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smac97

DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism?

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not have a personal definition. I use the general one. I am not Ahab.

Fair enough.  I looked up the definition online and the first one that came up is:

White Nationalist - one of a group of militant whites who espouse white supremacy and advocate enforced racial segregation

Do you really think that applies to anyone at all in this DezNat movement?

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I once participated in a Facebook experience where random people got together and communicated with each other in a hybrid form of English, which the group created as it went.  The goal was to use context of a certain TV show, coupled with the most obscure words, the least acceptable grammar, the bare minimum of sentence structure, tortured intentional misspellings, and still be understood by the group.   We ended up with something that sounded completely incomprehensible to someone who hadn't watched the TV show, but was totally understandable by the group.   I figure we were just one worried mommy away from getting branded as a dangerous group full of threatening people with nefarious goals, because some of the phrases we used portrayed some rather violent imagery, use of violence to achieve domination over other groups, etc.

All you need is a catchy hashtag, a few teenagers talking out of their rear end, and one worried mommy with a facebook account full of other mommies with lots of capacity to worry.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon

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8 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I once participated in a Facebook experience where random people got together and communicated with each other in a hybrid form of English, which the group created as it went.  The goal was to use context of a certain TV show, coupled with the most obscure words, the least acceptable grammar, the bare minimum of sentence structure, tortured intentional misspellings, and still be understood by the group.   We ended up with something that sounded completely incomprehensible to someone who hadn't watched the TV show, but was totally understandable by the group.

 

What fun!  How did that get started?

Edited by Calm

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2 hours ago, oremites said:

Fair enough.  I looked up the definition online and the first one that came up is:

White Nationalist - one of a group of militant whites who espouse white supremacy and advocate enforced racial segregation

Do you really think that applies to anyone at all in this DezNat movement?

Nope though I would argue it's not a movement. It's a hashtag

Edited by Avatar4321

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2 hours ago, oremites said:

Fair enough.  I looked up the definition online and the first one that came up is:

White Nationalist - one of a group of militant whites who espouse white supremacy and advocate enforced racial segregation

Do you really think that applies to anyone at all in this DezNat movement?

I suspect a few of them. The guy with the Pepe avatar is trying to signal that but I guess it could be some rather outlandish irony. Another guy with a “reverse racism” image makes me suspicious. It is also possible and even probable there are quiet ones who do not signal their views.

This is not a knock on the movement if it can even be called that. Twitter hashtags can be useful for self-identification but there is also no regulation. If I started a hashtag designed to discuss ways to mitigate abuses in the foster care system white nationalists could use it and that is not a slight on the movement as a whole.

There are more likely to be white nationalists in this hashtag rather than a “progressive” LDS hashtag just because of potential overlap but there are more likely to be autocratic communists in the other group so it is a bit of a wash

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56 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I once participated in a Facebook experience where random people got together and communicated with each other in a hybrid form of English, which the group created as it went.  The goal was to use context of a certain TV show, coupled with the most obscure words, the least acceptable grammar, the bare minimum of sentence structure, tortured intentional misspellings, and still be understood by the group.   We ended up with something that sounded completely incomprehensible to someone who hadn't watched the TV show, but was totally understandable by the group.   I figure we were just one worried mommy away from getting branded as a dangerous group full of threatening people with nefarious goals, because some of the phrases we used portrayed some rather violent imagery, use of violence to achieve domination over other groups, etc.

All you need is a catchy hashtag, a few teenagers talking out of their rear end, and one worried mommy with a facebook account full of other mommies with lots of capacity to worry.

That sounds fun!

People love moral clarity and a feeling of righteousness which makes clickbait, satanic scares, drug scares, etc. work so well on organizing anger. I know a guy who is a journalist. He worked for a small local paper and it was a slow news day. They put in a story about a teenager who had tortured a kitten. This was in the earlier days of the Internet but they had a comment feature. All the employees were shocked by the incredible response. The story was very popular and comments kept rolling in. He said the weird thing was all the comments seemed unanimous that torturing kittens is bad and should not be done. Despite this a lot of the comments were written as if they were rebutting some kind of pro-kitten torture lobby with a lot of emotional condemnation of all the kitten torturers. This kind of thing is like catnip to many (most? all?) people.

