Mormon men are groomed not to listen to women

[rockpond]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

The bolded statements aren't true.  

As the YW's president in my ward I am often in meetings where I am equal partners (and the men treat me like one).  When I meet with the YMs president, for example.  When I meet with his counselors or advisors about activities or issues that relate to both the YM and YW, I am treated like the presiding person in the room (and I am).  And I boss the teenage boys around all the time was well.  When the YW are in charge of a combined activity then we are in charge, of the boys too and the YM leaders make sure the boys know that.  The same goes for the YW when the YM are in charge.  This is true for the Primary president dealing with any male teachers or cub scout leaders as well.  The primary president isn't equal partners with those males in their callings, she is their leader.

And Jana should know better than say the last bolded thing.  It is completely against church doctrine and teachings and makes me completely question her agenda and honesty in writing this piece. What could have been a good point is wasted when the writer does this kind of stuff.  She made it really easy for people to ignore her by doing that.

And I think that Jana has a point and shouldn't be ignored (which makes me even madder at her that she has made it so easy for her words to be dismissed).  Our church does have a history of protecting men who have done bad things to women and children.  I think that she makes a good point about why it's easy for that to happen.  It's something that should be acknowledged so it can be changed.  It's very easy to trust people we have a good relationship with and to doubt those we don't know.  Too much trust has been given to messed up men and too little to victims and that's probably largely the reason. 

I wanted to add:  I'm not saying that our church has a history of knowingly protecting evil men.  Only that our culture makes it easy for evil men to gain the trust and camaraderie of those who are in charge of disciplinary decisions while not making it very easy for female victims to have the same relationship of trust and familiarity with those in charge.  

You got a  lot of likes for this post, and you deserve them.  This is a good assessment of the article.  For anyone jumping in late who wants to read @bluebell's original post with the quote (and bold that she refers to) here's the link to it.

I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

I've served as either a counselor or executive secretary multiple times.  This means I have spent many years attending bishopric meetings.  In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward.  But I'm also not sure how to best address this as discussions of callings happen in nearly every bishopric meeting.  Sometimes I think that the RS Pres should be a part of the bishopric.  But then, why just her?  What about the YW president and the Primary president.  In the young family wards in which I tend to find myself, the primary president often has stewardship over more individuals in the ward than any other auxiliary head.

But then you've got a bishopric meeting that looks more like ward council.  Trying to make decisions about callings in a group that large could be difficult.  Then again. It's no larger than when the apostles meet.

So I don't have a great solution.  Open to thoughts from others.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I might have that. I love the feel of water and yeah, it seems to accentuate my skin’s sensitivity. I never feel threatened by it though.

I feel at home in it. But perhaps that might increase intrusive feelings if someone already felt uncomfortable. (As in I tend to feel worse about negative stuff happening in my home where I expect to feel safe than I do elsewhere where I tend to assume I need to be in my guard more.)

 

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward. 

Are you talking about, for example, relief society callings being made without a recommendation from the relief society president? 

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

Are you talking about, for example, relief society callings being made without a recommendation from the relief society president? 

No.  I think general practice is to consult with auxiliary presidents regarding any callings within their organizations.  But I think the RS/YW/Primary presidents insight and inspiration could also be important for all callings within the ward.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You got a  lot of likes for this post, and you deserve them.  This is a good assessment of the article.  For anyone jumping in late who wants to read @bluebell's original post with the quote (and bold that she refers to) here's the link to it.

I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

I've served as either a counselor or executive secretary multiple times.  This means I have spent many years attending bishopric meetings.  In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward.  But I'm also not sure how to best address this as discussions of callings happen in nearly every bishopric meeting.  Sometimes I think that the RS Pres should be a part of the bishopric.  But then, why just her?  What about the YW president and the Primary president.  In the young family wards in which I tend to find myself, the primary president often has stewardship over more individuals in the ward than any other auxiliary head.

But then you've got a bishopric meeting that looks more like ward council.  Trying to make decisions about callings in a group that large could be difficult.  Then again. It's no larger than when the apostles meet.

So I don't have a great solution.  Open to thoughts from others.

Well I don't think the proper solution is to have men remain silent unless a woman is present.  All women need to do is speak up to say something and I'm sure that comment will get routed back to the bishop, eventually.  Or a woman could make an appointment with the bishop to tell him what she thinks about something she wants to talk with him about.  Or she could even just stop him in the hall to say something to him.  Or to one of his counselors.  Or to some other woman who will be meeting with the bishop, eventually.

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You got a  lot of likes for this post, and you deserve them.  This is a good assessment of the article.  For anyone jumping in late who wants to read @bluebell's original post with the quote (and bold that she refers to) here's the link to it.

I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

I've served as either a counselor or executive secretary multiple times.  This means I have spent many years attending bishopric meetings.  In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward. 

In our ward, callings in the Primary, YW, and RS involve substantial and highly-deferred-to "input of the women" who lead those organizations.

Now, the RS president isn't consulted about callings in, say the YM organization.  I'm not sure how that's a problem.

