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Meadowchik

A Secular Mormon Sacrament

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10 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Feminism didn't drive me out of the LDS Church, but it helped draw me toward this service. I'm sorry if any of my postings here have given the impression that I believe "Women good, Men bad." I realise that strong opinions about sexism can quickly sound abrasive like that, but I have tried to be careful differentiating between what I think are systemic problems and individual failings.

Many a time I've averted sobs during the sacrament, sometimes I've failed. 

I think I have always wondered exactly where the boundaries are in forgiveness of abusers (like whether it implies access and a return to normal contact with an abuser) and what Christlike love means. This was the first time I could envision a cohesive framework incorporating all of it: forgiveness, love, responsible boundaries, the context in which contact is intended.

Perhaps in asking "the questions for which the soul needs to strive" from another direction, I might arrive at the same spiritual place as you. "The Lord looketh upon the heart."

I really appreciate your kind encouragement. Thank you very much. 

I did not mention “Feminism”, I just asked why was the prayer was so emotional, only because of the voice who gave it? Also (if I may) if you are leaning more toward atheism (presently), from where did the past emotions, come from? Be it the Community of Christ, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Was it only in your mind, or from the Holy Spirit? The Community of Christ, who has it’s “Genesis” only in our Church’s past. This means that they may say Joseph Smith was the Prophet or the Restoration, but the Book of Mormon, has now been reduced to a “religious novel” by the CoC, Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, have been rejected, leaving some, and adding many, many,  more. But they sought to insure claims that through the Prophet Joseph Smith, both an Aaronic, or Levitical Priesthood, and a Melchizedek Priesthood, were true rejectin many LDS Claims, but use it to claim “Authority”. I agree, “The Lord looketh upon the heart”, but this requires a “Lord, or God”. I would submit “respectfully”, the feelings of the past, the warmth you once felt in the Church, the “sobbing”, in the Sacrament Prayers, are still there. As with all life, it is never God that moves, it is always us, be it for any 1,000’s of reasons. I did not mention “Feminism”, because it not enter my mind, nor is not in my nature to be harmful or insulting, although being truthful brings about these things. But, since you admitted only after my first post that it was a factor, suggests that external factors are driving you. No matter your beliefs, I still think of you as my sister, as I would any other sister of the Gospel sitting down the row, in the same chapel, or any other Church chapel. Be ye present or absent, it is the same to me. Look upward, and look inward, and remember this verse...

Alma 5:26 “...if you ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can you feel so now”? 

With all my hopes and best wishes, and from an old man and brother, one who seems of so little use these days.

Papa

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7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

................. ideas about revitalizing the LDS church to its cosmological roots, ........................

 

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

...................."Cosmological toots?"  😁.....................................................

As opposed to tweets, maybe.  :pirate:  I do wish that Meadowchik had not edited out her glorious and wonderful mistake, because "cosmoloigical toots" adds such amazing possibilities to LDS theology, from Moroni tooting his own horn in Rev 14:6 and on every LDS temple, to individual revelations as toots.  Imagine, toots collected in the Doctrine & Covenants as a Book of Toots.  Adds a whole new dimension to a man referring to his honey as toots*.  8)

* The diminutive form being tootsie-wootsie.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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Makes me want to attend the CoC in SLC. :) Glad you had that kind of experience. 

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11 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I did not mention “Feminism”, I just asked why was the prayer was so emotional, only because of the voice who gave it? Also (if I may) if you are leaning more toward atheism (presently), from where did the past emotions, come from? Be it the Community of Christ, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Was it only in your mind, or from the Holy Spirit? The Community of Christ, who has it’s “Genesis” only in our Church’s past. This means that they may say Joseph Smith was the Prophet or the Restoration, but the Book of Mormon, has now been reduced to a “religious novel” by the CoC, Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, have been rejected, leaving some, and adding many, many,  more. But they sought to insure claims that through the Prophet Joseph Smith, both an Aaronic, or Levitical Priesthood, and a Melchizedek Priesthood, were true rejectin many LDS Claims, but use it to claim “Authority”. I agree, “The Lord looketh upon the heart”, but this requires a “Lord, or God”. I would submit “respectfully”, the feelings of the past, the warmth you once felt in the Church, the “sobbing”, in the Sacrament Prayers, are still there. As with all life, it is never God that moves, it is always us, be it for any 1,000’s of reasons. I did not mention “Feminism”, because it not enter my mind, nor is not in my nature to be harmful or insulting, although being truthful brings about these things. But, since you admitted only after my first post that it was a factor, suggests that external factors are driving you. No matter your beliefs, I still think of you as my sister, as I would any other sister of the Gospel sitting down the row, in the same chapel, or any other Church chapel. Be ye present or absent, it is the same to me. Look upward, and look inward, and remember this verse...

