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Logic and Reason - Alma, Paul, President Nelson


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Alma chapter 42 - 74 BC

Mormon chapter 9 - About A.D. 401–21.

President Nelson - 2019

----

not sure if using logic is simply another teaching method or a method used when the Savior's earthly visit was too close for comfort (Alma, Paul) are nearing. 

Since there won't be another Apostasy, is President Nelson trying to reason and use logic with a generation who might be harder to reach using any other teaching method?

Second Coming instead of apostasy possible within maybe 100 years?  probably not?

 

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20 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Alma chapter 42 - 74 BC

Mormon chapter 9 - About A.D. 401–21.

President Nelson - 2019

----

not sure if using logic is simply another teaching method or a method used when the Savior's earthly visit was too close for comfort (Alma, Paul) are nearing. 

Since there won't be another Apostasy, is President Nelson trying to reason and use logic with a generation who might be harder to reach using any other teaching method?

Second Coming instead of apostasy possible within maybe 100 years?  probably not?

Not sure what this thread is about:  logic & reason?  God expects us to use our brains effectively.  That is part of our experiential, temporal, probationary test here below.  God cannot be God if He does not obey natural law.

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On 9/30/2019 at 3:38 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Since there won't be another Apostasy, is President Nelson trying to reason and use logic with a generation who might be harder to reach using any other teaching method?

Second Coming instead of apostasy possible within maybe 100 years?  probably not?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 mentions another great apostasy before the Second Coming.

Thanks,
Jim

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Please clarify the point of this thread by using full sentences, to make it logical and reasonable  :)

 

 

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On 10/5/2019 at 12:54 PM, theplains said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 mentions another great apostasy before the Second Coming.

Actually, that great apostasy is something that Paul said would happen between the time of writing his letter, and the Second Coming.  That already happened, right after the apostles "departed", just as Paul said it would (Acts 20:29-31).  And right within the context of the verses you reference (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12), in verse 7, Paul said that the cause of the great apostasy was already beginning:  2 Th 2:7  "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

One of the many reasons we know that there won't be another great apostasy (for the church) is because Daniel 2 says the "stone" that was cut out of the mountain without hands (the Kingdom of God that would roll forth during the time of the kingdoms of the feet and toes, of the iron mixed with clay) would be one that "shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people" (Dan 2:44).  In other words, it's not going away.

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On 10/1/2019 at 1:13 PM, Maidservant said:

Deleted, wrong thread.

Did it matter?

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On 9/30/2019 at 3:38 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Alma chapter 42 - 74 BC

Mormon chapter 9 - About A.D. 401–21.

President Nelson - 2019

----

not sure if using logic is simply another teaching method or a method used when the Savior's earthly visit was too close for comfort (Alma, Paul) are nearing. 

Since there won't be another Apostasy, is President Nelson trying to reason and use logic with a generation who might be harder to reach using any other teaching method?

Second Coming instead of apostasy possible within maybe 100 years?  probably not?

 

If he is trying he is failing miserably especially after that recent BYU talk.

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On 10/10/2019 at 10:46 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, that great apostasy is something that Paul said would happen between the time of writing his letter, and the Second Coming.  That already happened, right after the apostles "departed", just as Paul said it would (Acts 20:29-31).  And right within the context of the verses you reference (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12), in verse 7, Paul said that the cause of the great apostasy was already beginning:  2 Th 2:7  "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

What is your understanding of verses 8-9?

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and
shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders

Thanks,
Jim

 

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7 hours ago, theplains said:

What is your understanding of verses 8-9?

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and
shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders

I see verses 8 and 9 as the second coming triumph of Jesus over the works of Satan and all who follow him (the "lawless" ones).   Satan is the “man of sin”, “the son of perdition”, whose works will be destroyed at the coming of Christ.   (Isaiah 14:15-17 also refers to Satan in similar terms).    From the point of view of Paul’s time and place,  it is Satan “who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time is fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.” (2 Thes 2:7, JST).  He is taken out of the way at the second coming.  And the great apostasy was something that happened early on in his "workings", shortly after the departure of the apostles.