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

But I'm also not sure how to best address this as discussions of callings happen in nearly every bishopric meeting.  Sometimes I think that the RS Pres should be a part of the bishopric.  But then, why just her? 

Indeed.  And why not the YW president?  And the YM president?  And the Sunday School president?  And the Primary President?  And the Elders Quorum president?

What privileges the RS president over all of these?  And if no such privilege exists, then there really isn't a problem.

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What about the YW president and the Primary president.  In the young family wards in which I tend to find myself, the primary president often has stewardship over more individuals in the ward than any other auxiliary head.

But she doesn't have stewardship over, say, the teenage boys.  So it wouldn't seem appropriate to seek her counsel/input/consent for callings in the YM organization.

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

But then you've got a bishopric meeting that looks more like ward council.  Trying to make decisions about callings in a group that large could be difficult.  Then again. It's no larger than when the apostles meet.

So I don't have a great solution.  Open to thoughts from others.

The bishop should confer with the YW President for callings within that stewardship.  The YW President doesn't really have stewardship over any other ward group.

The same goes for all ward leaders and groups.  The bishop should give substantial and due consideration, and deference where appropriate, to the input from, say, the RS President to matters within her stewardship, and to the Primary President to matters within her stewardship, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

I’m not sure I understand her point, but then I wasn’t listening. 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In our ward, callings in the Primary, YW, and RS involve substantial and highly-deferred-to "input of the women" who lead those organizations.

Now, the RS president isn't consulted about callings in, say the YM organization.  I'm not sure how that's a problem.

Indeed.  And why not the YW president?  And the YM president?  And the Sunday School president?  And the Primary President?  And the Elders Quorum president?

What privileges the RS president over all of these?  And if no such privilege exists, then there really isn't a problem.

But she doesn't have stewardship over, say, the teenage boys.  So it wouldn't seem appropriate to seek her counsel/input/consent for callings in the YM organization.

The bishop should confer with the YW President for callings within that stewardship.  The YW President doesn't really have stewardship over any other ward group.

The same goes for all ward leaders and groups.  The bishop should give substantial and due consideration, and deference where appropriate, to the input from, say, the RS President to matters within her stewardship, and to the Primary President to matters within her stewardship, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

What you've written here, in my experience, represents the common practice.

Two points to consider:

1.  The RS president has stewardship over all the sisters in the ward, regardless of which organization they may be called to serve in.

2.  I believe the sisters that lead ward auxiliaries could provide valuable perspective for all callings in the ward.  They often have a point of view that men lack.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Well I don't think the proper solution is to have men remain silent unless a woman is present.

I didn't suggest that.

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

All women need to do is speak up to say something and I'm sure that comment will get routed back to the bishop, eventually.  Or a woman could make an appointment with the bishop to tell him what she thinks about something she wants to talk with him about.  Or she could even just stop him in the hall to say something to him.  Or to one of his counselors.  Or to some other woman who will be meeting with the bishop, eventually.

All very different than being involved in the process and often the presiding women don't hear about callings (outside of their organizations) until they are sustained at the pulpit.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But she doesn't have stewardship over, say, the teenage boys.  So it wouldn't seem appropriate to seek her counsel/input/consent for callings in the YM organization.

Due to her involvement in welfare and stewardship of their mothers, she may be aware of issues and needs in the family of potential leaders or even in the families of the boys themselves where they might need special support. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Calm

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No.  I think general practice is to consult with auxiliary presidents regarding any callings within their organizations.  But I think the RS/YW/Primary presidents insight and inspiration could also be important for all callings within the ward.

In general I think that practice of limiting the discussion to those who have the appropriate stewardship is wise.  There may be times when specific conversations with another leader is appropriate, and I have seen bishops do this.

 

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So I am watching some of my FB friends get reactions as they share this. One friend is trying to explain the pain she felt when her Bishop refused to allow her son to get baptised because, in his words, she had not given him up for adoption 8 years previous after getting pregnant without being married.She's trying to explain this pain to her dad, who was in the room when the bishop said this and who did not stand up to the bishop for her. And many other painful situations involving her leaders. And this friend is one of many women with very painful experiences, not being listened to. 

In the absence of being able to record and tally such instances and create an informative dataset, we have the male-dominated leadership structure of the system to evaluate. Can you please try to consider how the structure impacts women in such situations?

I call BS on this story.

 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

In general I think that practice of limiting the discussion to those who have the appropriate stewardship is wise.  There may be times when specific conversations with another leader is appropriate, and I have seen bishops do this.

 

The RS president has stewardship over ALL of the sisters in the ward... including those who are called to serve in primary, sunday school, young women, etc.  And yet she is generally not consulted regarding those callings.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

All very different than being involved in the process and often the presiding women don't hear about callings (outside of their organizations) until they are sustained at the pulpit.

For any woman to be involved in any process the bishop presides over all she needs to do is speak up to share what she thinks.  Nothing complicated about that and it doesn't even require an appointment as long as the bishop has the time to listen to her.  She could even just write him a letter to share what she thinks with him.  Or an email, or text, or twitter. Letter writing isn't as popular as it used to be in the olden days.

[truth a la carte]

19 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I'd like to get your thoughts on this...