Alma 5:26 “...if you ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can you feel so now”? 

With all my hopes and best wishes, and from an old man and brother, one who seems of so little use these days.

Papa

For me, feminism can be straightforward in context. Unless otherwise specified, it simply refers to equitable treatment of females. So, just to be clear, you didn't hit a nerve with me by asking, and wasn't being defensive, just trying to clarify.

The experience was complex and I am still unravelling its meaning.

But this is perhaps the most powerful part of it: when I came home to my kids (I have a bunch of 'em, and the older ones including two young adults were watching over the younger ones in my absence) there were some major challenges. There was one of those moments that I might look back on, regarding the well-being of one of my children, where I will always be grateful that I was in the state of mind that I was, because I was able to respond well at a critical time for my child. And add to that lots of less significant things that can add up and wear a person down, those were there, but I feel strong. It's already Saturday, and I feel strength and peace. 

I don't necessarily think the Community of Christ *is the answer, and it has intentionally let go of the "one true church" claims that it shared with the LDS church in their common roots with Joseph Smith. I am thinking that, to me, the overarching important factor is that truth can be found anywhere, and is not special to one group, but is more in principles themselves, and then a sharing of them with others in ritual.

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8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Makes me want to attend the CoC in SLC. :) Glad you had that kind of experience. 

I would if I could. I don't think there is one near me, but interestingly, they have started up online services. I haven't looked into them, maybe even online communion (!) if I understood them correctly, and that is fascinating.

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

As opposed to tweets, maybe.  :pirate:  I do wish that Meadowchik had not edited out her glorious and wonderful mistake, because "cosmoloigical toots" adds such amazing possibilities to LDS theology, from Moroni tooting his own horn in Rev 14:6 and on every LDS temple, to individual revelations as toots.  Imagine, toots collected in the Doctrine & Covenants as a Book of Toots.  Adds a whole new dimension to a man referring to his honey as toots*.  8)

* The diminutive form being tootsie-wootsie.

I liked it too and the imagery of revelation-tooting horns continues to make me laugh. 

At least we can still see its splendiferousness in SMAC's post quoting it :D

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18 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It’s been more than two years since I’ve partaken of the emblems of bread and water at church. As someone who no longer believes in the LDS claims, I’ve still attended a few dozen meetings in support of family. Despite the palpable pull of ritual that I have known all my life during those sacrament meetings, I did not want to misrepresent myself to other meeting participants, so I did not partake.

Several weeks ago, my husband and I checked out a nearby Christian church. I call myself a probably-atheist, so when communion was offered, I did not take it. At this meeting, the invitation to communion seemed open, as if I could partake even as a probably-atheist. Yet I did not feel drawn to do so, so I abstained.

So it was, that, two days ago, the Community of Christ, previously known as the RLDS Church, led an ecumenical service at the end of the weekend conference of Sunstone Europe. Sunstone Magazine explores themes of Mormon-related life, in and outside the margins of belief. Along with the conference's presentations on LDS history, and a British member's ideas about revitalizing the LDS church to its cosmological roots, a lecture on spiritual pilgrimage, and a lecture child safety measures at church, I heard a keynote address on the spiritual and moral values of the Community of Christ. I began to feel significant respect for their values and admiration for the efforts they seem to have made to re-center on Christ. Also important, I felt welcomed as I am, a probably-atheist.

As has been my habit from the beginning of my changing beliefs, I have never voiced my dissent in LDS meetings. It did not feel appropriate, given the way the LDS Church intended the meetings to be. Yet, it was clear to me, listening to a Community of Christ apostle and other members, that thinking out loud was part of their religious process, even if it is uncomfortable or maybe not what we in LDS Mormonism would call “faith-promoting.” As the ecumenical service began, I felt like I could participate honestly and sincerely, instead of feeling compelled to abstain, honestly and sincerely.

There were hymns on radical acceptance, sung in a cappella, and there was a scripture reading, and we were asked to ponder the passage on loving others and reaching to lift others up. We were also asked to think of one person that was the most difficult to love, and then to love them. This is the part where I would have walked out, without the previous day and a half of thought-provoking experiences.

