Thoughts on conference

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Found one of the papers I have mentioned.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/#!po=13.4146

Which suggests hormone blockers are probably not good for psychological health if puberty mitigates symptoms.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Plucked out of.......................thin air.

That one certainly seemed that way.  Most of the time I can see where leaps have been made (someone is interpreting a position as more extreme than actually stated usually, sometimes assuming someone is responding to the same subtopics one is focused on when they are in another part of a multilevel multiperson discussion).

Edited October 9, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Which suggests hormone blockers are probably not good for psychological health if puberty mitigates symptoms.

Yep.  They need to do some major studies imo so they can be very secure in their predictions of who will persist before assuming they will and treating as if they will with lifealtering treatments...the treatment itself likely would contribute to persisting I am speculating.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was not suggesting that you were discussing the news stories (I figured it came from your background) but the news tends to pick up on the most extreme cases. I was just saying a lot of the pressure is more subtle.

But yeah it is disturbing when parents try to mold their children’s identity at that level for their own ego. It is not new either.

If anyone wants some nightmare fuel of child abuse have some courtesy of the most radical nuts in the 1968 German Student Movement.

Warning! This is horrifying: 

https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

 

I can certify that this was a major objective of the left.  Anyone who lived through those years can remember the ideal was to "get rid of hang ups" which were seen as bourgeois conditioning that had to disappear.  I remember even showering was considered a bourgeois throwback that denied taking joy in our natural odors and pheromones.  These habits and hang ups had to be stripped from children lest they be conditioned into incorrect counter-revolutionary ways of thinking.  Communal thinking was correct thinking and anything from the bankrupt "pig" culture was to be stamped out.   If it feels good, do it.

I was in Europe in 1968 and it was going on in France as well, as well as here in the USA with the SDS

Disgusting.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If anyone wants some nightmare fuel of child abuse have some courtesy of the most radical nuts in the 1968 German Student Movement.

Anyone who has ever read Kinsey will realise that this was part of the Sexual Revolution from the very beginning.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 hours ago, ttribe said:

Uggh...you are CFR-ing an OPINION.  Geez, the whole purpose of a CFR is to get a reference for items presented as fact that can be checked independently; opinions are clearly not that.  

You are right about CFR-ing an opinion. That has happened to me a few times — enough for me to understand how aggravating it is. On those occasions, I typically respond that I am the reference for my own opinion. 
 

To her credit, Rain removed the CFR from her post. And she was right to point out that Tacenda probably lacks the background or inside knowledge to react in such a shrill manner about the placement of temples in Utah. By her own admission, Tacenda was triggered by complaining she had seen elsewhere. 
 

One of the factors that goes into the decision about temple placement is the temple usage (or potential usage) in a given area. My recollection is that President Hinckley, speaking at the groundbreaking for the Draper Utah Temple, addressed the question of why another temple in the Salt Lake Valley. He indicated it was to relieve pressure on the Jordan River Temple. It’s a safe assumption that the same reasoning applied to the nearby Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple. It makes little sense to continue with overcrowding in a temple when the means (and willing donors) are available to build an additional facility to meet demand. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

No, it was not that it was odd to you or even you were wondering what they were doing there.  It is that you went to the negative option first in your wondering:

Quote

 -- I got the possibly incorrect feeling that they were trolling for negativereactions.

I see what you're saying, and you may have a point.   Thanks for that.

But it did kind of look like they were parading around deliberately.  Facial expressions, the way they held themselves.  Which completely disappeared once they sat down in the food court and out of the limelight. I realize that we're not allowed to have such feelings, or if we do, we must never admit to having them.  The men in question looked pretty much unexceptionable and likeable -- I wish social mores would have permitted me to stop and talk with them to find out how things were going.  But total strangers?  It would probably have been taken wrong.

I guess I must admit to being a closet Islamophobe.  Who knew?

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You have a history here with how you talk about Islam.

I do?  Is it Islam that I have the problem with?  Or the extremists who murder people in the name of Allah?  I think it's the latter; and I don't believe that can fairly be labeled "Islamophobia".  You're free to disagree of course.

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Pretending the reactions to your comment have no backstory and comes from a tabula rasa assumption is disingenuous.