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Btw deznat reaction to the article:


Deznat reaction

I'm surprised he is targetting Tannerguzy specifically. Seen him around never seen him or his wife support anything that resembles white nationalism.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect a few of them. The guy with the Pepe avatar is trying to signal that but I guess it could be some rather outlandish irony. Another guy with a “reverse racism” image makes me suspicious. It is also possible and even probable there are quiet ones who do not signal their views.

There are more likely to be white nationalists in this hashtag rather than a “progressive” LDS hashtag just because of potential overlap but there are more likely to be autocratic communists in the other group so it is a bit of a wash

Because someone posts a picture of a cartoon frog, you "suspect" they might be a militant white who espouses white supremacy and advocates enforced racial segregation?   Even though the whole cartoon frog thing is a perfect example of something being slandered with the label "white nationalism" with no real evidence other than "I don't like their politics"?

Because someone posts a "reverse racism" image, you "suspect" they might be a militant white who espouses white supremacy and advocates enforced racial segregation?  That's reading a lot into one image, don't you think?

But I guess if you're an expert in the whole dog-whistle, mind-reading area, you don't need much evidence to jump to those kinds of conclusions.

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1 hour ago, oremites said:

Because someone posts a picture of a cartoon frog, you "suspect" they might be a militant white who espouses white supremacy and advocates enforced racial segregation?   Even though the whole cartoon frog thing is a perfect example of something being slandered with the label "white nationalism" with no real evidence other than "I don't like their politics"?

Because someone posts a "reverse racism" image, you "suspect" they might be a militant white who espouses white supremacy and advocates enforced racial segregation?  That's reading a lot into one image, don't you think?

But I guess if you're an expert in the whole dog-whistle, mind-reading area, you don't need much evidence to jump to those kinds of conclusions.

Yes and yes.

Recognizing dog whistles is not mind reading. It is knowing that people pick symbols for a reason. Am I sure? No, they could be trying to be ironic or trying to stir up outrage or just be plain ignorant but I doubt it.

Almost no one knew about Pepe until 4chan started using it as a symbol of alt right hate. Pepe’s creator has sued many hate sites and individuals that have used the image on copyright grounds and continually wins and is upset about his character being used that way. So yes, if you use Pepe as your avatar you are making a statement. If you use a swastika as your avatar you are making a statement even if you try to whine about how it is an ancient symbol with positive connotations back then. Almost everyone who knows what Pepe is used for knows what they are saying when they use it.

I do not have to give them the benefit of any doubt. This kind of inane thinking is why dog whistling works. The idea if there is any possible explanation other then racism or hate or whatever that I have to assume they are innocent is insane. If you keep blowing the dog whistle and are always surrounded by dogs that adore you it is pretty obvious it is intentional.

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Almost no one knew about Pepe until 4chan started using it as a symbol of alt right hate.

Sorta like how the Nazi's (mis)appropriated the swastika?  Is that your point?

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Pepe’s creator has sued many hate sites and individuals that have used the image on copyright grounds and continually wins and is upset about his character being used that way. So yes, if you use Pepe as your avatar you are making a statement.

But what about Buddhists and other non-Nazi who use the swastika?  What statement are they making?

swastikas_international_large.gif?v=1492

Is the Swastika permanently and indelibly stigmatized? 

Or does context matter?

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you use a swastika as your avatar you are making a statement even if you try to whine about how it is an ancient symbol with positive connotations back then.

I saw plenty of swastikas when I was serving as a missionary in Taiwan.  It's "positive connotations" still exist to Buddhists.

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Almost everyone who knows what Pepe is used for knows what they are saying when they use it.

I wonder about that.

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I do not have to give them the benefit of any doubt. This kind of inane thinking is why dog whistling works. The idea if there is any possible explanation other then racism or hate or whatever that I have to assume they are innocent is insane. If you keep blowing the dog whistle and are always surrounded by dogs that adore you it is pretty obvious it is intentional.