For example, the presentation of child safety at church emphasized that it is not in the church’s remit to forgive child abusers, or to expect victims to forgive their abusers. The Community of Christ presented its child safety measures, and policies that insisted that members complied with the measures to protect children, or not join in the congregation. While I am fortunate to not feel wounded by child abuse, I do feel the sting of abusive behaviour, so this framework of courageous love for everyone and healthy boundaries resonated deeply with me.

Thus, I did not feel the inclination to revolt and leave. Rather than a vague concept of acceptance, the language of the service focused on welcoming others to the table. There was the concrete example of helping a wounded would-be enemy, through the recounting of the Good Samaritan story. Dressing wounds of a dying person, this is specific. Joining at a table with the goal in mind of drawing closer to Jesus, this is specific in objective and context in which to work with others, with the understanding that our own paths as victims of trauma are not to be dictated at this table.

These thoughts swirled around my brain and I could settle on that kind of love. It felt responsible and merciful. We’d been invited to make notes with the scripture reading, and as the moment of the sacrament approached, we were reminded that we’d be taking upon the name of Jesus Christ. I asked myself what that would mean for me. I wanted the bread and water to be meaningful and deliberate. So as a probably-atheist, I defined it for myself in my notes by four intentions: 1. When in a position of power, I will share it, 2. When I have insights that can inform those in power, I will share them, 3. Love others as myself, and 4. Love Goodness and Truth. That last one expresses my attempt to describe the space represented by God in my life. Goodness and Truth, together, is how I first understand God as a small child, and it is still real to me, and I have not let go of it.

With these scribbles noted and tucked away, the Sacrament prayers began. A male Community of Christ member blessed the bread, and then he and a female priesthood holder passed it. Their sacrament prayers are the same as the ones I grew up hearing. A thousand times at least, I have heard this blessing of the bread and this blessing on the water. Then, when the water was blessed, and for the first time in my life, I heard this blessing by a woman. I clenched my jaw and bit my lip to avert the sobs that were threatening to escape my throat, and I drank.

I came home from London with a sense of spiritual uplift and it continues within me. I think I now better appreciate the power of the principle of two or more believers gathered in Christ's name. It is mind-bending to me that I can even feel its benefits with the most I could manage, my secularised concept of Jesus Christ, but I am grateful for it.  

I honestly do not know if the LDS Church could someday be accessible like this for me again one day. Maybe the costs for the members at large would be too high, I do not know. But I think that this experience, aside from helping me personally, has helped me remember the real value people find in worship, wherever it may be.

I think there is a great deal that common values can do to help people of differing beliefs enrich each others' lives, even with probably-atheists!

 

Perspective has an amazing impact on the individual. Reality does not move, but the individual changes their position and all of a sudden, all is right. The process of discipleship directly affects our individual perspective of God, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit. They are solid, they remain fixed and sure as a foundation, but it is we who change. We are called to change. 

It is not about God, the Church, or anything else - it is about you and your change of perspective. 

As an aside, my aunt and uncle are members of the CofC. She is one of the best Christians I know and she is in disagreement with what has happened to her church. Her perspective of the Savior has not changed. 

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38 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Perspective has an amazing impact on the individual. Reality does not move, but the individual changes their position and all of a sudden, all is right. The process of discipleship directly affects our individual perspective of God, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit. They are solid, they remain fixed and sure as a foundation, but it is we who change. We are called to change. 

It is not about God, the Church, or anything else - it is about you and your change of perspective. 

As an aside, my aunt and uncle are members of the CofC. She is one of the best Christians I know and she is in disagreement with what has happened to her church. Her perspective of the Savior has not changed. 

I agree that concepts themselves do not change, and if there is a God perhaps the essential nature of God does not change (although I'm not sure how that aligns with Joseph Smith's contruct of coeternality with God and progression). That said, part of us changing is our perception of God. We do create our own concepts of God in our minds, just like we have our own constructs of other people. And we do create the church in our relationship with it. So changing ourselves, becoming closer to consistent principles will in all likelihood mean that what we mean when we say church and God does change. 

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Your thought process seems reasonable to me. There may be as many thought processes to arrive at faith as there are people.  There are some common elements to some of them.

