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Mormon men are groomed not to listen to women

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23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Due to her involvement in welfare and stewardship of their mothers, she may be aware of issues and needs in the family of potential leaders or even in the families of the boys themselves where they might need special support. 

But "may be aware of issues" can also apply to the Primary President, or the YM President, etc.

In the end, it would be unwieldy and impractical to issue callings by committee.  This is particularly so for wards with high turnover (like mine).  The bishop needs to confer with the ward leaders and be up to speed, but getting input from anyone who answers to "may be aware of issues" would slow things down quite a bit.

Thanks,

-Smac

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6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But "may be aware of issues" can also apply to the Primary President, or the YM President, etc.

However in most cases the RS Pres has a wider awareness than the others as well as specific to those being called in regards to women.

I agree there needs to be balanced between efficiency and variety of input. 

However, I would not be surprised if including the RS Pres made making callings more efficient overall, due to her more global knowledge base. 

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, smac97 said:
3 hours ago, truth a la carte said:

Would church buildings in the U.S. be so cold in the summer? Women freeze while men wear their jackets. Perhaps men's priesthood responsibilities do not require a summer jacket :) 

That seems like a local issue.

Interesting that you feel this way. Summer church building temperature has been a problem for women in most wards I've lived in, though I recognize it as anecdotal evidence. Anecdotally, how do men and women feel about the temperature in your ward building?

3 hours ago, smac97 said:
Quote

Would men’s garments function like men’s underwear, and women’s garments function like… men’s underwear? Women in the church often wear two sets of underwear, and the set from Beehive Clothing isn’t the set that does the job of underwear.

I'm not sure that "women's voices" haven't been heard/addressed on this point.

It might be helpful to test your opinion here, and ask several women if they think their voices have been heard/addressed on this point. (Alternatively, a man could theoretically test it out experimentally by wearing tighty-whities in addition to garments for a while. And also a back brace -- over the garment and under the shirt, of course.)

3 hours ago, smac97 said:
Quote

Would the change to the temple ceremony have occurred only this year? Women have been concerned for a long time about the way things were presented. (This last one is a great example of a leader listening to women about something big, but also an example of previous leaders NOT listening.)

So even after the Church makes a change to purportedly accommodate "women," it is still to be faulted and criticized?  We're now reduced to griping about an issue that has been addressed?

Really?

Hah. 

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28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What you've written here, in my experience, represents the common practice.

Two points to consider:

1.  The RS president has stewardship over all the sisters in the ward, regardless of which organization they may be called to serve in.

Yes, but that stewardship is not plenary.  The RS President would not really be involved in, say, calling Sister Johnson to be a primary teacher.  That would be the province, the stewardship, of the Primary President.

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

2.  I believe the sisters that lead ward auxiliaries could provide valuable perspective for all callings in the ward.  They often have a point of view that men lack.

Getting a calling decided on, extended to a person, accepted by that person, that person being presented for a sustaining vote, that person getting set apart, and that person getting introduced and trained into the ward organization is often a lot of work.  Adding multiple additional layers of consultation would, I think, slow the process down quite a bit.

Moreover, this "point of view" thing is probably a fair point, but it seems impractical because it is unending.  Ward leaders may also have "a point of view" about disciplinary matters, and food orders, and use of fast offerings, and any of the many, many responsibilities of the bishop and the bishopric.  You seem to be calling for a widening of the bishopric to include a large number of people, and I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

However in most cases the RS Pres has a wider awareness than the others as well as specific to those being called in regards to women.

I agree there needs to be balanced between efficiency and variety of input. 

However, I would not be surprised if including the RS Pres made making callings more efficient overall, due to her more global knowledge base. 

Perhaps you have a point.

I would hope that the RS President would convey any such "global knowledge" to the bishop (and that the bishop would seek it out).

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Getting a calling decided on, extended to a person, accepted by that person, that person being presented for a sustaining vote, that person getting set apart, and that person getting introduced and trained into the ward organization is often a lot of work. 

And if a particular person has a lot of info at their disposal that can speed things up (who is available and who isn’t to start with), seems like a good idea to include them at the start. 

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1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps you have a point.

I would hope that the RS President would convey any such "global knowledge" to the bishop (and that the bishop would seek it out).

Thanks,

-Smac

Hard for her to convey if she doesn’t know questions are being asked. Makes sense to me to include her in the meeting rather than add a meeting for the bishop to seek out her input separately. 