I'm not a fan of the extremist right.  That said, I have some questions about the legitimacy of complaints about Pepe, "dog whistling," and other nefarious things attributed to them (I have similar questions about the legitimacy of shrill and unreasoned accusations against the far left).

Thanks,

-Smac

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11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

Is the Swastika permanently and indelibly stigmatized? 

Or does context matter?

Context does matter and if I saw a Pepe avatar on a forum dedicated to comics by someone who shares his favorite Pepe comics I would give them the doubt. In the context of this hashtag I will suspect the worst.

If a blond haired blue eyed guy has a swastika on his clothing while walking in an alt-right protest surrounded by ugly weirdos giving the Nazi salute I am not going going to believe him if he insists he is wearing it as a Buddhist symbol of peace and I would consider anyone who believes him to be either an idiot or a liar who is a secret supporter. Now these cases are not that bad. They are very suspicious though and if one wanted to date my sister or be my friend or do something that would bring them into my life I would watch for signs. For the Pepe thing I would also ask them why.

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7 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think this was the saddest thing I have read today:

“So I don’t know if I think of myself fully as DezNat yet”

It is a Twitter tag not an identity! What is wrong with you?!?

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9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:
Quote

Is the Swastika permanently and indelibly stigmatized? 

Or does context matter?

Context does matter

So Pepe is not permanently and indelibly stigmatized?

Can it sometimes just be an innocuous meme, and not be a racist dog whistle?

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

and if I saw a Pepe avatar on a forum dedicated to comics by someone who shares his favorite Pepe comics I would give them the doubt. In the context of this hashtag I will suspect the worst.

I've seen Pepe used in a ton of memes, many (perhaps even most) of which seem to be just a bit of nose-tweaking.

I abhor racism, but I also quite dislike false accusations/imputations of racism.

Thanks,

-Smac

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18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So Pepe is not permanently and indelibly stigmatized?

Can it sometimes just be an innocuous meme, and not be a racist dog whistle?

I've seen Pepe used in a ton of memes, many (perhaps even most) of which seem to be just a bit of nose-tweaking.

I abhor racism, but I also quite dislike false accusations/imputations of racism.

Thanks,

-Smac

At this point I doubt it can just be an innocuous meme.

The meme does not have to be explicitly racist to be used. Often it is just an intentional tag of the user’s beliefs even when the content in question is benign.

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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

At this point I doubt it can just be an innocuous meme.

Okay.  Thanks for your input.  

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

The meme does not have to be explicitly racist to be used. Often it is just an intentional tag of the user’s beliefs even when the content in question is benign.

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I've seen no real evidence that Pepe denotes racism.  However, I have seen all sorts of unsubstantiated attributions of racism to it.

Thanks,

-Smac

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Thank you for the discussion.  I just want to leave two final thoughts.

I've heard plenty of assertions that Pepe is a symbol of hate, but since these kinds of accusations are thrown around like necklaces at a Mardi Gras parade, I'm very skeptical since it doesn't match my personal experience.  I don't think I "get" what Pepe is all about, but when I've seen it, it's never associated with anything I'd call hate or white nationalism.   To beat the "misuse of labels" dead horse, what is a "hate site"?  A site where I disagree with the politics (at least that seems the popular definition).

Second, I find I'm much happier if I assume the best about people and give them the benefit of the doubt.  Most people are pretty straight-forward about what they believe if you give them a chance.  I think this whole "dog whistle" thing is just another form of "looking beyond the mark".

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5 hours ago, Calm said:
5 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I once participated in a Facebook experience where random people got together and communicated with each other in a hybrid form of English, which the group created as it went.  The goal was to use context of a certain TV show, coupled with the most obscure words, the least acceptable grammar, the bare minimum of sentence structure, tortured intentional misspellings, and still be understood by the group.   We ended up with something that sounded completely incomprehensible to someone who hadn't watched the TV show, but was totally understandable by the group.

What fun!  How did that get started?

That was part of the fun - it wasn't an organized thing.  It didn't really have a start or end date, much less any written rules.  People just found the place and started contributing.

