Madam Patterini

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:18 PM, blueglass said:

1)  Deuteronomy 22:5 King James Version (KJV)  The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Jeesh, blueglass.  2000 years ago called - they want their culturally-specific rules for their time back!

[LoudmouthMormon]

Here's all the things that make us male and female.  The chart is obviously pushing the notion of the spectrum, but it does have relevant data in it.  IMO, human gender isn't a spectrum, it's an either-this-or-that thing for the whole human race, except for a handful of outliers. 

But yeah, you can find people who don't fit.  Look at all those outlier conditions people can have:

[katherine the great]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

It is still determined by genetics.

Is it? Biological sex is determined equally by genes and hormones (environment). Before I began to study biology in depth, I had no idea how fuzzy the line between male and female really is but I see the issue very differently now. I can't not (double negative) take exception to the statement that "no genetic male can be fully female". What is not female about these women? They are infertile. Are all infertile women "not fully female?" Genetically these women should be men so should they assume the male role simply because they have a Y chromosome? I suspect you agree with me on this case but I'm kind of astonished to see how many people completely reject biological facts that interfere with their comfortable binary world.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Is it? Biological sex is determined equally by genes and hormones (environment). Before I began to study biology in depth, I had no idea how fuzzy the line between male and female really is but I see the issue very differently now. I can't not (double negative) take exception to the statement that "no genetic male can be fully female". What is not female about these women? They are infertile. Are all infertile women "not fully female?" Genetically these women should be men so should they assume the male role simply because they have a Y chromosome? I suspect you agree with me on this case but I'm kind of astonished to see how many people completely reject biological facts that interfere with their comfortable binary world.

Now watching this. It might be a little of what you've studied perhaps: Not really the study of the trans community, but like I heard Caitly Jenner say, it's not between the legs it's between the ears, so not sexual. Or it's their identity.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Do some studying please.

What kind? Reading up on the psychological influences that push people to want to transition with the usual comorbid mental and psychological issues or the people telling me how much they want to be a different gender.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Now watching this. It might be a little of what you've studied perhaps: Not really the study of the trans community, but like I heard Caitly Jenner say, it's not between the legs it's between the ears, so not sexual. Or it's their identity.

Then why do genitalia usually indicate what gender everyone is content as? Why should we trust the brain or just “what they want”?

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Do some studying please.

People say all kinds of things, and everything people say can be found somewhere in some book or online.  And all that people say proves nothing other than people have something to say about whatever they are talking about.

It might help some if you suggest that people should pray some, too, but even after praying people will continue to say all kinds of things and there isn't much of anything that everybody is in agreement about.

[Storm Rider]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Do some studying please.

LOL - you jest! Yes, Tacenda, I have done some studying and then I studied some more. You might want to read more broadly on the topic. Cheers, 

[Storm Rider]

My we do like the exceptions and use them to attempt to make them the rule. Folks appeal to science until science does not fit their desired paradigm. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then why do genitalia usually indicate what gender everyone is content as? Why should we trust the brain or just “what they want”?

"Usually"

Probably the most important word in the debate.  Another way to put it is "vast majority".  Or "almost everybody".

It begs the question, what about the outliers?  People who aren't usual/in the majority/not the same as everybody else?

Once you can grapple with the evident fact that these people exist, even in miniscule numbers, then you have to grapple with how to go about loving them like God wants you to.

[Calm]

16 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Is it? Biological sex is determined equally by genes and hormones (environment). Before I began to study biology in depth, I had no idea how fuzzy the line between male and female really is but I see the issue very differently now. I can't not (double negative) take exception to the statement that "no genetic male can be fully female". What is not female about these women? They are infertile. Are all infertile women "not fully female?" Genetically these women should be men so should they assume the male role simply because they have a Y chromosome? I suspect you agree with me on this case but I'm kind of astonished to see how many people completely reject biological facts that interfere with their comfortable binary world.

I am not saying they are not female. I am saying there is a genetic component that contributes to  how their hormones work. 

 I don’t believe gender is only biology.  But I don’t think biology should be ignored, nor should the difference between what happens naturally be ignored because of what external treatments are applied.  The reverse is true as well, imo.  I think my problem is favoring the validity of one internal attribute (what the person thinks/feels)over others that are currently hardwired and contributing whether recognized or not, such as all DNA variations.

