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Duncan

Temple symbolism talk

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15 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The first place to start looking is at your assumptions.  

How so?

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17 hours ago, Gervin said:

Well, none have been found and there is no consensus as to where to begin a search.   The criteria for a location is that it must support a people who, for 1,000 years, maintained a spoken and written language of Afroasiatic origins.  That maintenance plan would also include those Hebrew elements associated with the Temple.  Where do you suggest looking?

 

Did they still speak Hebrew? I doubt it except maybe as a religious language. Some of the religious and possibly political elite had to be able to read their version of Hebrew and their version of Egyptian but beyond that?

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On 9/12/2019 at 1:23 PM, The Nehor said:

Did they still speak Hebrew? I doubt it except maybe as a religious language. Some of the religious and possibly political elite had to be able to read their version of Hebrew and their version of Egyptian but beyond that?

"Some of the religious?" The Torah was read weekly.  If not written in Hebrew, then what?  If not heard in Hebrew, then what?  

If the Book of Mormon peoples spoke a Proto-Mayan language then they would have been familiar with the writings and symbology of same.  They could have written the Book of Mormon on stone using glyphs and not had to worry about a lack of space, or hefting the writings to some other part of the world to bury.  They could have been buried in situ, so that about 19th centuries later any reputable Mayan scholar could do all the translation.  

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1 hour ago, Gervin said:

"Some of the religious?" The Torah was read weekly.  If not written in Hebrew, then what?  If not heard in Hebrew, then what?  

If the Book of Mormon peoples spoke a Proto-Mayan language then they would have been familiar with the writings and symbology of same.  They could have written the Book of Mormon on stone using glyphs and not had to worry about a lack of space, or hefting the writings to some other part of the world to bury.  They could have been buried in situ, so that about 19th centuries later any reputable Mayan scholar could do all the translation.  

If not written or heard in Hebrew then written or heard in the local language? Is that supposed to be a hard question?

I doubt it was God's plan for a random Mayan scholar to translate it.

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On 9/10/2019 at 10:50 AM, 10THAmendment said:

Do you have any sources that show that? In my research I haven’t ever come across any substantial similarities between the Freemason ceremony and any other ritual in history. 

Really?  There are plenty of elements from the endowment that are labeled "masonic" that are found in earlier records, not the least of which is Genesis.

I am not opposed to the notion that Joseph borrowed from Masonry, but even the Masons aren't entirely sure where their rites came from.  Historians can readily determine the history of Freemasonry, but the origin of the rites is a mystery.

No reason the endowment and freemasonry can't have a common ancestor.

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If not written or heard in Hebrew then written or heard in the local language? Is that supposed to be a hard question?

I think the hard question (to answer) was my first -  "why no inscriptions, symbology, or edificial evidence of a Jewish-believing people?"

Saying their language was "local," doesn't really tell us much.  "Local" languages in MesoAmerica are fairly well documented (not sure if you saw - Proto-Mayan language )  Do you put the Book of Mormon people into one of these languages?  (on top of the Hebrew and Egyptian that were retained)

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5 hours ago, Gervin said:

I think the hard question (to answer) was my first -  "why no inscriptions, symbology, or edificial evidence of a Jewish-believing people?"

Saying their language was "local," doesn't really tell us much.  "Local" languages in MesoAmerica are fairly well documented (not sure if you saw - Proto-Mayan language )  Do you put the Book of Mormon people into one of these languages?  (on top of the Hebrew and Egyptian that were retained)

I have guessed proto-Mayan in the past but I do not play in that sandbox much any more. I doubt Hebrew was the common tongue of either the Nephites or the Lamanites.

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On 9/13/2019 at 11:41 PM, JLHPROF said:

Really?  There are plenty of elements from the endowment that are labeled "masonic" that are found in earlier records, not the least of which is Genesis.

I am not opposed to the notion that Joseph borrowed from Masonry, but even the Masons aren't entirely sure where their rites came from.  Historians can readily determine the history of Freemasonry, but the origin of the rites is a mystery.

No reason the endowment and freemasonry can't have a common ancestor.

It becomes problematic when the endowment has gone through changes to make it less Masonic. That shows that Freemasonry is the entire fundamental base for the endowment which was already evident to begin with. 

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6 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

It becomes problematic when the endowment has gone through changes to make it less Masonic. That shows that Freemasonry is the entire fundamental base for the endowment which was already evident to begin with. 

Only if you consider those changes valid.  Personally I think eternal elements have been removed because of the feelings you describe.  Same with the garments.

Edited by JLHPROF

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Only if you consider those changes valid.  Personally I think eternal elements have been removed because of the feelings you describe.  Same with the garments.

Same. Important parts that have been a part of ritual ceremonies and sacrifices since Genesis. The modern age is a little sensitive to supposedly “darker” elements of the endowment that had their sources in ancient practices and the scriptures. 

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20 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

It becomes problematic when the endowment has gone through changes to make it less Masonic. That shows that Freemasonry is the entire fundamental base for the endowment which was already evident to begin with. 

The PRESENTATION of the endowment uses Masonic symbols as a language. It could be in another symbolic language, but Joseph used the symbols he was most familiar with

You are seeing it too literally, imo. Look to the meanings behind the symbols.

Masonry does not come close to promising complete theosis.

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On 9/14/2019 at 11:03 PM, 10THAmendment said:

It becomes problematic when the endowment has gone through changes to make it less Masonic. That shows that Freemasonry is the entire fundamental base for the endowment which was already evident to begin with. 

I can see a middle ground between my thought and your thought on this point.  I think Joseph saw the symbols that Freemasonry was using before he knew anything more about those symbols than the Freemasons understood about them, so that at that point Joseph was on the same level of understanding as the Freemasons were, progressing from level to level within Freemasonry.  Joseph became a Grand Master in Freemasonry, and if I recall correctly from my studies he progressed as far in Freemasonry as anyone in Freemasonry can.  But then Joseph went on even farther than anyone in Freemasonry did as God inspired him to know more about it.  And as i turns out Freemasonry was not the original origin of those symbols and the understanding they had of those symbols, as you should be able to see after you study some more about those symbols.  Use that book I referenced from Hugh Nibley and you'll see how far those symbols go back, and what their purpose was way back even before there was anything known as Freemasonry.

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On 9/9/2019 at 9:46 AM, Duncan said:

What would you think about a talk in a conference (not General Conference) about Temple Symbolism? given by a member that their wheel is still turning but the hamster is long gone

I'd like to hear it. Many times in Sacrament meeting (and Stake and General Conf.), we all hear things from the Spirit that the speakers might not be saying word for word.

If it's all about the Masons, I'd get bored but if it elaborated on the acoustics of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve's natural, outdoor Temple, that woudl be cool. If it elaborated on lesser known Temples from the Old Testament, that's be cool as well.

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