 

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On 10/1/2019 at 12:10 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Not sure what this thread is about:  logic & reason?  God expects us to use our brains effectively.  That is part of our experiential, temporal, probationary test here below.  God cannot be God if He does not obey natural law.

 

On 10/5/2019 at 3:54 PM, theplains said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 mentions another great apostasy before the Second Coming.

Thanks,
Jim

 

On 10/6/2019 at 2:42 PM, mfbukowski said:

Please clarify the point of this thread by using full sentences, to make it logical and reasonable  :)

 

 

 

On 10/10/2019 at 10:46 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, that great apostasy is something that Paul said would happen between the time of writing his letter, and the Second Coming.  That already happened, right after the apostles "departed", just as Paul said it would (Acts 20:29-31).  And right within the context of the verses you reference (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12), in verse 7, Paul said that the cause of the great apostasy was already beginning:  2 Th 2:7  "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

One of the many reasons we know that there won't be another great apostasy (for the church) is because Daniel 2 says the "stone" that was cut out of the mountain without hands (the Kingdom of God that would roll forth during the time of the kingdoms of the feet and toes, of the iron mixed with clay) would be one that "shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people" (Dan 2:44).  In other words, it's not going away.

 

On 10/11/2019 at 1:38 AM, sunstoned said:

I might be slow on the uptake, but I don't understand the OP.  What is the connection with Alma, Mormon and Nelson?

 

On 10/12/2019 at 3:39 PM, Teancum said:

If he is trying he is failing miserably especially after that recent BYU talk.

 

On 10/14/2019 at 1:03 PM, theplains said:

What is your understanding of verses 8-9?

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and
shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders

Thanks,
Jim

 

-

Sorry for the confusion.

Alma and Paul used logic as a teaching method during times that were within 100 years of the Savior physically appearing on earth.

Is President Nelson doing the same thing? Not in relation to the First Vision, but in relation to the Second Coming.

 

 

Edited by nuclearfuels
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Oops. Error

Edited by mfbukowski
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Sorry. Still confused.

Are you asking if president Nelson is using logic?

Or are you asking us to predict if the second coming will be within 100 years?

Not sure what kind of issues you were speaking about logic and his use of it, nor why it is important if we are with a hundred years of the second coming.

I enjoy your posts and I like the things you say but I'm sorry it's just not communicating this time, at least for me.

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On 10/14/2019 at 9:00 PM, InCognitus said:

I see verses 8 and 9 as the second coming triumph of Jesus over the works of Satan and all who follow him (the "lawless" ones).   Satan is the “man of sin”, “the son of perdition”, whose works will be destroyed at the coming of Christ.   (Isaiah 14:15-17 also refers to Satan in similar terms).    From the point of view of Paul’s time and place,  it is Satan “who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time is fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.” (2 Thes 2:7, JST).  He is taken out of the way at the second coming.  And the great apostasy was something that happened early on in his "workings", shortly after the departure of the apostles.

 

Regarding verse 7 - "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he
be taken out of the way."

I believe the "he" is the Holy Spirit.  When he and his restraining power is taken away, then Satan (the man
of sin) will be revealed with all his powers and lying signs and wonders; with which he will deceive those
on the earth.

Jim

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Regarding verse 7 - "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he
be taken out of the way."

I believe the "he" is the Holy Spirit.  When he and his restraining power is taken away, then Satan (the man
of sin) will be revealed with all his powers and lying signs and wonders; with which he will deceive those
on the earth.

I believe that Jesus allowed the restraining power of the Holy Spirit to be taken away when so many of the faithful saints were martyred after the deaths of the apostles, when wolves entered into the flock and there began to be strife over the office of bishop.   This was the beginning of the great apostasy.  The Spirit was withdrawn from the church among men, and the church went into the “wilderness” for a period of time.

So do you view the Holy Spirit as continuing in the church after the time of the deaths of the apostles and martyrdom of the saints and all the other events of the centuries that followed, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 refers to a future events?    Obviously the return of Jesus is a future event, but what about the rest?

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10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Alma and Paul used logic as a teaching method during times that were within 100 years of the Savior physically appearing on earth.