I am not someone who thinks gender is rigid or black and white. 

I think the terms fully female and fully male are nonsense anyway as what that is will vary according to different people. There is no scientific standard since so much is socially determined. Plus there is a huge overlap and few (if any?) things uniquely one or the other.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

"Usually"

Probably the most important word in the debate.  Another way to put it is "vast majority".  Or "almost everybody".

It begs the question, what about the outliers?  People who aren't usual/in the majority/not the same as everybody else?

Once you can grapple with the evident fact that these people exist, even in miniscule numbers, then you have to grapple with how to go about loving them like God wants you to.

For those who truly are “in between” by birth I think it involves letting their parents figure it out and sometimes even choose. Mercy for those who are caught in between and prayers that they will receive revelation to help them. For the mentally ill who insist gender reassignment surgery will fix them psychological help.

I am torn on whether legally banning these kinds of operations is a good idea or not. I put most of these operations not done out of medical necessity in the same area I put the “transabled” who chop off their own limbs.

Then again maybe Jesus was being more literal then I imagine with his idea about chopping off offensive hands.

[katherine the great]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

My we do like the exceptions and use them to attempt to make them the rule. Folks appeal to science until science does not fit their desired paradigm. 

 Not sure which "folks" you are talking about but I don't desire any particular paradigm.  I also don't understand gender dysphoria if it can't be connected to a biological cause. But it occurs frequently enough to convince me that it is very real for some people. Being a "cis" female, I can't imagine how miserable I would be in a man's body with male gender expectations imposed on me.

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

For those who truly are “in between” by birth I think it involves letting their parents figure it out and sometimes even choose. Mercy for those who are caught in between and prayers that they will receive revelation to help them. For the mentally ill who insist gender reassignment surgery will fix them psychological help.

I am torn on whether legally banning these kinds of operations is a good idea or not. I put most of these operations not done out of medical necessity in the same area I put the “transabled” who chop off their own limbs.

Then again maybe Jesus was being more literal then I imagine with his idea about chopping off offensive hands.

Most experts today say that intersex children are fine the way they are. Let them decide when they are older. I think letting the parents choose is a terrible mistake because traditionally the practice was to go the female route (since it was easier). From recent data I've seen, the vast majority of cases where there is any male genitalia present, they will likely feel more like a male once they reach adolescence.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Most experts today say that intersex children are fine the way they are. Let them decide when they are older. I think letting the parents choose is a terrible mistake because traditionally the practice was to go the female route (since it was easier). From recent data I've seen, the vast majority of cases where there is any male genitalia present, they will likely feel more like a male once they reach adolescence.

Fair enough.

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

For those who truly are “in between” by birth I think it involves letting their parents figure it out and sometimes even choose. Mercy for those who are caught in between and prayers that they will receive revelation to help them. For the mentally ill who insist gender reassignment surgery will fix them psychological help.

Then again maybe Jesus was being more literal then I imagine with his idea about chopping off offensive hands.

In addition to surgical options, these folks also can struggle with how to dress, who to date/marry, what bathroom to use, whether to shave (and what to shave), how to fit in, what friends to seek.  It would be real nice if the answers to all that came with parental prayer.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes parents choose, sometimes a kid grows into an adult and the path chosen by the parents isn't working any more.  

Again, this almost never happens.  The vast majorities of us are boys or girls.    I would guess that for everyone truly one of these minority situations, there are 100 to 1000 people who have bought into the whole 'gender is a spectrum' stuff, or are going through a period of short term confusion or experimentation.  But for some tiny fraction of humanity, there are no easy answers, even when seeking divine inspiration from a loving Heavenly Father. 

[Tacenda]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:08 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Here's all the things that make us male and female.  The chart is obviously pushing the notion of the spectrum, but it does have relevant data in it.  IMO, human gender isn't a spectrum, it's an either-this-or-that thing for the whole human race, except for a handful of outliers. 

But yeah, you can find people who don't fit.  Look at all those outlier conditions people can have:

Thanks for this!!

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, katherine the great said:

 Not sure which "folks" you are talking about but I don't desire any particular paradigm.  I also don't understand gender dysphoria if it can't be connected to a biological cause. But it occurs frequently enough to convince me that it is very real for some people. Being a "cis" female, I can't imagine how miserable I would be in a man's body with male gender expectations imposed on me.

Agree!