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Mormon men are groomed not to listen to women

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12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I think the the bishopric and the ward would benefit from having the RS president involved in all bishopric discussions, not just callings.  Just my opinion.  For the sake of discussion here, I was trying to keep it focused.

As I mentioned in the post in which I put forward the question... the entire ward council would have insights but trying to make decisions on callings with such a large group would be difficult.  

All bishopric discussions?  So no more meetings with only the bishopric and their secretaries?  Including the Relief Society President in that meeting from now on?

Whoa, that's a pretty big change, but who knows, President Nelson might make that kind of change sometime pretty soon.  Maybe you should speak up and let him know that is what you want.  He would have to approve of that kind of thing, ya know.

Edited to add:  And who knows, maybe the First Presidency meeting will  also include the General Relief Society President too!

Edited by Ahab

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9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

All bishopric discussions?  So no more meetings with only the bishopric and their secretaries?  Including the Relief Society President in that meeting from now on?

Whoa, that's a pretty big change, but who knows, President Nelson might make that kind of change sometime pretty soon.  Maybe you should speak up and let him know that is what you want.  He would have to approve of that kind of thing, ya know.

Edited to add:  And who knows, maybe the First Presidency meeting will  also include the General Relief Society President too!

How about just having a woman as one of the counselors in the Bishopric?  How would you feel if that change took place?

It would give a woman’s perspective and input.  I don’t know if that will ever happen though.

What do counselors do that a woman couldn’t do?  They wouldn’t be able to set apart.  What else?

Edited by JulieM

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4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What do counselors do that a woman couldn’t do?  They wouldn’t be able to set apart.  What else?

A counselor in the bishopric presides in the bishops absence.  Someone who doesn't hold a priesthood office could not do this.

A non priesthood office holder could not set apart anyone for a calling.  This would put more upon the bishop and the other counselor.

These are the first two things I can think of off the top of my head.

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10 minutes ago, JulieM said:

How about just having a woman as one of the counselors in the Bishopric?  How would you feel if that change took place?

It would give a woman’s perspective and input.  I don’t know if that will ever happen though.

What do councilors do that a woman couldn’t do?  I can think of not being able to set apart.  What else?

Now you're talking about excluding a man from the meeting, instead of just adding a woman.  I think the bishop needs both of his counselors for spiritual support and the work they can do that women can not do.  No need to make a woman a counselor to the bishop just to be a part of a meeting of minds.  I would be in favor of having both of the Relief Society President's counselors available to her for that meeting, though.  Whether it's called the bishopric meeting or another meeting that the bishopric and Relief Society Presidency meet in together.

Not my call, though.  It's fun to speculate about it, though, huh.

Edited by Ahab

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3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

A counselor in the bishopric presides in the bishops absence.  Someone who doesn't hold a priesthood office could not do this.

A non priesthood office holder could not set apart anyone for a calling.  This would put more upon the bishop and the other counselor.

These are the first two things I can think of off the top of my head.

Yes, I stated that they wouldn’t be able to set apart.

As far as presiding, why not a woman?  She presides over Relief Society.  A woman presides over primary.  

Just wondering out loud here, but why not?

Edited by JulieM

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4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Now you're talking about excluding a man from the meeting, instead of just adding a woman.  I think the bishop needs both of his counselors for spiritual support and the work they can do that women can not do.  No need to make a woman a counselor to the bishop just to be a part of a meeting of minds.  I would be in favor of having both of the Relief Society President's counselors available to her for that meeting, though.  Whether it's called the bishopric meeting or another meeting that the bishopric and Relief Society President meet in together.

Not my call, though.  It's fun to speculate about it, though, huh.

Then maybe 3 counselors.  I think that’s been done on a general level, iirc.  

It would add a woman's voice and input.  Just a thought!!

Would men here object to that idea?

Edited by JulieM

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Just now, JulieM said:

Then maybe 3 counselors.  I think that’s been done on a general level, iirc.  

It would add a woman's voice and input.  Just a thought!!

Any counselor to the bishop would need to have the priesthood, and since the priesthood is not for women (order of the SON, hence a male priesthood) they would not be a part of the bishopric. They would still be Relief Society president and RSP counselors.

And yes it would provide a woman's voice and input, or 3 women's voices and inputs.

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17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

How about just having a woman as one of the counselors in the Bishopric?  

She would need to be ordained to the priesthood.  So that's a big change.  Huge, even.

17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

How would you feel if that change took place?

I'm open to the theoretical possibility of women being ordained to the priesthood.  And if it is the will of the Lord, I'm happy to go along with it.

"If."

17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

It would give a woman’s perspective and input.  I don’t know if that will ever happen though.

What do counselors do that a woman couldn’t do?  They wouldn’t be able to set apart.  What else?

They wouldn't be able to preside in Sacrament Meeting, or at baptismal services, or at funeral services.  They wouldn't be able to participate in disciplinary councils.

In short, they wouldn't be able to do almost all the things that counselors are obligated to do.

Thanks,

-Smac

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14 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I stated that they wouldn’t be able to set apart.

