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Doug the Hutt

2 Nephi 29 -- saw something I don't like

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Howdy folks,

I was reading 2 Nephi 29 and something occurred to me that I've never noticed before.  It's the well-known chapter where God tells us there's more bible to be had.  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29?lang=eng

God reveals through Nephi that the Jews will get the words of the Nephites.  Ok, that's explainable -- the Book of Mormon will be published in the latter days and will make its way among some modern Jews.  But it also says that the Nephites will receive the words of the Jews.  It's not unreasonable to conclude that  the Bible is what the Nephites would receive, after all, a significant portion of the chapter mentions the Bible specifically, coming from the oppressed Jews who are still God's chosen people.  The problem is that the Nephites were all wiped out.  Moroni was the last Nephite and probably died in the 400's A.D.  There weren't Nephites thereafter.  So how could the Nephites, a dead nation with no survivors, receive the Bible, something that wouldn't cross the ocean for over a thousand more years?

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40 minutes ago, Doug the Hutt said:

Howdy folks,

I was reading 2 Nephi 29 and something occurred to me that I've never noticed before.  It's the well-known chapter where God tells us there's more bible to be had.  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29?lang=eng

God reveals through Nephi that the Jews will get the words of the Nephites.  Ok, that's explainable -- the Book of Mormon will be published in the latter days and will make its way among some modern Jews.  But it also says that the Nephites will receive the words of the Jews.  It's not unreasonable to conclude that  the Bible is what the Nephites would receive, after all, a significant portion of the chapter mentions the Bible specifically, coming from the oppressed Jews who are still God's chosen people.  The problem is that the Nephites were all wiped out.  Moroni was the last Nephite and probably died in the 400's A.D.  There weren't Nephites thereafter.  So how could the Nephites, a dead nation with no survivors, receive the Bible, something that wouldn't cross the ocean for over a thousand more years?

It also mentions that The Lord will not suffer a mixture of Nephis seed to be destroyed. In the end the Lamanitss were a mix of various clans under one name, including Nephires. After all, is it unreasonable to believe that a handful of Nephi’s decendants had families with lamanites over hundreds of years? 

God made it clear in the scriptures what would occur to Nephi’s seed. You might have just missed the verse.

Edited by SettingDogStar
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36 minutes ago, Doug the Hutt said:

Howdy folks,

I was reading 2 Nephi 29 and something occurred to me that I've never noticed before.  It's the well-known chapter where God tells us there's more bible to be had.  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29?lang=eng

God reveals through Nephi that the Jews will get the words of the Nephites.  Ok, that's explainable -- the Book of Mormon will be published in the latter days and will make its way among some modern Jews.  But it also says that the Nephites will receive the words of the Jews.  It's not unreasonable to conclude that  the Bible is what the Nephites would receive, after all, a significant portion of the chapter mentions the Bible specifically, coming from the oppressed Jews who are still God's chosen people.  The problem is that the Nephites were all wiped out.  Moroni was the last Nephite and probably died in the 400's A.D.  There weren't Nephites thereafter.  So how could the Nephites, a dead nation with no survivors, receive the Bible, something that wouldn't cross the ocean for over a thousand more years?

There are several scriptures which show that as a genetic people the Nephites were not wiped out. Some became "Lamanites," and as such continued on. Presumably, their ancestors will become "Nephites" again when they once again follow God. In other words it was only the Nephites who continued to follow Yehovah who were "wiped out." 

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Besides, the Nephites were not all wiped out. Some(many) defected to the Lamanites and there may well have been a few pockets remaining in isolated areas. Lacandons? After 200 AD the Nephites/Lamanites were more of a political division than a genetic one, IMHO. 

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17 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Besides, the Nephites were not all wiped out. Some(many) defected to the Lamanites and there may well have been a few pockets remaining in isolated areas. Lacandons? After 200 AD the Nephites/Lamanites were more of a political division than a genetic one, IMHO. 

It was Moroni the Nephite (albeit in a resurrected state on an errand as an angel of God) who directed Joseph Smith to retrieve the Gold Plates out of the ground.  After translating the record and publishing it Joseph Smith organized the new Kingdom of God on the earth called the Church of Jesus Christ.  Thus the Gentiles became the FIRST to receive the new dispensation of the Fullness of Times.  The Jews will be LAST when they will accept the New Covenant which is the Book of Mormon.  Which is the word of Mormon (the father of Moroni) and passed on to Moroni who added the words of the Jaredites (Book of Ether) and some of his own thoughts to the Gold Plates.