I think you can still find some of it on Facebook - try searching for "why helo it is i"

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

you use a swastika as your avatar you are making a statement even if you try to whine about how it is an ancient symbol with positive connotations back then

I would agree that in our culture the connection with Nazis is too strong not to be acknowledged, but from people of cultures that currently or historically use it as a positive symbol I do not believe one should make that assumption. 

you keep blowing the dog whistle and are always surrounded by dogs that adore you it is pretty obvious it is intentional.”

Context therefore matters. If the context is missing, should the assumption be made?

add-on:  I see this gets answered 

Edited by Calm

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I've been reading from that hashtag for the last several months as there has occasionally been some valued insight. A lot of it that I've seen involves retweets criticizing some LGBT students at BYU who are known for walking the line between wanting the Church to be more lenient towards LGBT ideas (particularly at BYU and in that context) and sustaining the Prophet and Apostles.

More often than not I've discovered that there is a spirit of resentment towards people, members or not, who are hostile towards the Church itself and teachings of Prophets. Their idea is that they are defenders of the good name of the Church and fight fire with fire when confronting false doctrine or wolves in sheep's clothing. They recognize the growing dissent among some Church members online who seem to hearken to the voice of bloggers and retweeters online with opinions galore rather than the still small voice. The DezNat hashtag does have several spiritually observant people, but I think a majority, from my view anyway, lack any compassion and are not measured or meek in most of the content shared and posted.

As someone who is same-sex attracted myself, yet considers myself very committed to the Lord's Church, this hashtag caught my attention as it connects to their interaction with BYU students (@calvinjburke...not his real name) who are riding the fence between fully sustaining the Brethren, but wishing things were different. Calvin can be an incredible force for good, but he plays both sides as he tries to have compassion for the LGBT community he is part of while still sustaining the Prophets and not going too far. That's my take anyway.

I am of the strong opinion that the association of DezNat with alt-right or white nationalism is an attempt to attack and de-legitimize the hashtag as a whole and create very real stigma. I've never encountered them being racist or advocating violence, perhaps fringe individuals, but they are very blunt and harsh, even hostile, towards those they perceive as trying to mislead others. They strongly defend the Family Proclamation. Their error is in having no compassion or love for their brothers and sisters that they oppose, there is no meekness and long-suffering. 

See this thread on Twitter for my take on it.

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1 hour ago, Gillebre said:

I am of the strong opinion that the association of DezNat with alt-right or white nationalism is an attempt to attack and de-legitimize the hashtag as a whole and create very real stigma. I've never encountered them being racist or advocating violence, perhaps fringe individuals, but they are very blunt and harsh, even hostile, towards those they perceive as trying to mislead others. They strongly defend the Family Proclamation. Their error is in having no compassion or love for their brothers and sisters that they oppose, there is no meekness and long-suffering. 

Thanks for the insight.

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On 9/10/2019 at 11:17 AM, The Nehor said:

I did a dive into the tag. Looks like it is fairly standard LDS Freedom Forum level discourse. A lot of self-righteousness. As to far right some of the users used images, avatars, and comments that dog-whistled racism and Trump support (Pepe, images that allude to black slavery) but not the majority. Most are just angry at the progmos (presumably progressive mormons?) who are clearly violating their covenants or something. A couple of screeds about the forces of leftism taking over the country and being ready to fight them but not too much of it. One allusion to a militia group.

I really do not like them but they are not majority fascists. They probably have roughly as many fascists as a percentage of their base as this board does.

One post made me laugh. An anti went to the Manhattan temple and waited outside for three hours and said no one went in or out in all that time and crowed that it proved the church was weakening. The response showed that the temple was closed for cleaning with the comment: “Satan is not sending his best.”

Do we have any fascists here? Or are you saying the DezNat group has no fascists?

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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The below from urban dictionary sounds like several men in our ward in California in the 1960s: iow, nothing new in terms of LDSA white right wing culturalism

DezNat

Short for "Deseret Nation." A hashtag used by people who follow and honor Christ's teachings and sustain the prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I am a child of God. Follow the prophet. #deznat
by ChooseTheRight January 07, 2019

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