Meadowchik Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ahab said: What seems to be isn't always so, though, and while I think there may be other forms of life than the ones that are or have been on this planet I don't think there is an infinity of different kinds of beings. A lot, though. Just more of the same of whatever there is. Considering that eternity has existed forever I seriously doubt you're ever going to discover some new creature that has never existed before. In fact I doubt that so much that I would say it could never happen. I think it is more prudent to err on the side of skepticism. What is there to lose? But is there to lose by false certainty? I think this does relate to happiness, btw. Sometimes the best contribution to happiness is learning and sometimes the best news in life is to discover one has been incorrect. Link to comment
pogi Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: I thought I had made it clear that I did understand you? How can you be certain? It seems clear to me, you don't. 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: My point is that... Your point has nothing to do with my point, which is why I am confident you don't understand what I am saying. 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: it is WRONG for anyone to think that there is something that I can not experience. I am not talking about what is possible within the realms of your experience, I am talking about escaping your experience. Drop the possessive pronouns that you keep linking to experience and you might start to understand what I am talking about. If you are not experiencing the experience (external to you), then it cannot be you who is experiencing it. Edited September 27, 2019 by pogi Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I think it is more prudent to err on the side of skepticism. What is there to lose? But is there to lose by false certainty? I think intelligent and good ideas should be accepted when you can see how intelligent and good they are. Seriously, considering that eternity has been around forever, what makes you think some new kind of thing could ever pop up? Do you think there needed to be more time than there is in eternity for that creature to develop? Or that no person ever thought of making something until some particular person thought of it? As I see things, there has never been anything on this planet that hasn't also existed on some other planet before. Even Dr. Pepper, which I like, is not a recently new creation. On this planet, yes, but it has existed before on other planets, and there are other planets where they are drinking Dr. Pepper right now. All of the varieties we have and probably even more, if there are any more that are worth making. Maybe you'd like to try to create a new kind of Dr. Pepper but even if you do it will still be just another kind of Dr. Pepper. Even if you don't call it Dr. Pepper. And yes I do realize that this idea I have is fairly uncommon on this planet but I'm sure there are others who have thought about this before, even other people on other planets that are out there. You do realize there are other planets out there with people living on them, don't you? Even if you haven't seen any yet, you can bank on the idea that they are out there. We're talking about eternity here. Lots of stuff out there. An infinity of things, all out there in what we refer to as the universe, the one place where every other place exists. Quote I think this does relate to happiness, btw. Sometimes the best contribution to happiness is learning and sometimes the best news in life is to discover one has been incorrect. Yep. Just takes time sometimes to realize what is right and what is wrong. And seeking out answers is a good way to find them if you know who you can trust to tell you. Edited September 27, 2019 by Ahab Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, pogi said: To escape your experience would not be you anymore who is experiencing it, and therefore is not possible for you to experience. You don't seem to realize that I can change. YOU may think it's always been the same old me but I am telling you that I can actually change. I can become a new creature, a new creation. I have done it before and I can do it again. Maybe you just need to expand your ideas and change yourself by making yourself stop thinking in the same old way that you seem to be thinking right now. You can change your mind and your whole self can be changed too. You don't need to remain as you are. That is your choice, if you want to choose to stay as you are. Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: I think intelligent and good ideas should be accepted when you can see how intelligent and good they are. Seriously, considering that eternity has been around forever, what makes you think some new kind of thing could ever pop up? Do you think there needed to be more time than there is in eternity for that creature to develop? Or that no person ever thought of making something until some particular person thought of it? As I see things, there has never been anything on this planet that hasn't also existed on some other planet before. Even Dr. Pepper, which I like, is not a recently new creation. On this planet, yet, but it has existed before on other planets, and there are other planets where they are drinking Dr. Pepper right now. All of the varieties we have and probably even more, if there are any more that are worth making. Maybe