As far as presiding, why not a woman?  She presides over Relief Society.  A woman presides over primary.  

Just wondering out loud here, but why not?

Sacrament, disciplinary councils, blessings, oversee baptisms and ordinations, temple recommends, tithing and fast offerings, anything an unordained man could not do. . 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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8 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Then maybe 3 counselors.  I think that’s been done on a general level, iirc.  

It would add a woman's voice and input.  Just a thought!!

Would men here object to that idea?

Heh heh heh.  This is looking more and more like another one of those attempts to try to get women into the priesthood.  And it still isn't working.

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Just now, Ahab said:

Any counselor to the bishop would need to have the priesthood, ...

Why?  If they were a 3rd counselor, that’s no extra burden on the existing structure of a bishopric.  Why would they need the priesthood anymore than a counselor in a RS presidency or counselor in a primary presidency?  

Is it because of tradition, or does a counselor really have to hold the priesthood?

Some seem open to having the RS president attend bishopric meetings.  Why not a 3rd counselor instead of adding more meetings or work for the RS President?

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1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sacrament, disciplinary councils, blessings, oversee baptisms and ordinations, temple recommends. 

Aaaannnd... we've come full circle... right back to the point of Reiss' article.

I'm still interested in @bluebell's response to my reply to her post (if she feels the desire to respond).  Otherwise, I'm out.  Good evening all!

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34 minutes ago, Calm said:

My RS Pres just got called and she came over to spend over an hour of me telling her what was going on with all members of my family. I have had several RS Presidents do that and a few who operated like yours did.  And my request for help finding an independent youth that can help clean my house as a part time job is going to be brought up in ward council this week.

I never go to RS as sitting through SM is all I have ever been able to manage since college so I ask for callings when functional and take off for home when not. 

I have had one good one. She was a friend of my sister's.  She was great and got burnt out quickly.   I have been in 8 wards and she is the only one that knew anything about me or cared to find out. I also think if she is doing the job, she probably doesn't have the time to go to more meetings. 

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Heh heh heh.  This is looking more and more like another one of those attempts to try to get women into the priesthood.  And it still isn't working.

Actually, I’m not in favor of giving women the priesthood (actually, I really don’t care one way or the other).

All reasons given don’t convince me a woman couldn’t be called as a counselor to counsel or give a woman’s voice, knowing there were certain things the bishop or other counselors would continue exclusively doing.  

Anyway, just thoughts and questions!  Maybe it would he good to have a.woman's input each week on running the ward 😊

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

You got a  lot of likes for this post, and you deserve them.  This is a good assessment of the article.  For anyone jumping in late who wants to read @bluebell's original post with the quote (and bold that she refers to) here's the link to it.

I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

I've served as either a counselor or executive secretary multiple times.  This means I have spent many years attending bishopric meetings.  In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward.  But I'm also not sure how to best address this as discussions of callings happen in nearly every bishopric meeting.  Sometimes I think that the RS Pres should be a part of the bishopric.  But then, why just her?  What about the YW president and the Primary president.  In the young family wards in which I tend to find myself, the primary president often has stewardship over more individuals in the ward than any other auxiliary head.

But then you've got a bishopric meeting that looks more like ward council.  Trying to make decisions about callings in a group that large could be difficult.  Then again. It's no larger than when the apostles meet.

So I don't have a great solution.  Open to thoughts from others.

I've never been in a bishopric meeting so I can't say if your experience is normal (hopefully other men can chime in on that).  

I've been lucky so far to serve under bishops that keep me really in the loop about callings and things (and bishopric counselors that make me feel like I'm above them in the ward hierarchy).  I think that bishops and counselors can really help women feel included when they keep them in the loop about what's happening and when it's going to be happening and when they communicate a lot.  My bishop texts me all the time about calling stuff and frequently pulls me or others aside after ward council to give us information or ask opinions privately when it doesn't affect the group.  I get texts from the bishopric counselor over the youth about different activities often (and he comes to most of the activities and overnight camps so I feel like I know him and the bishop really well). 

For me, what makes me feel valued in a ward is feeling like my ideas and voice matter to my leaders, and especially that they consider me to have the authority to receive revelation in my calling.  When I know that my leaders believe that, and when they treat me like God put me in that calling for a reason and that they are going to honor that reason, then it doesn't really matter to me that i'm present in every meeting.

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28 minutes ago, JulieM said:

How about just having a woman as one of the counselors in the Bishopric?  How would you feel if that change took place?

It would give a woman’s perspective and input.  I don’t know if that will ever happen though.

What do counselors do that a woman couldn’t do?  They wouldn’t be able to set apart.  What else?

I wouldn't like a woman as a counselor.  It would sit right with me. 

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1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Actually, I’m not in favor of giving women the priesthood (actually, I really don’t care one way or the other).

All reasons given don’t convince me a woman couldn’t be called as a counselor to counsel or give a woman’s voice, knowing there were certain things the bishop or other counselors would continue exclusively doing.  

Anyway, just thoughts and questions!  Maybe it would he good to have a.woman's input each week on running the ward 😊

Well, as a member of a Bishopric....I'd welcome that.  