I've served as either a counselor or executive secretary multiple times.  This means I have spent many years attending bishopric meetings.  In recent years it has started to bother me that so many decisions are made (most noticeably regarding callings) without the input of the women who are leaders of the ward.  But I'm also not sure how to best address this as discussions of callings happen in nearly every bishopric meeting.  Sometimes I think that the RS Pres should be a part of the bishopric.  But then, why just her?  What about the YW president and the Primary president.  In the young family wards in which I tend to find myself, the primary president often has stewardship over more individuals in the ward than any other auxiliary head.

But then you've got a bishopric meeting that looks more like ward council.  Trying to make decisions about callings in a group that large could be difficult.  Then again. It's no larger than when the apostles meet.

So I don't have a great solution.  Open to thoughts from others.

Yes, you are right that this is a problem that has no simple solution. Yes, the RS president should be far more involved with callings. When I was serving as RS pres, I typically found that my strongest inspiration was limited to RS/YW, which may be a good place to start.

[rockpond]

Just now, Ahab said:

For any woman to be involved in any process the bishop presides over all she needs to do is speak up to share what she thinks.  Nothing complicated about that and it doesn't even require an appointment as long as the bishop has the time to listen to her.  She could even just write him a letter to share what she thinks with him.  Or an email, or text, or twitter. Letter writing isn't as popular as it used to be in the olden days.

Again, that's true but if she is not present for the discussions then she would have no idea what to speak/write to him about.

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

As far as evidence, in member-leadership situations where there might be out-of-bounds leadership, we have only our personal experience and direct observation, besides hearsay. (With exceptional cases, perhaps, that hit the news or are digitally recorded.)

 

There are always other witnesses, especially in theses situations.  You could ask the other witnesses, you could ask the bishop, you could ask the stake president, the ward executive secretary, the missionaries, etc. 

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The RS president has stewardship over ALL of the sisters in the ward... including those who are called to serve in primary, sunday school, young women, etc.  And yet she is generally not consulted regarding those callings.

I have never looked at it this way..but how true. 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, truth a la carte said:

Yes, you are right that this is a problem that has no simple solution. Yes, the RS president should be far more involved with callings. When I was serving as RS pres, I typically found that my strongest inspiration was limited to RS/YW, which may be a good place to start.

Since primary children and young women don't often receive callings, it does feel like a simple solution would be to invite the RS president to bishopric meeting.

Do you think that might have felt awkward or uncomfortable to you?  Being the sole woman invited into Bishopric meeting on a regular basis?

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The RS president has stewardship over ALL of the sisters in the ward... including those who are called to serve in primary, sunday school, young women, etc.  And yet she is generally not consulted regarding those callings.

She does't need to be "consulted".  All she needs to do to weigh in on an issue is to be heard when she has something to say.  And all she needs to do to be heard is to speak up, or communicate by paper or some electronic device.

I don't know about you but most women I know already know how to be heard.  They're like experts at it.  They talk and people listen.  Or at least I do.  I know that when women talk, people should listen to them.  And most bishops I know are very good listeners.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The fact they are in wet clingy clothing can make a difference for some. 

I suppose, but the material is usually very thick, not transparent,  and very modest.

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The RS president has stewardship over ALL of the sisters in the ward... including those who are called to serve in primary, sunday school, young women, etc.  And yet she is generally not consulted regarding those callings.

But the relief society president has no stewardship for those callings.  The bishop has stewardship for everyone in the ward.  While he may consult another ward leader in some cases, I don't see why a discussion of a calling in YW would need to involve the RS.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Again, that's true but if she is not present for the discussions then she would have no idea what to speak/write to him about.

I do not understand what it is that you do not understand on this issue.  For a woman to discuss something with the bishop all she would have to do is to talk with him, and the bishop would then listen to her.  

Are you thinking that maybe the women in the ward don't know what is going on in the ward, not even in the callings they preside over?  That somehow they are totally out of the loop unless the bishop tells them what is going on, as if only the bishop can make them aware?

That has not been my experience with women I have known in any ward I have been a part of.  Women seem to always know what is going on, and they often share their own ideas about things they would like to see happen.

Maybe things are just different where you live, or maybe you're just not aware of how much women generally know and are aware of regarding the things around them.

 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I suppose, but the material is usually very thick, not transparent,  and very modest.

There are those who are naturally anxious in water and having heavy clothing on them might increase their sense of vulnerability that in turn leads to a heightened sense of wrongness if they are aware of problems with those working with them. 

So I can see at least two temperaments that would likely have problems as rpn describes, but this would be a probably small subset imo. 

Otoh, participating in an ordinance with anyone one knows is unworthy could be troubling and even traumatic. It would be wise to teach youth and adults how to deal with such situations, including who in leadership to talk to if concerns are strong. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But the relief society president has no stewardship for those callings.  The bishop has stewardship for everyone in the ward.  While he may consult another ward leader in some cases, I don't see why a discussion of a calling in YW would need to involve the RS.

It is about providing information that can help lead to better callings, imo.  Perhaps they are aware of special interests that would contribute to the calling or a special need that should remove the possibility of being called. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Calm