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

And if a particular person has a lot of info at their disposal that can speed things up (who is available and who isn’t to start with), seems like a good idea to include them at the start. 

I would hope the bishop would be pretty up-to-speed on the members of his ward.  Do RS Presidents compartmentalize information about the sisters?  Keep secrets from the bishop?

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Getting a calling decided on, extended to a person, accepted by that person, that person being presented for a sustaining vote, that person getting set apart, and that person getting introduced and trained into the ward organization is often a lot of work.  Adding multiple additional layers of consultation would, I think, slow the process down quite a bit.

Moreover, this "point of view" thing is probably a fair point, but it seems impractical because it is unending.  Ward leaders may also have "a point of view" about disciplinary matters, and food orders, and use of fast offerings, and any of the many, many responsibilities of the bishop and the bishopric.  You seem to be calling for a widening of the bishopric to include a large number of people, and I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

Time is one of the most limited resources we have but I would like to make it clear that it would be good for more members to speak up and share their thoughts about things that go on in their wards.  And that could be an ongoing thing, without any deadline, because things are always subject to change and all members of a ward could speak up to have some of those changes.  So I would encourage everyone to share their ideas, rather than only certain leaders of ward organizations.  With members speaking up anytime and anywhere to make their voices heard.  Not everyone would chime in, likely though, but the people who did could be a part of making a difference in the ward to help make it the best it could possibly be.

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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hard for her to convey if she doesn’t know questions are being asked. Makes sense to me to include her in the meeting rather than add a meeting for the bishop to seek out her input separately. 

All sorts of things are talked about in bishopric meeting.  Should the RS President be asked to wait outside for 45 minutes in case a calling comes up?

And what about the EQ President?  Why not include him, too?

And the YM/YW Presidents?  They'll have insights.  

And so on.

I guess I just don't see how or why RS Presidents should be privileged above any other ward leader (I use "privileged" in its legalistic sense).  Every argument made for adding the RS President as a defacto bishopric member can also be applied to the EQP, and Primary President, and so on.  It becomes unmanageable rather quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

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10 minutes ago, truth a la carte said:

Interesting that you feel this way. Summer church building temperature has been a problem for women in most wards I've lived in, though I recognize it as anecdotal evidence. Anecdotally, how do men and women feel about the temperature in your ward building?

 

While the Church may not be the author of this outrageously sexist policy common throughout Western society, it, as the divine institution it is must know better (and if not, it is not divine).
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/28/nyregion/office-temperature-sexist-nixon-cuomo.html

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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is about providing information that can help lead to better callings, imo.  Perhaps they are aware of special interests that would contribute to the calling or a special need that should remove the possibility of being called. 

I understand that information is important.  If there is special information that any ward leader comes upon it should be communicated to the bishop, he shouldn't have to ask for it.

In my experience:

Bishops do consult with other ward leaders when specific questions arise.  Others may not be aware of all communication.

Bishops are generally more aware of what is going on in the lives of members of the ward than organization presidents.

 

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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

However in most cases the RS Pres has a wider awareness than the others as well as specific to those being called in regards to women.

I agree there needs to be balanced between efficiency and variety of input. 

However, I would not be surprised if including the RS Pres made making callings more efficient overall, due to her more global knowledge base. 

My Rs president doesn't know anything about me. She knows nothing at all. Our Bishop knows me and our family 100 times more. I moved while pregnant from 900 miles away. I had a 16 month old and a husband that traveled for work. I had a very high risk pregnancy.  I lost all my support when we moved.

     All I got was asking if I could take meals to people or watch other people's kids. This was within a week of moving in. No asking if I was okay. If I needed help or even trying to get to know me.  It turned me off the RS. I haven't been in 2 and half years. I doubt that will ever change.  

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13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, but that stewardship is not plenary.  The RS President would not really be involved in, say, calling Sister Johnson to be a primary teacher.  That would be the province, the stewardship, of the Primary President.

Getting a calling decided on, extended to a person, accepted by that person, that person being presented for a sustaining vote, that person getting set apart, and that person getting introduced and trained into the ward organization is often a lot of work.  Adding multiple additional layers of consultation would, I think, slow the process down quite a bit.

Moreover, this "point of view" thing is probably a fair point, but it seems impractical because it is unending.  Ward leaders may also have "a point of view" about disciplinary matters, and food orders, and use of fast offerings, and any of the many, many responsibilities of the bishop and the bishopric.  You seem to be calling for a widening of the bishopric to include a large number of people, and I don't think that works.

