Thoughts on conference

[Ahab]

34 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I can handle this for myself.

What I can't do is un-ring Pres. Oaks' bell that my 9 year old daughter heard on Saturday night.

I hope you will help to clarify things for her, if you see that she still has some questions about those issues, if you haven't already.  Home centered teaching is more about reinforcing Church teachings that trying to get people to ignore or avoid them.

34 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You're talking in circles again, Ahab.  Closer and closer to getting blocked for being such a phenomenal time-waster.

Interesting.  I never thought about repetition being a form of talking in circles, but I suppose it is in some sense.  I do repeat things a lot.  I can see that.  I could just say something once and then never say anything else about it again but I don't really like to do that.

I like repetition.  I like repeating what Church leaders have taught and what I have taught and continue to teach to try to share God's understanding of things as I understand what God understands.

You can ignore me if you want to, though.  I'll still have other people talk to.  I'll say goodbye to you now just in case that is what you decide to do.  Bye bye rockpond!  Have a good life!  Listen to your elders and keep trying to learn what is true.  I love you!

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Would you be disappointed if she decided not to cancel her sealing and therefore not be sealed to you?

Of course!  That would mean that I would not have her as my wife eternally, and that what we have would end at some point and that at some point she would be reunited with her first husband to have only him as her husband eternally.

That's why I asked her if she wanted to do that in the first place, instead of finding out later that she would rather choose him than choose me.  I was trying to avoid future disappointment.

So far so good, though.  She has told me that she would rather be sealed to me than to him if she can choose to be with only one of us as a husband, eternally.  I'm hoping I can always do whatever it takes to keep her happy with her decision(s).

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Of course!  That would mean that I would not have her as my wife eternally, and that what we have would end at some point and that at some point she would be reunited with her first husband to have only him as her husband eternally.

That's why I asked her if she wanted to do that in the first place, instead of finding out later that she would rather choose him than choose me.  I was trying to avoid future disappointment.

So far so good, though.  She has told me that she would rather be sealed to me than to him if she can choose to be with only one of us as a husband, eternally.  I'm hoping I can always do whatever it takes to keep her happy with her decision(s).

Women who are second wives often believe ( with good reason imo given how we usually talk about the dominance of the first wife in scripture and history as the first wife is the one who is to give input with her husband, such is not specified as required for other wives) their sealing is less than a first wife sealing.  They believe they will be subservient, be similar to a handmaid to the first wife as was Hagar to Sarah for example, rather than have as much input.  They often also have the view the husband's view dominates; if he doesn't care, then the first wife chooses; then if she doesn't care the second wife chooses, etc.  So they see themselves as generally voiceless for eternities or being disappointed their relationship is less than it could be if they were the only wife...similar to disappointment over not being sealed at all.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Calm

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

 

 

President Oaks' address did far more than mention homosexuality.

Thank you. You prompted me to listen to the talk myself rather than trust my wife's report. Our 10 year old was there with her. 

I don't get it. It was even better than I had expected. I don't know how a person could listen to his talk and think that he didn't think and pray deeply about his audience.  Further, to complain about the content. . . . I could only think of one reason why a person would not want that discussed: if they were waiting until their kids were older to try to undermine the teachings of the Church and are angry that those teachings were taught so clearly and unequivocally. I am NOT saying that is why you objected to them. That was just the only reason I could think of. 

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Women who are second wives often believe ( with good reason imo given how we usually talk about the dominance of the first wife in scripture and history as the first wife is the one who is to give input with her husband, such is not specified as required for other wives) their sealing is less than a first wife sealing.  They believe they will be subservient, be similar to a handmaid to the first wife as was Hagar to Sarah for example, rather than have as much input.  They often also have the view the husband's view dominates; if he doesn't care, then the first wife chooses; then if she doesn't care the second wife chooses, etc.  So they see themselves as generally voiceless for eternities.

Not sure how this would apply to me, or to her first husband either.  She is and would still be my first wife and if her husband marries again the first wife he gets sealed to, with no sealing in place, would be his first wife too.

If women know they are the second wife of some man who already has a first wife then I suppose they still accept the proposal to be a man's second wife knowing what you are talking about ???  I would think so.