1.  Some of us experience a low point in our lives that enable us to turn to God with hope that He May be real, available and can expect God to respond to us when in our anguish, we call out to Him.  (I use the pronoun “Him” because that lines up with what I believe.  No offense intended.)

A.  In Mark 9 beginning at verse 17 a desperate father brought his son, who had been highly disruptive since he was a child.  Today, some might call him mentally ill.  Then, possessed of a devil.  Jesus asked if he believed.  I can imagine the father, wondering if God was real and could do this fantastic thing, healing his son.  I can hear the desperation in his voice as he pleads “Lord, I believe.  Help thou mine unbelief.”   Christ accepted his doubt and confirmed his weak faith by healing his son.  It was a low, desperate point that God answered his humbled prayer.

2.  For people like Joseph Smith, and maybe you, Joseph responded to James’ invitation to pray by following the instructions in James 1:5, and received his answer.

A.  The Book of Mormon offers an explanation of the process that encompasses the man with the sick son, and the young Prophet Joseph.  

You are probably very familiar with Alma 32.  The entire chapter is excellent.  This part resonates with me and was part of my process:

”27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good...”

At some point, I needed to ask God to let me know He was real and there for me.  I prayed and He answered in a way similar to Alma 32.  The rest is about 45 years of beautiful (to me) history.  For me, it was like the formerly blind man answering the unbelieving Jews in John 9, when they accused Jesus of being a sinner for healing him “25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.”

I wish you the very best.  It sounds like you are on a fruitful and productive track to me.

Edited by Meerkat
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16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Makes me want to attend the CoC in SLC. :) Glad you had that kind of experience. 

You know I love you Sister, but what I find confusing are the issues of who can and cannot hold the Priesthood. The Priesthood does not elevate us over others, it makes us your servants. We are literally called into servitude, to use the phrase and song name, “Called to Serve”, not to bring others into bondage. Almost the entire time I served in the Bishopric, we were on the early morning schedule, with three other Wards in the building. At the time, I was working full time, teaching school nights 2-4 nights a week at a local College, often doing Electrical Contacting when I could, just to make ends meet, to support my daughter who was on a Mission in Colorado. Each Sunday began with me waking at 5:00AM, to get a shower, get dressed, to get to the Bishopric meetings at 6:00AM. That was from 6-7AM, we then would role over to PEC, or Correlation meetings until 7:50AM, so we could begin Sacrament Meeting at 8:00AM. Of course this was the 3 hour block. During Sunday School, meeting with members, extending callings, and then classes with the Aaronic Priesthood, because I was in the Bishopric. Other than Stake Conference, or General Conferences, I spent years in Church, but never able to sit at my wife’s side, put my arm around her, and just listen.Of course there was after Church activities, counting tithing with the clerk, writing checks from Fast Offering, for those who were having financial issues. On the good days, I would make it home by 1:00PAM, as most Sunday’s were 7-9 hours of responsibility. I came to the Bishopric, after five years as the High Priest Group Leader, where I was called at the tender age of 31 or 32, if forget which. This was a group of about 40 High Priest’s, I was called out of the Elders Quorum Presidency, first as a counselor, which lasted three months, when the Group Leader announced he was moving. Then I was made Group Leader. In that five years, I was the youngest member of that group coming in, and the youngest when released to the Bishopric five years later. From there, which has nothing to do with Priesthood, I became the Gospel Doctrine Leader, I began with the first class of the Old Testament, and ended with the last class of the Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price, four years later. Upon my release, my Bishop said, “Bill, we have a lot of new investors, most are Baptist as you were, and many wonderful African Americans, who I know will connect with your style of teaching”. So, I became the Gospel Essentials teacher, as the class grew, and many baptisms, I remained. This lasted through 2 Ward changes, and five years. It only ended because my wife and I had to move in with my Mother, to care for her during the end stages of Alzheimer’s. Now, due to my injuries, I am now able to still with my wife, and have the wonderful honor of having my four youngest grandchildren fight over who get to sit with, or climb all over Papa. Being a Papa, now that is a calling for which, I want to hold on for as long as God is merciful. I still get called on to sub as a teacher, and to speak, but my Bishop whom I have known for 36 years, knows that permanent callings, would be difficult with my health problems. 