you'd like to try to create a new kind of Dr. Pepper but even if you do it will still be just another kind of Dr. Pepper. Even if you don't call it Dr. Pepper. And yes I do realize that this idea I have is fairly uncommon on this planet but I'm sure there are others who have thought about this before, even other people on other planets that are out there. You do realize there are other planets out there with people living on them, don't you? Even if you haven't seen any yet, you can bank on the idea that they are out there. We're talking about eternity here. Lots of stuff out there. An infinity of things, all out there in what we refer to as the universe, the one place where every other place exists. Yep. Just takes time sometimes to realize what is right and what is wrong. And seeking out answers is a good way to find them if you know who you can trust to tell you. I just happened to pour a Dr Pepper before opening this message No, I do not agree with the idea that any thing is only a repeat of something else. Souls are a good example, spirit children would be another. Link to comment
pogi Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: I can become a new creature, a new creation. I have done it before and I can do it again. You have never not been you, and you never will be anything other than you. There may be attributes about you that may change, but you will still be you. Even those who believe in reincarnation believe that the new creature is still them. You can't escape yourself. Sorry. And Bye, I'm done. Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I just happened to pour a Dr Pepper before opening this message Cherry vanilla is my favorite. Preferably diet and caffeine free. 😊 9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: No, I do not agree with the idea that any thing is only a repeat of something else. Souls are a good example, spirit children would be another. All souls are of a particular kind of being, though. People have people souls. Rabbits have rabbit souls. Giraffes have giraffe souls. Etc. Each kind of being having its own kind of soul. Actually I think of a soul as either a spirit or the combination of both the spirit and body together, so I would usually say spirits rather than souls. But yes each kind of being having its own kind of offspring. And we are the children of someone who is our kind of being. Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, pogi said: You have never not been you, and you never will be anything other than you. There may be attributes about you that may change, but you will still be you. Even those who believe in reincarnation believe that the new creature is still them. You can't escape yourself. Sorry. And Bye, I'm done. Then what do you make of Jesus saying through Paul that we can become a new creature? 2 Corinthians 5:17 Bye bye. Have fun. I'll probably see you later, regardless of what you have become when I see you again. Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 47 minutes ago, Ahab said: Cherry vanilla is my favorite. Preferably diet and caffeine free. 😊 All souls are of a particular kind of being, though. People have people souls. Rabbits have rabbit souls. Giraffes have giraffe souls. Etc. Each kind of being having its own kind of soul. Actually I think of a soul as either a spirit or the combination of both the spirit and body together, so I would usually say spirits rather than souls. But yes each kind of being having its own kind of offspring. And we are the children of someone who is our kind of being. And yet each being is unique. More unique than Dr. Pepper flavours ( Dr Pepper always reminds me of childhood sleepovers at my Grandma's, another reason I like it.) Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: And yet each being is unique. More unique than Dr. Pepper flavours ( Dr Pepper always reminds me of childhood sleepovers at my Grandma's, another reason I like it.) Not really. Each person is a separate person, but the more you get to know people the more you get to know there are only so many personality types and only so many types of experiences that any person can experience, so while it is true that there are all kinds of people among the finite number of the kinds of people there are, each person is a particular kind of person who has experienced a finite number of particular kinds of experiences. Still a lot of kinds, though, but only a finite number of kinds. Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Not really. Each person is a separate person, but the more you get to know people the more you get to know there are only so many personality types and only so many types of experiences that any person can experience, so while it is true that there are all kinds of people among the finite number of the kinds of people there are, each person is a particular kind of person who has experienced a finite number of particular kinds of experiences. Still a lot of kinds, though, but only a finite number of kinds. Nope. That's not what the numbers imply. Every person is different with completely unique experiences and thus perspectives. Uniqueness of persons is analogous to uniqueness of situations in the universe, which have the potential to produce uncountably infinite situations and thus things to be known. I think your insistence to reduce persons to types is unfortunate. Typing IS useful on a limited basis, but it's not absolutely description of the individual. Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Nope. That's not what the numbers imply. Every person is different with completely unique experiences and thus perspectives. Uniqueness of persons is analogous to uniqueness of situations in the universe, which have the potential to produce uncountably infinite situations and thus things to be known. I think your insistence to reduce persons to types is unfortunate. Typing IS useful on a limited basis, but it's not absolutely description of the individual. I would suggest you are making that up but I know there are certain kinds of people who would agree with what you are saying. And yes some of them also use math to try to prove their ideas are true. But in math there are things called imaginary numbers, and the fact that you can show something with math does not prove it is true in reality. That's like thinking that just because something is logical that it must therefore be true. And I hope you do not believe that. And since I didn't make this clear before I should mention that I'm not talking about birthdays and the names of things. I'm basically saying that all of the people who have ever lived on this planet have gone through only so many types of experiences, regardless of when they were born and what their name was or the names of their parents. And whether they had computers or not to help them make calculations. There are only so many types of experiences and there are only so many personality types, with there always being an opposition in all things. Either good or bad. Right or wrong. A disciple of Jesus Christ or not. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) On 9/25/2019 at 7:10 PM, Coop said: Funny story. I just read that talk last month. And I hope I'm not being an idiot, a word by the way that my wife hates me using but it fits me so well, if I could ask an impudent question. I agree that the article does explain the traditional LDS perspective but does it represent your perspective? And the reason why I ask is because there are parts of his talk that I question in the sense that I disagree. All the best, Bob Well fortunately in most ways and unfortunately for purposes of deconstructing language, he is not a trained philosopher. But prophets are to CONSTRUCT linguistic images in the heart, not to deconstruct them. Take this for example: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/absolute-truth/ Quote The earth is spherical. If all the four billion people in the world think it flat, they are in error. That is an absolute truth, and all the arguing in the world will not change it. Weights will not suspend themselves in the air, but when released will fall earthward. The law of gravity is an absolute truth. It never varies. Greater laws can overcome lesser ones, but that does not change their undeniable truth. We learn about these absolute truths by being taught by the Spirit. These truths are “independent” in their spiritual sphere and are to be discovered spiritually, though they may be confirmed by experience and intellect (see D&C 93:30). The great prophet Jacob said that “the Spirit speaketh the truth. . . . Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.” (Jacob 4:13). We needed to be taught in order to understand life and who we really are. Here I think he confuses a few spheres of knowledge and classifies them on the wrong critieria. Notice he says that in the beginning of the second paragraph that he is talking about "absolute truth" which are taught by the spirit. What are the examples of spiritual truth that is taught by the spirit? The scientific fact that the "earth is spherial" AND the scientific fact that gravity exists? Were the ancients taught that gravity exists through spiritual truth? Was it revealed to them? Of course not. And of course these days we are familiar with weightlessness. The statement : “Weights will not suspend themselves in the air, but when released will fall earthward. The law of gravity is an absolute truth. It never varies” is at least highly debatable, depending on…. Wait for it… semantics. What then is the common factor here between truths upon which we have perfect confidence? Are we absolutely sure that gravity exists? Sure. Are we absolutely sure the earth is spherical? Yes! So he gives us two examples of facts the truth of which we are absolutely sure. The only problem is that they do NOT follow his definition of what MAKES them "Absolute Truths"- they are examples we observe and that are not spiritually received. Are these taught by the spirit? Flat out, clearly no. These are scientific truths which are taught through experience in the world and upon which everyone agrees. Did the ancients understand by the spirit that the earth was spherical? I do not need to belabor the point. Why do we SAY “the earth is spherical”? Because we have a word “sphere” and that is precisely the way we define the word- as a shape like the earth appears to us. It is virtually a tautology, it is like saying something like “scarlet is red”. The earth is shaped LIKE a sphere “by definition”- that shape is what we MEAN by “sphere”. On the other hand, I think that President Kimball is exactly precisely correct in that there are truths which are learned by direct communication by the spirit, and those would be the wordless communications we receive when we receive the feeling of peace in our hearts conveyed by the Holy Spirit. I agree completely with him that there are “spheres” of truths- and in fact President K has plenty of