But really since we're talking about wives of celestial glory, the absolute best of the best of all people who are qualified for that status above all lower level glories of heaven, even being second best while having celestial glory is a pretty good thing.  Which is why some women accept that, I suppose.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Ahab

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Thank you. You prompted me to listen to the talk myself rather than trust my wife's report. Our 10 year old was there with her. 

I don't get it. It was even better than I had expected. I don't know how a person could listen to his talk and think that he didn't think and pray deeply about his audience.  Further, to complain about the content. . . . I could only think of one reason why a person would not want that discussed: if they were waiting until their kids were older to try to undermine the teachings of the Church and are angry that those teachings were taught so clearly and unequivocally. I am NOT saying that is why you objected to them. That was just the only reason I could think of. 

As I said, my wife felt it was too early for the subject matter.  My wife has a degree in psychology and her comments to me were unsolicited.  I trust her opinion on this (as I do on most things).  Also, she does not share in my non-orthodox beliefs regarding homosexuality, she holds a traditional, orthodox belief on that matter.

So your hypothesis is wrong. 

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not sure how this would apply to me, or to her first husband either.  She is and would still be my first wife and if her husband marries again the first wife he gets sealed to, with no sealing in place, would be his first wife too.

If women know they are the second wife of some man who already has a first wife then I suppose they still accept the proposal to be a man's second wife knowing what you are talking about ???  I would think so.

But really since we're talking about wives of celestial glory, the absolute best of the best of all people who are qualified for that status above all lower level glories of heaven, even being second best while having celestial glory is a pretty good thing.  Which is why some women accept that, I suppose.

I am sorry, really sleepy and left off how I tied it together with your situation and possible disappointment.  Feel free to go back and reread with the addition.

Quote

even being second best while having celestial glory is a pretty good thing

Being told this by someone who will always be first somehow isn't always comforting to those in that position.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I don't get it. It was even better than I had expected. I don't know how a person could listen to his talk and think that he didn't think and pray deeply about his audience.  Further, to complain about the content. . . . I could only think of one reason why a person would not want that discussed: if they were waiting until their kids were older to try to undermine the teachings of the Church and are angry that those teachings were taught so clearly and unequivocally. I am NOT saying that is why you objected to them. That was just the only reason I could think of. 

Could be they just don't have a very good sense of when children are ready to hear certain aspects of the truth and God's understanding of things like that.  No evil intent, necessarily.  Just not a good judge or as good as they could be a judge of what their kids are ready to hear.

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

As I said, my wife felt it was too early for the subject matter.  My wife has a degree in psychology and her comments to me were unsolicited.  I trust her opinion on this (as I do on most things).  Also, she does not share in my non-orthodox beliefs regarding homosexuality, she holds a traditional, orthodox belief on that matter.

So your hypothesis is wrong. 

Your wife is certainly entitled to raise her daughter the way she believes is best. 

It is my opinion that 8 year old children need guidance on these matters.

[Jeanne]

50 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Of course!  That would mean that I would not have her as my wife eternally, and that what we have would end at some point and that at some point she would be reunited with her first husband to have only him as her husband eternally.

That's why I asked her if she wanted to do that in the first place, instead of finding out later that she would rather choose him than choose me.  I was trying to avoid future disappointment.

So far so good, though.  She has told me that she would rather be sealed to me than to him if she can choose to be with only one of us as a husband, eternally.  I'm hoping I can always do whatever it takes to keep her happy with her decision(s).

IMO....this conversation...and conversation with your wife is so.o.o. sad.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Jeanne

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Your wife is certainly entitled to raise her daughter the way she believes is best. 

It is my opinion that 8 year old children need guidance on these matters.

Not sure what you mean by this.  Obviously our children need guidance on these matters but as her parents, we are uniquely qualified to determine when it is best to talk with her about certain details. 

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Could be they just don't have a very good sense of when children are ready to hear certain aspects of the truth and God's understanding of things like that.  No evil intent, necessarily.  Just not a good judge or as good as they could be a judge of what their kids are ready to hear.

Right.  Whereas President Oaks who doesn’t know my daughter has a better sense?

Edited October 7, 2019 by rockpond

[kllindley]

16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

As I said, my wife felt it was too early for the subject matter.  My wife has a degree in psychology and her comments to me were unsolicited.  I trust her opinion on this (as I do on most things).  Also, she does not share in my non-orthodox beliefs regarding homosexuality, she holds a traditional, orthodox belief on that matter.