But, back to the main point, to paraphrase President Hickley remark, “who in their right mind would wish for these responsibilities”. Not long ago, Elder Jeffery R Holland cane to our Stake Conference, in this meeting he pointed out and made it clear, “why would any of us give up so much, be away from those we love, if this work were not true”? He went on to discuss how often he has to be away from his wife, his children, his great-grandchildren, when all he wants to do is to be with them everyday. He also said, “he is honored to be on the Lord’s errand”, but he finds it difficult, dealing with the depression that often an unwanted companion, brought on by being absent from family. Anyway, enough of that, my family is at a large family reunion, and I am alone because I have to stay off my feet for a week or more, from the complications from diabetes and Sarcoidosis, and recent minor surgery to save my right foot.

Anyway, pray for me, I need to teach my class on the 23rd, less for the money, but more to once again climb back out into the world. I just want to matter to the industry again. I fear that both health or memory issues will rob me sooner than I would like. Either way, if I don’t find some way to teach again, or help those outside the walls of my home, the “grim reaper”, will find me all the faster. I am in no way afraid of death, but if I disappear, the date on the calendar that I pass, means nothing. I hope such honesty does not draw rebuke, as it has cost me friends in the past, but to speak (or write) without passion or the truth, is something I do not know how to do. 

Your Brother

Papa  

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44 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

You know I love you Sister, but what I find confusing are the issues of who can and cannot hold the Priesthood. The Priesthood does not elevate us over others, it makes us your servants. We are literally called into servitude, to use the phrase and song name, “Called to Serve”, not to bring others into bondage. Almost the entire time I served in the Bishopric, we were on the early morning schedule, with three other Wards in the building. At the time, I was working full time, teaching school nights 2-4 nights a week at a local College, often doing Electrical Contacting when I could, just to make ends meet, to support my daughter who was on a Mission in Colorado. Each Sunday began with me waking at 5:00AM, to get a shower, get dressed, to get to the Bishopric meetings at 6:00AM. That was from 6-7AM, we then would role over to PEC, or Correlation meetings until 7:50AM, so we could begin Sacrament Meeting at 8:00AM. Of course this was the 3 hour block. During Sunday School, meeting with members, extending callings, and then classes with the Aaronic Priesthood, because I was in the Bishopric. Other than Stake Conference, or General Conferences, I spent years in Church, but never able to sit at my wife’s side, put my arm around her, and just listen.Of course there was after Church activities, counting tithing with the clerk, writing checks from Fast Offering, for those who were having financial issues. On the good days, I would make it home by 1:00PAM, as most Sunday’s were 7-9 hours of responsibility. I came to the Bishopric, after five years as the High Priest Group Leader, where I was called at the tender age of 31 or 32, if forget which. This was a group of about 40 High Priest’s, I was called out of the Elders Quorum Presidency, first as a counselor, which lasted three months, when the Group Leader announced he was moving. Then I was made Group Leader. In that five years, I was the youngest member of that group coming in, and the youngest when released to the Bishopric five years later. From there, which has nothing to do with Priesthood, I became the Gospel Doctrine Leader, I began with the first class of the Old Testament, and ended with the last class of the Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price, four years later. Upon my release, my Bishop said, “Bill, we have a lot of new investors, most are Baptist as you were, and many wonderful African Americans, who I know will connect with your style of teaching”. So, I became the Gospel Essentials teacher, as the class grew, and many baptisms, I remained. This lasted through 2 Ward changes, and five years. It only ended because my wife and I had to move in with my Mother, to care for her during the end stages of Alzheimer’s. Now, due to my injuries, I am now able to still with my wife, and have the wonderful honor of having my four youngest grandchildren fight over who get to sit with, or climb all over Papa. Being a Papa, now that is a calling for which, I want to hold on for as long as God is merciful. I still get called on to sub as a teacher, and to speak, but my Bishop whom I have known for 36 years, knows that permanent callings, would be difficult with my health problems. 

But, back to the main point, to paraphrase President Hickley remark, “who in their right mind would wish for these responsibilities”. Not long ago, Elder Jeffery R Holland cane to our Stake Conference, in this meeting he pointed out and made it clear, “why would any of us give up so much, be away from those we love, if this work were not true”? He went on to discuss how often he has to be away from his wife, his children, his great-grandchildren, when all he wants to do is to be with them everyday. He also said, “he is honored to be on the Lord’s errand”, but he finds it difficult, dealing with the depression that often an unwanted companion, brought on by being absent from family. Anyway, enough of that, my family is at a large family reunion, and I am alone because I have to stay off my feet for a week or more, from the complications from diabetes and Sarcoidosis, and recent minor surgery to save my right foot.