Edited by longview
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2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

There are several scriptures which show that as a genetic people the Nephites were not wiped out. Some became "Lamanites," and as such continued on. Presumably, their ancestors will become "Nephites" again when they once again follow God. In other words it was only the Nephites who continued to follow Yehovah who were "wiped out." 

When they were wiped out they most definitely were not following him. It was a political entity and cultural identity that was wiped out.

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Seems the Lamanites don't exist either, their DNA tests claim that practically all the Native Americans came from the Siberia region.

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8 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Seems the Lamanites don't exist either, their DNA tests claim that practically all the Native Americans came from the Siberia region.

Very tiny population (the lamanites) in a probably huge mix of other populations would probably wipe out any dna markers from almost 1400 years ago. Plus they were probably already mixing with other groups and thus their markers were already beginning to fade. On top of that we have no markers for what the ancient DNA of a person from a certain tribe of Israel over 2000 years ago would be.

Edited by SettingDogStar
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5 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Seems the Lamanites don't exist either, their DNA tests claim that practically all the Native Americans came from the Siberia region.

Two intermarried families who we have no early genetic information about migrated to the New World and you expect their genetics to dominate two continents? Really?

The DNA arguments everyone wants to use are so simplified they should be an embarassment.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

When they were wiped out they most definitely were not following him. It was a political entity and cultural identity that was wiped out.

Better throw away your Book of Mormon then since neither Mormon nor Moroni were following Him.

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4 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Seems the Lamanites don't exist either, their DNA tests claim that practically all the Native Americans came from the Siberia region.

CFR

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27 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR

I don't need to CFR, just do a search for "Origins of Native Americans" there are plenty of information if you look.  All the sources I run across read of the Natives coming from Siberia, mostly.

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5 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Very tiny population (the lamanites) in a probably huge mix of other populations would probably wipe out any dna markers from almost 1400 years ago. Plus they were probably already mixing with other groups and thus their markers were already beginning to fade. On top of that we have no markers for what the ancient DNA of a person from a certain tribe of Israel over 2000 years ago would be.

Not to mention Mitochondrial  DNA only tells part of a persons genealogical story.

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Not only did the Brass Plates contain some material from the prophets of Judah, but Jesus also taught teachings he shared with the New Testament Jews to the Nephites while he was there. Some of these are recorded in 3rd Nephi...

 

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5 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Very tiny population (the lamanites) in a probably huge mix of other populations would probably wipe out any dna markers from almost 1400 years ago. Plus they were probably already mixing with other groups and thus their markers were already beginning to fade. On top of that we have no markers for what the ancient DNA of a person from a certain tribe of Israel over 2000 years ago would be.

In other words the Lamanites no longer exist, through dilution or what ever, they are still gone.  My claim is that most Native Americans are from Siberia.  Native Americans don't have beards as do the Jewish blood line.  ---- Ed  Wasn't the Americas supposedly to be saved for the Book of Mormon people, not known of other nations.  I don't remember the wording.

Edited by Sanpitch
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1 hour ago, Sanpitch said:

In other words the Lamanites no longer exist, through dilution or what ever, they are still gone.  My claim is that most Native Americans are from Siberia.  Native Americans don't have beards as do the Jewish blood line.  ---- Ed  Wasn't the Americas supposedly to be saved for the Book of Mormon people, not known of other nations.  I don't remember the wording.

Just because a lot of the genetic markers have faded or not doesn’t make someone NOT of that lineage. We can’t blood test random Jews and say “Hey you’re of the tribe of Levi, you’re a priest” but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Just because the Lamanites mixed with other races and such doesn’t mean there aren’t descendents of those people. I do have a very far ancestor that was African American, just one that I can see, but my blood test came back as 0% African. Odd? The markers might be gone but that doesn’t mean I’m not a direct descendant of that individual. (I believe a lot of my Irish and Mexican ancestors messed up the tiny minuscule amount of African markers there would have been).

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2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I don't need to CFR, just do a search for "Origins of Native Americans" there are plenty of information if you look.  All the sources I run across read of the Natives coming from Siberia, mostly.

CFR means to provide evidence, not to tell someone to "look it up."  If you make a claim, and you are asked for references, you should provide your evidence or withdraw the claim.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ERMD said:

CFR means to provide evidence, not to tell someone to "look it up."  If you make a claim, and you are asked for references, you should provide your evidence or withdraw the claim.