Thanks,

-Smac

If you read my original post you'll note that I wasn't specifically calling for anything.  I was seeking input.  I also noted the potential for it becoming unwieldy.

Personally, I think having the RS President attend many/most bishopric meetings would be extraordinarily beneficial.  Just not sure how the RS President would feel about that.

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7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

All sorts of things are talked about in bishopric meeting.  Should the RS President be asked to wait outside for 45 minutes in case a calling comes up?

And what about the EQ President?  Why not include him, too?

And the YM/YW Presidents?  They'll have insights.  

And so on.

I guess I just don't see how or why RS Presidents should be privileged above any other ward leader (I use "privileged" in its legalistic sense).  Every argument made for adding the RS President as a defacto bishopric member can also be applied to the EQP, and Primary President, and so on.  It becomes unmanageable rather quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

Don’t forget the Sunday School President. He is a ward auxiliary leader as well. I’m sure he has insights too. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I would hope the bishop would be pretty up-to-speed on the members of his ward.  Do RS Presidents compartmentalize information about the sisters?  Keep secrets from the bishop?

Thanks,

-Smac

It's not about any compartmentalized information.  

And even if the Bishop met with the RS President separately, on a weekly basis, it would still be impossible for her to counsel him on bishopric discussions that she isn't aware are taking place.

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2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If you read my original post you'll note that I wasn't specifically calling for anything.  I was seeking input.  I also noted the potential for it becoming unwieldy.

Personally, I think having the RS President attend many/most bishopric meetings would be extraordinarily beneficial.  Just not sure how the RS President would feel about that.

In the abstract, I agree.  But I also see some real logistical issues.  And I also don't see why the RS President should be included, but the EQP excluded (or, for that matter, any other ward leader).

I think the ward council is supposed to cover the ground being contemplated here.

Thanks,

-Smac

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26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Since primary children and young women don't often receive callings, it does feel like a simple solution would be to invite the RS president to bishopric meeting.

Do you think that might have felt awkward or uncomfortable to you?  Being the sole woman invited into Bishopric meeting on a regular basis?

I don't believe it would be more awkward than our monthly PEC meeting was (our ward started involving the RS president with that meeting a few years ago) -- I was the only woman there with the bishopric, EQ pres, YM pres, and Ward Mission Leader. 

However, the situation with callings is tricky. Bishoprics discuss so many things during their meetings, and RS presidents have too much going on to be "on call" for whenever callings are discussed :) (couldn't resist the wordplay). On the other hand, the only time I really disagreed with my wonderful bishop was when I told him of inspiration that would have required that the YW presidency be released. He declined to do it. Two months later the YW presidency was effectively incapacitated due to a combination of personal illnesses and deaths in their families. They were released shortly thereafter.

Callings are difficult. Involving women is difficult. Whatever the solution is, it's probably difficult.

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8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

All sorts of things are talked about in bishopric meeting.  Should the RS President be asked to wait outside for 45 minutes in case a calling comes up?

And what about the EQ President?  Why not include him, too?

And the YM/YW Presidents?  They'll have insights.  

And so on.

I guess I just don't see how or why RS Presidents should be privileged above any other ward leader (I use "privileged" in its legalistic sense).  Every argument made for adding the RS President as a defacto bishopric member can also be applied to the EQP, and Primary President, and so on.  It becomes unmanageable rather quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think the the bishopric and the ward would benefit from having the RS president involved in all bishopric discussions, not just callings.  Just my opinion.  For the sake of discussion here, I was trying to keep it focused.

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Don’t forget the Sunday School President. He is a ward auxiliary leader as well. I’m sure he has insights to. 

As I mentioned in the post in which I put forward the question... the entire ward council would have insights but trying to make decisions on callings with such a large group would be difficult.  

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13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

All sorts of things are talked about in bishopric meeting.  Should the RS President be asked to wait outside for 45 minutes in case a calling comes up?

And what about the EQ President?  Why not include him, too?

And the YM/YW Presidents?  They'll have insights.  

And so on.

I guess I just don't see how or why RS Presidents should be privileged above any other ward leader (I use "privileged" in its legalistic sense).  Every argument made for adding the RS President as a defacto bishopric member can also be applied to the EQP, and Primary President, and so on.  It becomes unmanageable rather quickly.

Thanks,

-Smac

The EQ Pres would also have access to the vast majority of families in the ward, all in fact since men minister to families without men in them. Including him would probably also be a good idea imo. 