Is President Nelson doing the same thing? Not in relation to the First Vision, but in relation to the Second Coming.

It seems to me that all the prophets and apostles have used logic and reason to some extent.  Paul was an educated Jew and was trained in logic and reason, and so that shows more in his writings than in some other writers, perhaps. 

Similarly, President Nelson's background as a heart surgeon helps him view the principles of the gospel in a unique way, and that comes across in his methods of teaching.

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On 10/5/2019 at 12:54 PM, theplains said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 mentions another great apostasy before the Second Coming.

Thanks,
Jim

You might look at what the Father commanded his son to teach about this issue in 3 Nephi 16 . Read Moroni's vision of the members of the Church in the last days in Mormon 8 and  Nephi's similar condemnation of us in 2Nephi 28 and the doctrine of the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled before you conclude there can't be an apostasy. Why does Moroni accuse us ( the latter day Gentiles who are reading his book) of corrupting the Holy church of God ? You also might read Josephs last vision given the night before he was killed contained in "Teachings" which also suggests an apostasy.

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On 10/16/2019 at 12:57 AM, InCognitus said:

So do you view the Holy Spirit as continuing in the church after the time of the deaths of the apostles and martyrdom of the saints and all the other events of the centuries that followed, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 refers to a future events?    Obviously the return of Jesus is a future event, but what about the rest?

I believe in the promise of Jesus. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
."  The 1997 version of Gospel Principles
said the church of Christ was destroyed.

The Holy Spirit continued as Jesus continued to build his church throughout the centuries.

There was apostasy in the days of the apostles, but 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to a great apostasy
by the man of sin (with his great deceptive power and signs and wonders - v9).

Jim

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9 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe in the promise of Jesus. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
." 

I believe that too, but this is certainly not saying that the church would never die, but only that the "gates of hades" would not prevail against it.  What are the "gates of hades"? 

Strongs word 86. haides, hah'-dace; from G1 (as a neg. particle) and G1492; prop. unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell.

Hades is the grave, the abode of the dead.  The gates of hades cannot prevail against individuals in the church, because Jesus overcame death by the resurrection.  And collectively the church as an organized body established by Jesus, it is built upon the "rock" of revelation, and the church can be "resurrected" so to speak, and restored by heavenly intervention, just as was done in 1830 to the prophet Joseph Smith.   So the gates of hades have not prevailed against the church, it has been fully restored.

9 hours ago, theplains said:

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles
said the church of Christ was destroyed.

I think the Gospel Principles manual says something slightly different than that.  But the implication of Daniel chapter 2 is that the church and kingdom established during the time of the Roman empire (the legs of iron in the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream - Dan 2:33) was one that was "destroyed" and "left to other people", because it says (in verse 44) that the kingdom that rolls forth later on, "in the days of these kings", the kingdoms of the the feet and toes of iron mixed with clay (Daniel 2:43) is the one that "shall never be destroyed" and "not be left to other people".

I would say the church at the time of Christ was never technically "destroyed", but Revelation chapter 12 says it went into the "wilderness" for a period of time.  It was taken away from among the people until the restoration.  And it was certainly given to other people:  Matt 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

10 hours ago, theplains said:

There was apostasy in the days of the apostles, but 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to a great apostasy
by the man of sin (with his great deceptive power and signs and wonders - v9).

Do you agree that Paul was saying that the man of sin (and his lawlessness) was already at work in 2 Thessalonians verse 7?  If so, what is that referring to?

 

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On 10/23/2019 at 4:02 PM, theplains said:

I believe in the promise of Jesus. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
."  The 1997 version of Gospel Principles
said the church of Christ was destroyed.

The Holy Spirit continued as Jesus continued to build his church throughout the centuries.

There was apostasy in the days of the apostles, but 2 Thessalonians 2 refers to a great apostasy
by the man of sin (with his great deceptive power and signs and wonders - v9).

Jim

We interpret the scripture differently. We believe that it is literally talking about the gates of hell.

Revelations 1:18

""18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.""

The Apostles Creed and the Athanasian Creed both say that after the resurrection Christ "descended into hell" to free the righteous people who died before his Resurrection and were awaiting him in the bosom of Abraham, the place the righteous went awaiting big freed from Hades.