philosophical backing for that view IF he would have been interested- and I am sure he was NOT! He was trained by the spirit of God and did not need the training of professional philosophers about semantic theories- but if one looks up Wittgenstein and his views on “language games” I think you will finding it echo President Kimball pretty well in overall spirit even if Wittgenstein would cut the distinctions between “spheres” in different ways. I think that what we call “facts” are linguistic expressions and are verbal descriptions of what we perceive as “the world around us”. These are considered “true” because they represent ideas which work to predict future experiences. If we are piloting an airplane from the US to Europe we might find that a route over the pole is the “best” and shortest and predict it will take us less time, and they way we account for that prediction is because, we will say, “the earth is spherical”. And as I learned as a boy with my National Geographic Globe I got for Christmas, if you measure the distance between say Chicago and Jerusalem by going mostly East, it will be much shorter by heading North from Chicago and then curving south following the curvature of the earth on the “polar route”. But as a boy I did not learn that “by the spirit” but by playing with a piece of string and a globe, and when I saw the Astronauts in space, I learned that gravity indeed “varies” upon circumstances, and I did not learn that by the spirit either. And as I grew I learned that the feeling in my heart that I should treat others they way they wanted to be treated gave me joy. That was absolutely always so, but it was not learned by observing Astronauts or stretching a string on a globe, but by something I felt in my heart. And then there were seeds that grew and later after studying philosophy and doubting everything I possibly could, I learned linguistic descriptions were different from those feelings in my heart. And though I had not yet heard his words I learned that the ideas that President Kimball later expressed were exactly right even if I did not agree with his examples. Quote We learn about these absolute truths by being taught by the Spirit. These truths are “independent” in their spiritual sphere and are to be discovered spiritually, though they may be confirmed by experience and intellect (see D&C 93:30). The great prophet Jacob said that “the Spirit speaketh the truth. . . . Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be.” (Jacob 4:13). We needed to be taught in order to understand life and who we really are. Edited September 28, 2019 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 8 hours ago, Ahab said: I would suggest you are making that up but I know there are certain kinds of people who would agree with what you are saying. And yes some of them also use math to try to prove their ideas are true. But in math there are things called imaginary numbers, and the fact that you can show something with math does not prove it is true in reality. That's like thinking that just because something is logical that it must therefore be true. And I hope you do not believe that. And since I didn't make this clear before I should mention that I'm not talking about birthdays and the names of things. I'm basically saying that all of the people who have ever lived on this planet have gone through only so many types of experiences, regardless of when they were born and what their name was or the names of their parents. And whether they had computers or not to help them make calculations. There are only so many types of experiences and there are only so many personality types, with there always being an opposition in all things. Either good or bad. Right or wrong. A disciple of Jesus Christ or not. Imaginary numbers are not fake, they describe the real world in very useful ways, even though their name is unfortunate. They could also have been called "lateral" numbers, which would be more accurate. Anyways, it is a logical argument at its core. It is strange that you're insistent about denying something so straightforward as inaccessible knowledge. Use analogies with places, that might help you understand it. 1 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 To again directly discuss the topic, I think that curiousity and intellectual humility can enhance happiness. Assuming understanding of how everything works can more often lead to resignation and depression. Link to comment
Ahab Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 On 9/27/2019 at 11:26 PM, Meadowchik said: Imaginary numbers are not fake, they describe the real world in very useful ways, even though their name is unfortunate. They could also have been called "lateral" numbers, which would be more accurate. Anyways, it is a logical argument at its core. It is strange that you're insistent about denying something so straightforward as inaccessible knowledge. Use analogies with places, that might help you understand it. My point was that we can know the truth of all things but that reality doesn't necessarily equate to what some people imagine or think is real. And while math and logic are useful for helping us to imagine some things, or what might be true, maybe, they are imperfect tools for helping us to see what actually is real. Otherwise our Lord would advise that we get good at math and reason rather than just relying on what the Holy Ghost can teach us. Link to comment
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