Primary Pres would only have knowledge of families with children in them, so not as global of knowledge.  Same with rest of the leaders  Their stewardship is more limited in numbers of families or exposure to them  

There is a point where numbers of those involved interferes with info being efficiently shared. There is probably a lot of individual variation of how large a meeting a leader can keep tightly focused and moving along. 

Never having been involved in such things, I think of the level of info I would want up front and if I were making decisions I would likely include the EQ and RS Preses if they were effective in their callings. 

Should the RS President be asked to wait outside for 45 minutes in case a calling comes up?”  

It could be arranged to deal with any callings coming up at a certain time. 

Edited by Calm

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1 minute ago, rockpond said:

It's not about any compartmentalized information.  

And even if the Bishop met with the RS President separately, on a weekly basis, it would still be impossible for her to counsel him on bishopric discussions that she isn't aware are taking place.

Yes.  And the EQP would also be unable to counsel the bishop.  The same goes for the Primary President.  And the YM President.  And the YW President.  And so on.

Again, I think the ward council is the venue for providing counsel to the bishop.  And the bishop is supposed to meet separately with each ward leader on a regular basis.  And in my experience, the bishop usually already spends a lot of additional time conferring with the RS President on matters where her input/counsel is useful.

And then there are the logistical issues...

So rather than call for substantial alterations to the status quo, perhaps we should seek to work with the status quo.  Chesterton's Fence comes to mind.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

The EQ Pres would also have access to the vast majority of families in the ward, all in fact since men minister to families without men in them. Including him would probably also be a good idea imo. 

So the bishopric now includes the RS Pres. and the EQP?  What about their counselors?

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Primary Pres would only have knowledge of families with children in them, so not as global of knowledge. 

Variations on a theme, though.  There are likely plenty of things the Primary Pres. knows that the RS Pres does not, and things the YW Pres knows the EQP does not, and so on.

Aren't ward councils and bishop-and-individual-ward-leader meetings supposed to cover this ground?

1 minute ago, Calm said:

There is a point where numbers of those involved interferes with info being efficiently shared. There is probably a lot of individual variation of how large a meeting a leader can keep tightly focused and moving along. 

Never having been involved in such things, I think of the level of info I would want up front and if I were making decisions I would likely include the EQ and RS Preses if they were effective in their callings. 

The bishop is often privy to all sorts of information that is known only to him.  Or known to him and the RS Pres (or the EQP).  I think such information is better kept "close to the vest," rather than discussed in Ward Council, or even in bishopric meetings.

Thanks,

-Smac

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7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I think the the bishopric and the ward would benefit from having the RS president involved in all bishopric discussions, not just callings.  Just my opinion.  For the sake of discussion here, I was trying to keep it focused.

Okay.  What about the EQP?  Should he be a defacto bishopric member, too?

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

As I mentioned in the post in which I put forward the question... the entire ward council would have insights but trying to make decisions on callings with such a large group would be difficult.  

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

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34 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

My Rs president doesn't know anything about me. She knows nothing at all. Our Bishop knows me and our family 100 times more. I moved while pregnant from 900 miles away. I had a 16 month old and a husband that traveled for work. I had a very high risk pregnancy.  I lost all my support when we moved.

     All I got was asking if I could take meals to people or watch other people's kids. This was within a week of moving in. No asking if I was okay. If I needed help or even trying to get to know me.  It turned me off the RS. I haven't been in 2 and half years. I doubt that will ever change.  

My RS Pres just got called and she came over to spend over an hour of me telling her what was going on with all members of my family. I have had several RS Presidents do that and a few who operated like yours did.  And my request for help finding an independent youth that can help clean my house as a part time job is going to be brought up in ward council this week.

I never go to RS as sitting through SM is all I have ever been able to manage since college so I ask for callings when functional and take off for home when not. 

Edited by Calm

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5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  And the EQP would also be unable to counsel the bishop.  The same goes for the Primary President.  And the YM President.  And the YW President.  And so on.

Again, I think the ward council is the venue for providing counsel to the bishop.  And the bishop is supposed to meet separately with each ward leader on a regular basis.  And in my experience, the bishop usually already spends a lot of additional time conferring with the RS President on matters where her input/counsel is useful.

And then there are the logistical issues...

So rather than call for substantial alterations to the status quo, perhaps we should seek to work with the status quo.  Chesterton's Fence comes to mind.

Thanks,

-Smac

Working with the status quo is what I have been doing.  And will keep doing.  And I am confident that the First Presidency is paying zero attention to my posts here.  So no worries - the status quo will remain.

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