Because Christ had the keys to the gates of Hades or hell, he passed that priesthood Authority onto his church, and so  the gates of hell could not Prevail against his church, and this is what he was talking about to Peter.

This is also part of the promise that enables us to do work for the Dead.

So that statement is not about the apostasy but is about being able to open the gates of hell for work for the Dead.

Here is more about various Traditions both scriptural add made up collectively described as the "Harrowing of the Dead".

It is a long-standing Christian idea.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

In that article note the first illustration where Christ is physically Breaking Down the Walls of hell and allowing the dead people to come out. 

Something tells me no Mormon drew this picture.  :)  Doesn't look to me like the gates are exactly "prevailing" against Christ, nor do they prevail against his church, just as he told Peter.

 

Harrowhell.jpg   

Also for Endowed LDS folks I find this one fascinating, it is said in the Apochrypha that Christ "gripped" the Patriarch Adam by the hand and raised him up out of the Bosom of Abraham.   And here is a painting illustrating that tradition.  The wounds of Christ are vividly portrayed

250px-Harrowing_of_hell_Christ_leads_Adam_by_the_hand._On_scroll_in_border%2C_the_motto_%27Entre_tenir_Dieu_le_viuelle%27_%28f._125%29_Cropped.jpg

Edited by mfbukowski
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37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We interpret the scripture differently. We believe that it is literally talking about the gates of hell.

Revelations 1:18

""18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.""

The Apostles Creed and the Athanasian Creed both say that after the resurrection Christ "descended into hell" to free the righteous people who died before his Resurrection and were awaiting him in the bosom of Abraham, the place the righteous went awaiting big freed from Hades.

Because Christ had the keys to the gates of Hades or hell, he passed that priesthood Authority onto his church, and so  the gates of hell could not Prevail against his church, and this is what he was talking about to Peter.

This is also part of the promise that enables us to do work for the Dead.

So that statement is not about the apostasy but is about being able to open the gates of hell for work for the Dead.

Nicely said. 

The English translation of Hades as "hell" causes a lot of misconceptions, in my opinion.  It's too easy to put it in the same box as the other (primarily) Greek word translated as "hell" that refers to something totally different, associated with the devil and his works and all that goes along with that.  Hades is a temporary place, all because of what the Savior did to open the gates of Hades to free the captives.

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1 minute ago, InCognitus said:

Nicely said. 

The English translation of Hades as "hell" causes a lot of misconceptions, in my opinion.  It's too easy to put it in the same box as the other (primarily) Greek word translated as "hell" that refers to something totally different, associated with the devil and his works and all that goes along with that.  Hades is a temporary place, all because of what the Savior did to open the gates of Hades to free the captives.

Yes, I am far from an expert but in my understanding, it depicts the "underworld" - in Latin infernos,  which I understand was simply the realm of the dead, including both the righteous and the wicked.   The righteous were said to be in "the Bosom of Abraham" described a little in the story of Dives and Lazarus, while the wicked were not, paralleling our belief in Paradise and Spirit Prison.

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On 10/24/2019 at 5:18 AM, InCognitus said:

I think the Gospel Principles manual says something slightly different than that.

As mentioned in the 1997 version:

"The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and 
more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete.
The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great 
Apostasy
."

I believe that the kingdom of the 10 toes is a future revival of the Roman Empire; partly strongly,
partly weak.  Some have referenced this as the same kingdom of Revelation 17:12-14.

Do you agree that Paul was saying that the man of sin (and his lawlessness) was already at work in 2 Thessalonians verse 7?  If so, what is that referring to?


2 Thessalonians 2:7 - "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth 
will let, until he be taken out of the way
.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume 
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
"

The man of sin is not referenced in verse 7, but iniquity is always there; caused by Satan. I believe
this man of sin will be revealed in the future when the Holy Spirit is taken away (v. 7).  The Holy
Spirit is the restraining influence.  The man of sin will deceive people with "all power and signs and
lying wonders."  He will be destroyed at the Second Coming.

Thanks,
Jim

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