Anyway, pray for me, I need to teach my class on the 23rd, less for the money, but more to once again climb back out into the world. I just want to matter to the industry again. I fear that both health or memory issues will rob me sooner than I would like. Either way, if I don’t find some way to teach again, or help those outside the walls of my home, the “grim reaper”, will find me all the faster. I am in no way afraid of death, but if I disappear, the date on the calendar that I pass, means nothing. I hope such honesty does not draw rebuke, as it has cost me friends in the past, but to speak (or write) without passion or the truth, is something I do not know how to do. 

Your Brother

Papa  

I'm sorry you're not able to make the reunion, that stinks!

In my response to Meadowchik, I just wanted to see what the cofc was like anyway, nothing to do with having the priesthood. Maybe the church could have women in charge of some priestly duties so men like you and Pres. Holland could spend more time with their families.

This is a huge problem, since hearing from many how their fathers weren't there a lot but stuck at the church or doing many priestly duties or the Lord's errand, throughout the wards.

There are many women that are in their prime or many that don't have families that I'm sure could be a clerk etc. Or a few other things to give men a break. I say this not in any way as anti, I say this because many women like me, feel like they're put out to pasture. At least my mother did, when the only calling they gave her in her older years was visiting teaching supervisor. It would be nice if Pres. Nelson made some changes in this regard. There are women that wouldn't mind the PH in the church, not me though. But not all callings need to be only the PH. Such as I mentioned a bit ago, a clerk for instance. 

I hope the foot gets healed quick Papa, you were on a roll, hope nothing gets in the way of the teaching calling! I'll do my best to pray for you! :)

Edited by Tacenda

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sorry you're not able to make the reunion, that stinks!

In my response to Meadowchik, I just wanted to see what the cofc was like anyway, nothing to do with having the priesthood. Maybe the church could have women in charge of some priestly duties so men like you and Pres. Holland could spend more time with their families.

This is a huge problem, since hearing from many how their fathers weren't there a lot but stuck at the church or doing many priestly duties or the Lord's errand, throughout the wards.

There are many women that are in their prime or many that don't have families that I'm sure could be a clerk etc. Or a few other things to give men a break. I say this not in any way as anti, I say this because many women like me, feel like they're put out to pasture. At least my mother did, when the only calling they gave her in her older years was visiting teaching supervisor. It would be nice if Pres. Nelson made some changes in this regard. There are women that wouldn't mind the PH in the church, not me though. But not all callings need to be only the PH. Such as I mentioned a bit ago, a clerk for instance. 

I hope the foot gets healed quick Papa, you were on a roll, hope nothing gets in the way of the teaching calling! I'll do my best to pray for you! :)

I don’t regret any of it, but teaching was and is my best fit, and a blessing which a merciful God, gave to someone so undeserving. All teachers, if they are doing their calling correctly, always learn more than the student. Maybe this is why I have taught for so many decades, because I am the one in need of instruction. Also teaching does not require the Priesthood, it has nothing about giving men a break, or giving women a break. Few, if any callings matter more than those who are called to teach. You may remember a book the Church published (for teacher training) called, “Teaching, No Greater Calling”, and that great calling does require the Priesthood. Many of the teachers I remember most, were our dear Sisters, and friends who brought the Spirit and passion to the classroom, even many Sisters who did the same at General Conferences over the decades of sermons from the pulpit, which again required no Priesthood. All women, far too often do not see the unmistakable power in which they are endowed. I remember once, I had been taken to the hospital, ungoing something that doctors thought would kill me. They tried a number of things, none that I remember, but my heart was just running away, and they feared it would kill me. They could not seem to isolate it, they could not keep me from thrashing about, and each time they slowed my heartbeat, it would soon get even worse. Finally, as my wife had to tell me, my parents arrived at the hospital, and my Mother calmly walked over, placed her hand on my forehead, and in that instant I calmed, and drifted into a peaceful sleep. This because whatever storm that was raging, just vanished away. She had no Priesthood, she was no a member of the our Church, she was just a Mother, my Mother, who guided out of so many sicknesses from my childhood. I miss her, and I miss that, where almost any hurt, physical or emotional, she always had the cure, in her touch, and in her words. But, enough of my preaching, I will always hope and pray that for any who for any reason, will one day reconcile back to what I believe to be the Faith that once united us all. If not, I will still hope. I fear that whatever voice I many have had in the past here, or elsewhere has run it’s course, or grown unneeded, or dare I say, unwanted. I hope not, but hope is what I have. I feel I am just too old, and filled too idealistic, for an increasingly younger type of posters. Make no mistake, I love it here, I just hope that love is reysepicale.   