I can't tell you how many times we are discussing something and ask, "Well, I wonder what the sisters would feel or say about that?"

Also, it would be great to have someone help with the work load :P

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Guys, I think we've gotten sidetracked from the most important point that Jana makes---

That men have more chances to build relationships of trust with male leadership in the church than women have (due to the nature of leadership callings), and that that relationship (or lack thereof) has some very real consequences for gender issues in the church.   Without ordaining women, how can we change it?

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6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Aaaannnd... we've come full circle... right back to the point of Reiss' article.

 

The solution then would seem to be to break aware from the priesthood organization that the Lord has established and chart our own course.

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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Well, as a member of a Bishopric....I'd welcome that.  

I can't tell you how many times we are discussing something and ask, "Well, I wonder what the sisters would feel or say about that?"

Also, it would be great to have someone help with the work load :P

And do you guys then ask the sisters how they feel or what they would say?  I get texts from the bishopric during their meetings fairly frequently asking me those kinds of things, pertaining to my calling.

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18 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Why?  If they were a 3rd counselor, that’s no extra burden on the existing structure of a bishopric.  Why would they need the priesthood anymore than a counselor in a RS presidency or counselor in a primary presidency?  

Because of what it means for a person to be a counselor to the bishop.  It's not just a title, with no job description.  A counselor to the bishop must be able to perform duties that require an ordination to an office in the priesthood.  Otherwise that person would not have our Lord's authority (the type or order of authority our Lord has) to do those duties. And since our Lord is a male the type or order of priesthood that he has is a male priesthood.  Our Lord does authorize women to do particular things but he doesn't give any the same type or order of authority that he has.  Understanding this is fundamental to understanding why the priesthood is what it is.

Quote

Is it because of tradition, or does a counselor really have to hold the priesthood?

It's not just because of tradition.  A counselor to the bishop really does need to hold an office of the priesthood, specifically the office of high priest in that priesthood.  The office of deacon is not enough, and the office of teacher or priest or elder is not enough either.  The office of high priest is necessary because of the authorization it gives to those who hold that office in the priesthood.

Quote

Some seem open to having the RS president attend bishopric meetings.  Why not a 3rd counselor instead of adding more meetings or work for the RS President?

I hope I have already explained it well enough for you to understand now.

Edited by Ahab

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1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I've never been in a bishopric meeting so I can't say if your experience is normal (hopefully other men can chime in on that).  

I've been lucky so far to serve under bishops that keep me really in the loop about callings and things (and bishopric counselors that make me feel like I'm above them in the ward hierarchy).  I think that bishops and counselors can really help women feel included when they keep them in the loop about what's happening and when it's going to be happening and when they communicate a lot.  My bishop texts me all the time about calling stuff and frequently pulls me or others aside after ward council to give us information or ask opinions privately when it doesn't affect the group.  I get texts from the bishopric counselor over the youth about different activities often (and he comes to most of the activities and overnight camps so I feel like I know him and the bishop really well). 

For me, what makes me feel valued in a ward is feeling like my ideas and voice matter to my leaders, and especially that they consider me to have the authority to receive revelation in my calling.  When I know that my leaders believe that, and when they treat me like God put me in that calling for a reason and that they are going to honor that reason, then it doesn't really matter to me that i'm present in every meeting.

Thanks for the feedback.

I love hearing your experience.

When I was a counselor, I can tell you that I honestly did feel like auxiliary presidents were above me in the ward hierarchy (to the extent that such a hierarchy exists or should exist).  That's one of the things I loved about being a counselor is that I felt my job was to make the Bishop's job and the aux presidents jobs easier.  Or at least more effective/efficient.

I hope, and tend to believe, that your experience is characteristic of a majority of wards.

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16 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Then maybe 3 counselors.  I think that’s been done on a general level, iirc.  

It would add a woman's voice and input.  Just a thought!!

Would men here object to that idea?

Maybe I missed something but they do get the RS president's input when they have the Bishop's council meetings or welfare meetings or ward council meetings:
The handbook states:
"The bishopric usually meets at least weekly. The ward clerk and ward executive secretary attend; the clerk keeps a record of assignments and decisions. The bishop may invite others to attend as needed. For example, a sensitive matter could be addressed in an expanded bishopric meeting that includes the elders quorum president, Relief Society president, or both.

The RS president can attend all these meetings and add the woman's voice.

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2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The solution then would seem to be to break aware from the priesthood organization that the Lord has established and chart our own course.

Not any solution I've suggested.

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2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Maybe I missed something but they do get the RS president's input when they have the Bishop's council meetings or welfare meetings or ward council meetings:
The handbook states:
"The bishopric usually meets at least weekly. The ward clerk and ward executive secretary attend; the clerk keeps a record of assignments and decisions. The bishop may invite others to attend as needed. For example, a sensitive matter could be addressed in an expanded bishopric meeting that includes the elders quorum president, Relief Society president, or both.

The RS president can attend all these meetings and add the woman's voice.

I've attended about 8 years worth of bishopric meetings -- never had an RS president invited.

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