So your hypothesis is wrong. 

I am glad it is wrong. I just said it was the only explanation I could come up with. 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am sorry, really sleepy and left off how I tied it together with your situation and possible disappointment.  Feel free to go back and reread with the addition.

Being told this by someone who will always be first somehow isn't always comforting to those in that position.

My view of a celestial marriage, even when more than one wife is involved, is that it is the type of relationship where everybody involved in that marriage wants everybody in it to be happy... with nobody feeling like their say so is more important than someone else's say so in that marriage.

So let's pick a scenario and explore how it would work.  Maybe something like where to go to create a planet.

Someone in that marriage says something like: Hey look, there is matter unorganized.  Let's go and create a planet over there.

And then everybody in that marriage, and that family, goes there to create a planet. Even the bad kids who didn't really want to go down there in the first place.

I don't think there will be anyone in that celestial marriage who would say something like: But you picked where we were to go the last time!  It's my turn!  And I say we go over there to that matter that is unorganized!  So come and follow me!

Or how about another scenario, where someone in that type of marriage says something like: Hey lets make these flowers blue!  And those over there red!  And those over there yellow!

Everybody would get whatever they wanted!  There would be no need to settle on only one option.  And even when choosing where to go to create a planet, we could create many planets at the same time.  

Lots of ways wherein people who are married in a celestial glory type of marriage could make everybody else who has celestial glory happy.  The problems come in only when you have different levels of glory trying to all live together.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Not sure what you mean by this.  Obviously our children need guidance on these matters but as her parents, we are uniquely qualified to determine when it is best to talk with her about certain details. 

what age should they be invited to listen to the prophets talk about this issues, do you think?

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Right.  Whereas President Oaks who doesn’t know my daughter has a better sense?

Write him a letter. I'm curious to know how he would respond to your concern.  Seriously.

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Right.  Whereas President Oaks who doesn’t know my daughter has a better sense?

Would you like President Oaks to consult with you before addressing any topic?

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

what age should they be invited to listen to the prophets talk about this issues, do you think?

 

Personally I think that having the women’s session be 12+ (or those about to turn 12), like the priesthood session would be better.  Than I think it becomes a safe place to have messages like this.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Write him a letter. I'm curious to know how he would respond to your concern.  Seriously.

We’ve been asked not to do that. 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Would you like President Oaks to consult with you before addressing any topic?

Of course not.  I’ve offered me preferred solution.  Twice now. 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

what age should they be invited to listen to the prophets talk about this issues, do you think?

 

I think his point is that he wants to decide when and what they hear.  A control issue, if you were to ask me.

My point is that prophets are aware of their target audience and if their intended audience is women and girls age 8 and up then they seek inspiration about what to say to their intended audience.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

We’ve been asked not to do that. 

Really?  Okay.  How about one to the bishop, or just go and have a talk with him about  your concern.  Surely there is someone you can talk to without having to resort to only your own opinions.

[Rain]

17 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No one caught Elder Bednar’s pun? He compared the predatory behaviors of cheetahs as they hunt topis with Satan’s predations on unsuspecting human by quoting 2 Nephi 28:21....

Props to Sister Gui for catching this.

Apparently she is in good company.  

[rockpond]

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think his point is that he wants to decide when and what they hear.  A control issue, if you were to ask me.

Incorrect.  As a parent, I’d like to be the one to decide when it is most appropriate to have discussions about sex with each of my young children.  I think that is common among parents.  Our schools have to get a sign parent permission slip before broaching these subjects with our kids. 

43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

My point is that prophets are aware of their target audience and if their intended audience is women and girls age 8 and up then they seek inspiration about what to say to their intended audience.

And has been pointed out to you — they can also be wrong sometimes. 

[kllindley]

48 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Incorrect.  As a parent, I’d like to be the one to decide when it is most appropriate to have discussions about sex with each of my young children.  I think that is common among parents.  Our schools have to get a sign parent permission slip before broaching these subjects with our kids. 

And has been pointed out to you — they can also be wrong sometimes. 

If by sex, you mean the discussion that it takes a male and a female to have offspring, I am shocked that your 9 year old has no idea about that. That is what he said.  "That highest destiny is only possible through marriage for eternity. Eternal life includes the creative powers inherent in the combination of male and female.".