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On 9/14/2019 at 4:51 PM, Meerkat said:

I wish you the very best.  It sounds like you are on a fruitful and productive track to me.

Thank you! Alma 32 was a favourite to ponder, especially the faith-knowledge cycle still speaks truth to me.

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Interesting how this still feels so fresh for me! I feel changed.

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:05 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Curious. Yet LDS communion is open, right? Anyone can receive it as I understand, including non-LDS. These quotes from the Book of Mormon seem to indicate that communion should be closed, like Catholic communion is closed.

If it is open communion and an atheist receiving it would be damned, shouldn't there be some sort of announcement prior for visitors so they know what they are doing?

Members of the Church are invited, so technically not open. However, no one is prevented from participating unless the Bishop has prohibited someone who is known to him.  Otherwise it is assumed only members will participate. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 3:05 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Curious. Yet LDS communion is open, right? Anyone can receive it as I understand, including non-LDS. These quotes from the Book of Mormon seem to indicate that communion should be closed, like Catholic communion is closed.

If it is open communion and an atheist receiving it would be damned, shouldn't there be some sort of announcement prior for visitors so they know what they are doing?

There is no formal process to stop an individual from partaking of the Sacrament. The bread and water are passed down each pew row and those who are worthy....or not, may partake as they choose. It is not open, but we don't spend any time telling or teaching non-members to not partake of the Sacrament until after baptism and understanding what daily repentance is and it relation to partaking of the Sacrament worthily. 

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5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

There is no formal process to stop an individual from partaking of the Sacrament. The bread and water are passed down each pew row and those who are worthy....or not, may partake as they choose. It is not open, but we don't spend any time telling or teaching non-members to not partake of the Sacrament until after baptism and understanding what daily repentance is and it relation to partaking of the Sacrament worthily. 

If it’s not open, then why not spend some time teaching it isn’t? And also, what about children? I’ve been to a few sacrament meetings and the children always receive. If it’s not open, that should be taught. For example, a simple google search will show you Catholic communion is closed. Not so with LDS sacrament. 

Might you be sharing your own unofficial view here?

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12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If it’s not open, then why not spend some time teaching it isn’t? And also, what about children? I’ve been to a few sacrament meetings and the children always receive. If it’s not open, that should be taught. For example, a simple google search will show you Catholic communion is closed. Not so with LDS sacrament. 

Might you be sharing your own unofficial view here?

Yes, it wouldn't add much time to simply have a statement before sacrament explaining who may partake. I found it helpful in the denominations that did this.

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22 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Interesting how this still feels so fresh for me! I feel changed.

I think most in the Church would call that the Holy Spirit leading you back to truth... :) 

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3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think most in the Church would call that the Holy Spirit leading you back to truth... :) 

And/or maybe I'm here to share some with you ;) it can be reciprocal, you know, even between different spiritual worldviews! :)

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17 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

If it’s not open, then why not spend some time teaching it isn’t? And also, what about children? I’ve been to a few sacrament meetings and the children always receive. If it’s not open, that should be taught. For example, a simple google search will show you Catholic communion is closed. Not so with LDS sacrament. 

Might you be sharing your own unofficial view here?

You are hitting on a few of my personal pet peeves. I don't think children should partake of the Sacrament. I feel it is inappropriate and beyond their understanding. I wish that leaders would consistently teach this concept. Such a change may cause problems at first, but in the long run, I believe that the Sacrament would take on new meaning for all. 

I think it is appropriate to state that on the surface, the Sacrament is open. However, I also believe that scriptural and the teaching of the prophets and apostles could just as easily lead us to have a closed Sacrament. The practice as it is today is open.

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:10 PM, Meadowchik said:

It is mind-bending to me that I can even feel its benefits with the most I could manage, my secularised concept of Jesus Christ, but I am grateful for it.

It's mind-bending to me that one can have ecumenical gatherings with Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais,
Muslims, etc when the have a false concept of who Christ is.

Jim

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19 hours ago, theplains said:

It's mind-bending to me that one can have ecumenical gatherings with Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais,
Muslims, etc when the have a false concept of who Christ is.

Jim

"False," you say.

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