Was Rain as aware as you of that backstory?  How prevalent is the knowledge of my backstory?  Everyone is aware of it?  I actually wasn't pretending, I just didn't know I was that well known.  My mild attention deficit causes me to more forgetful than the norm, so perhaps you're right.  Memory must be long, then.  Mine is clearly not be as keen as that of others.  Like I said, I might as well as admit to the Islamophobia and go whole hog on it.  Wouldn't want to be disingenuous.

So if changed is known for believing every bishop is a potential pederast, and you are known for a stellar sense of humor, then I can be the forum's semi-official Islamophobe.

 

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Utah has too many temples, IMO. Where we have members saving money and spending nearly all of it just to travel to the temple to marry or take their endowments out. These are usually the poorest members among us. But here in Utah we have how many temples within just a few miles? It's ludicrous. Build smaller temples nearer to those that aren't fortunate enough to have the money to travel long distances. Whomever is making these poor decisions, because our church is also a corporation, need to have their heads examined.

Do you know how many temple recommend holding members are necessary to staff a temple?  What is the number of temple workers that need to be available each week to keep a temple open?  What are the different laws and restrictions, and requirements that each country has, that the church has to follow, to be able to build a temple in that nation?  

I know your expressing your opinion here, and you have that right, but is your opinion on this matter supported by evidence?  What information are you using the base your opinion on?  

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Anyone who has ever read Kinsey will realise that this was part of the Sexual Revolution from the very beginning.

Elements of it. In the German article I posted it was a subfaction of the socialist/anti-Vietnam movement.

It was a naive time. The belief that a little fresh air about our inhibitions would fix everything has popped up throughout history.

https://xkcd.com/592/

These movements always fail because humans are more complicated then that. People quickly realize we keep sexual relations under restrictions because no one likes the results when we do not. Polyamory is regularly derided even in many more leftist spheres as unworkable (though some still try it of course) and the libertarian version largely died with Ayn Rand’s solemn pronouncements about everyone seeking their best sexual interest and choosing her partners but going jealously nuts when one of her boytoys dumped her for someone else.

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You live in a very different social world to the one I occupy! Not a single day would go by that I don't see people in all kinds of dress that is influenced by religion or culture: Islamic veils of various kinds; Sikh turbans; men in robes, tunics and/or formal pyjamas; women in saris; etc. My rabbi friend has a long beard and forelocks and dresses in a long black overcoat. We have a Nigerian brother at church whose Sunday best looks very much like this:

You have a substantial advantage over me.  Olympia, Washington is quite a politically liberal city, but nevertheless, virtually nobody dresses in anything other than standard American dress.  You are free to believe that it should have been no surprise to see a group of men walking around a shopping mall in such clothing.

Quote

 

When I entered the temple on Saturday for my shift, I passed a group of men who were leaving, all of them wearing formal sarongs.

That's wonderful.  You live a cosmopolitan city.  Where I am from is almost prototypical Little America.  People don't dress like that there.

I suppose it may change where I live now -- though the diversity is still not like where you live. Last week when I was at the recommend desk at the London temple, a couple from Ghana came in. They were wearing pretty much what everyone else wears here.  But if they had been in Ghanian traditional clothing it wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest.  It might have been notable, but not exceptionable.  It wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest.

I say again, the men at the mall were wearing highly unusual clothing for the area.  Something I had never seen in my town before.  But it's clear that my surprise and curiosity (unexpressed at the time) is morally wrong, given all the remarks here in response.

Quote

What makes you assume that doing so requires 'a huge amount of trouble'? Or is intended to draw attention?

I was there.  I saw them.  You were not.  If they had been dressed in tuxes and tails they would have drawn attention, too.  It was absolutely attention-getting apparel.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I see that I am creating an impression that I did not intend to create.  I apologize for this.  

I shall bow out of the conversation.  

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you know how many temple recommend holding members are necessary to staff a temple?  What is the number of temple workers that need to be available each week to keep a temple open?  What are the different laws and restrictions, and requirements that each country has, that the church has to follow, to be able to build a temple in that nation?  

I know your expressing your opinion here, and you have that right, but is your opinion on this matter supported by evidence?  What information are you using the base your opinion on?  