 

 

And your CFR was asking for the evidence that ALL native Americans came from Siberia. Not a single DNA analysis I’ve read has ever claimed this, it’s an amazing claim that is worthy of a CFR. No google search will turn up this result. 

I agree that all statements of fact should be backed up evidence, even if it’s our interpretation of it.

 

Edited by SettingDogStar

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38 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

And your CFR was asking for the evidence that ALL native Americans came from Siberia. Not a single DNA analysis I’ve read has ever claimed this, it’s an amazing claim that is worthy of a CFR. No google search will turn up this result. 

I agree that all statements of fact should be backed up evidence, even if it’s our interpretation of it.

 

I didn't post the CFR; just clarifying what it requires.

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1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

And your CFR was asking for the evidence that ALL native Americans came from Siberia. Not a single DNA analysis I’ve read has ever claimed this, it’s an amazing claim that is worthy of a CFR. No google search will turn up this result. 

I agree that all statements of fact should be backed up evidence, even if it’s our interpretation of it.

 

From Simon Southerton's article listed below:  And no one claimed all native Americans came from Siberia.

 

"Simon Southerton is a native Australian, geneticist, former LDS bishop, and author of the book “Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church.”   Simon was a member of the LDS church for almost 30 years, serving a mission in Melbourne (1981-83), marrying in the New Zealand Temple in 1983, and serving in numerous church positions including four terms as Young Men President,  a counselor in several bishoprics and branch presidencies, and finally as bishop.

While serving as bishop Simon began studying Native American DNA which he expected to have Middle Eastern origins, given the primary Book of Mormon narrative and longstanding church teachings to this effect. Discovering instead that Native American DNA was almost 100% of Asiatic origin, this seriously challenged Simon’s belief that the Lamanites are the ancestors of the American Indians, and that the Book of Mormon is a historical document.  Consequently, Simon resigned from his calling as bishop in 1998 and left the church soon thereafter."

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/simon-southerton-dna-lamanites-and-the-book-of-mormon/

Edited by Sanpitch
CFR Addition

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27 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

From Simon Southerton's article listed below:  And no one claimed all native Americans came from Siberia.

 

"Simon Southerton is a native Australian, geneticist, former LDS bishop, and author of the book “Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church.”   Simon was a member of the LDS church for almost 30 years, serving a mission in Melbourne (1981-83), marrying in the New Zealand Temple in 1983, and serving in numerous church positions including four terms as Young Men President,  a counselor in several bishoprics and branch presidencies, and finally as bishop.

While serving as bishop Simon began studying Native American DNA which he expected to have Middle Eastern origins, given the primary Book of Mormon narrative and longstanding church teachings to this effect. Discovering instead that Native American DNA was almost 100% of Asiatic origin, this seriously challenged Simon’s belief that the Lamanites are the ancestors of the American Indians, and that the Book of Mormon is a historical document.  Consequently, Simon resigned from his calling as bishop in 1998 and left the church soon thereafter."

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/simon-southerton-dna-lamanites-and-the-book-of-mormon/

I apologize, I read your post incorrectly. You did say “practically all”, which would imply some did not, which is true.

While the early church was adamant that the BoM happened here, I don’t see any reason for that to be the only case and they could have been isolated or heavily mixed with other tribes in South America and/or Latin.

Either way, that fact that some did not come from Siberia lends the chance that there could easily have been two small families that came to the Americas 2000 years ago and ended up mingling with a lot of other groups. It took a skeleton to be found in Siberia to make the complete connection, so maybe if we find a skeleton from a certain family, tribe, and race in the Middle East we’ll find a distant match. DNA can paint a very broad picture for migration and travel, but when it comes to specifics..it can be troublesome.

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"Practically all from Siberia" and "almost 100 of Asiatic origin" are not the same thing.  Not all of Asia is Siberia; whereas all of Siberia is in Asia.

Regardless, the DNA of a small group from Jerusalem is going to be quite difficult to detect when it mixes with the larger population already present in the region.

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18 hours ago, Doug the Hutt said:

So how could the Nephites, a dead nation with no survivors, receive the Bible, something that wouldn't cross the ocean for over a thousand more years?

The Nephites aren't a dead nation:

"And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year. And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward." - Alma 63: 6-7

According to several authoritative statements the islands of the Pacific and Indian Oceans are still populated by these Nephites. These Nephites would have encountered the words of the Jews as early as 2000 years ago.

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