I may just have to call church headquarters for that. It wouldn't be the first time. Or I could reach out to a former neighbor who I am FB friends with that was in the temple building department, he actually told my husband years ago that there is no budget when it came to temples, haha.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I may just have to call church headquarters for that. It wouldn't be the first time. Or I could reach out to a former neighbor who I am FB friends with that was in the temple building department, he actually told my husband years ago that there is no budget when it came to temples, haha.

Doubt this, I know of one architect who was fired for going way over budget in his temple design.

[The Nehor]

I also would like to applaud President Uchtdorf’s Hobbit talk. My nieces and nephew (ages 9 and down) have all heard the book and the rest of the Lord of the Rings read to them by their dad (I filled in for part of it when I would babysit). As soon as he started talking about the book they all (except the youngest) turned and stared at the screen and listened attentively except for the occasional laugh about the pocket handkerchief and other details.

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I also would like to applaud President Uchtdorf’s Hobbit talk. My nieces and nephew (ages 9 and down) have all heard the book and the rest of the Lord of the Rings read to them by their dad (I filled in for part of it when I would babysit). As soon as he started talking about the book they all (except the youngest) turned and stared at the screen and listened attentively except for the occasional laugh about the pocket handkerchief and other details.

That was the talk that I happened to study in my personal time this morning.  I love his approach to teaching the plan of salvation and encouraging missionary work.  Inspiring for me.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Doubt this, I know of one architect who was fired for going way over budget in his temple design.

Maybe it's changed since then. This would have been back in the 90's. And he definitely could have been exaggerating. 

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's changed since then. This would have been back in the 90's. And he definitely could have been exaggerating. 

Story I heard was in ‘99 if I remember right. I am sure it was exaggeration. Temples are very expensive but no one is going to hand anyone a blank check for one.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Doubt this, I know of one architect who was fired for going way over budget in his temple design.

I remember Pres. Eyring iirc (an apostle for sure, pretty sure it was in a temple dedication session in the past ten years) mentioning he was pulled in to see the budget was met for the LA Temple .(that might be off as well...really don't trust my memory today) and being very nervous about the job.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's changed since then. This would have been back in the 90's. And he definitely could have been exaggerating. 

The Apostle I referred to was a junior Apostle at the time, so unlikely.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Calm

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Elements of it. In the German article I posted it was a subfaction of the socialist/anti-Vietnam movement.

It was a naive time. The belief that a little fresh air about our inhibitions would fix everything has popped up throughout history.

https://xkcd.com/592/

These movements always fail because humans are more complicated then that. People quickly realize we keep sexual relations under restrictions because no one likes the results when we do not. Polyamory is regularly derided even in many more leftist spheres as unworkable (though some still try it of course) and the libertarian version largely died with Ayn Rand’s solemn pronouncements about everyone seeking their best sexual interest and choosing her partners but going jealously nuts when one of her boytoys dumped her for someone else.

I agree. I believe that many communes failed because social constraints on sex and personal relationships were removed. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I remember Pres. Eyring iirc (an apostle for sure, pretty sure it was in a temple dedication session in the past ten years) mentioning he was pulled in to see the budget was met for the LA Temple .(that might be off as well...really don't trust my memory today) and being very nervous about the job.

I have heard some stories of Seventies screwing up in temple construction. My favorite one was the marble in the Preston England Temple was supposedly supposed to be more white. They are just rumors though and I could not substantiate any of them so I assume they are probably false.

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I may just have to call church headquarters for that. It wouldn't be the first time. Or I could reach out to a former neighbor who I am FB friends with that was in the temple building department, he actually told my husband years ago that there is no budget when it came to temples, haha.

So without that basic information, how did you come to the conclusion that the people who are making the decisions on temple placement are making poor decisions?  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So without that basic information, how did you come to the conclusion that the people who are making the decisions on temple placement are making poor decisions?  

It's a given to me, in my heart/mind. It's an opinion, that the church needs to figure out a way for those that are sacrificing so much more than the rest of us to attend, and the temples need not be the cost that so many temples have been or as large, in fact make them the size of a small chapel! ETA: I don't care if they go to the temple, I care that they think they have to go and will do anything to get there. 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 I don't care if they go to the temple, I care that they think they have to go and will do anything to get there. 

 

So, your priorities are different than their priorities, and they shouldn't be?  Why is that?  Why should you, or anyone else, get the opportunity to determine their priorities?