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Becoming Gods?

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13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Probably get a whole solar system.

I think we're talking a whole universe, actually.

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Just now, Stargazer said:

I think we're talking a whole universe, actually.

Yes, I believe so, too.  It just won't be "our own" in the sense that it will be only ours and ours alone, individually, because everything we will have will also be what our Father in heaven has, too.  And what Jesus also has.  With the "we" in this case being everyone who is exalted and given all of the same blessings that our Father in heaven has.  And not just from this planet but from everywhere else in the universe where our kind of being exists now.  Regardless of how many persons that is.  Everyone who is exalted will share in all that is, wherever it is, everywhere, both now and into the future forever.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes, I believe so, too.  It just won't be "our own" in the sense that it will be only ours and ours alone, individually, because everything we will have will also be what our Father in heaven has, too.  And what Jesus also has.  With the "we" in this case being everyone who is exalted and given all of the same blessings that our Father in heaven has.  And not just from this planet but from everywhere else in the universe where our kind of being exists now.  Regardless of how many persons that is.  Everyone who is exalted will share in all that is, wherever it is, everywhere, both now and into the future forever.

That’s a good thought process, though I do disagree. I think the earth is Christ’s and will be presented and given to the Father. Thus making, at least, this planet His. He may share it or use it for other things, but it was created by the power that He gave the Son and it was given to Him, thus it is His to do with what He will.

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13 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

That’s a good thought process, though I do disagree. I think the earth is Christ’s and will be presented and given to the Father. Thus making, at least, this planet His. He may share it or use it for other things, but it was created by the power that He gave the Son and it was given to Him, thus it is His to do with what He will.

 You don't seem to realize that everyone who is exalted will be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and have everything that he has, which will also be everything that our Father has.  Our Father did delegate some duties to Jesus Christ and they each have their own work to do but they both share in everything that each other has.  Nothing belongs to "only" our Father or "only" Jesus Christ, in terms of possessions. And nothing will belong to "only" those who are also exalted like them, either.  Even our children belong and will continue to belong to our Father, eve though his title may be different than ours, with him being more of a great and grand Dad than we are even though we are also a Dad.

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51 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 You don't seem to realize that everyone who is exalted will be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and have everything that he has, which will also be everything that our Father has.  Our Father did delegate some duties to Jesus Christ and they each have their own work to do but they both share in everything that each other has.  Nothing belongs to "only" our Father or "only" Jesus Christ, in terms of possessions. And nothing will belong to "only" those who are also exalted like them, either.  Even our children belong and will continue to belong to our Father, eve though his title may be different than ours, with him being more of a great and grand Dad than we are even though we are also a Dad.

Oh I realize that, I’ve read the scriptures. I just believe different, to each his own I suppose! 

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3 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Oh I realize that, I’ve read the scriptures. I just believe different, to each his own I suppose! 

Okay I'll comment on what you said then as I attempt to try to understand what you said a little better:

You said: I think the earth is Christ’s and will be presented and given to the Father. Thus making, at least, this planet His. He may share it or use it for other things, but it was created by the power that He gave the Son and it was given to Him, thus it is His to do with what He will.

Now I would like you to tell me whose planet this planet will be when the Son presents it and gives it to the Father. I believe it will still belong to the Son because the Son will inherit or has already inherited everything the Father has.  So it will still belong to both of them, even though the Father gave it to the Son and the Son will be giving it back to the Father.  The act of giving doesn't require that the person who had it first lose it when giving it to someone else.  We might think so as we think of what some people do when they give some things to some people sometimes but it does't really require that the giver lose any of it.  The Father will continue to have the Son and all that the Son has because the Father will always have the Son and the Son will always belong to the Father, regardless of anything the Son ever has.  There is no other option for a Father who already has everything and will continue to have everything regardless of whatever any Son or Daughter of his has or will ever have.

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18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay I'll comment on what you said then as I attempt to try to understand what you said a little better:

You said: I think the earth is Christ’s and will be presented and given to the Father. Thus making, at least, this planet His. He may share it or use it for other things, but it was created by the power that He gave the Son and it was given to Him, thus it is His to do with what He will.

Now I would like you to tell me whose planet this planet will be when the Son presents it and gives it to the Father. I believe it will still belong to the Son because the Son will inherit or has already inherited everything the Father has.  So it will still belong to both of them, even though the Father gave it to the Son and the Son will be giving it back to the Father.  The act of giving doesn't require that the person who had it first lose it when giving it to someone else.  We might think so as we think of what some people do when they give some things to some people sometimes but it does't really require that the giver lose any of it.  The Father will continue to have the Son and all that the Son has because the Father will always have the Son and the Son will always belong to the Father, regardless of anything the Son ever has.  There is no other option for a Father who already has everything and will continue to have everything regardless of whatever any Son or Daughter of his has or will ever have.

In my mind, my belief, is that we will have possessions (and this may or may not include planets and other things like that) that are our own. I don’t honestly understand the full destiny of this planet or how it will “transfer” hands or who it will belong to in the end. However, just because my father in earth still lives, guides, and teaches me on this planet doesn’t mean he owns my house or anything that I (and my wife) have built or created. Thus I believe that we will all eventually become independent of each other in power, glory, and creation, though still related and joined by family bonds.

 

The plan for this earth may be what you say or it may eventually take a course different then we understand, I’m honestly not sure. I just believe, currently, that this planet will most likely be owned by the Father in the end and the Son will go on to form His own. It really doesn’t matter though since none of this saves us, but it is interesting to think about and discuss.

Edited by SettingDogStar

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8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

In my mind, my belief, is that we will have possessions (and this may or may not include planets and other things like that) that are our own. I don’t honestly understand the full destiny of this planet or how it will “transfer” hands or who it will belong to in the end. However, just because my father in earth still lives, guides, and teaches me on this planet doesn’t mean he owns my house or anything that I (and my wife) have built or created.

Maybe not in a legal sense, according to the laws of our lands here on this earth, but by my line of reasoning, since your father in earth has you, if you are his, then in a sense everything you have is his too.  You can say or think that isn't true but in my reasoning it doesn't make any difference whether you accept that as true or not.  If you are his, then everything you have is his too.

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Thus I believe that we will all eventually become independent of each other in power, glory, and creation, though still related and joined by family bonds.

It's more than just a family bond. Everything we have we got from somewhere and on this planet everything we have belongs to our Father in heaven, and later on those same things may be owned by your father on earth as well.  Right now we're all just borrowers, gypsies, vagabonds, temporarily here and using whatever we can find here, because it all belongs to our Father even if it now also belongs to the Son too.

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

The plan for this earth may be what you say or it may eventually take a course different then we understand, I’m honestly not sure. I just believe, currently, that this planet will most likely be owned by the Father in the end and the Son will go on to form His own. It really doesn’t matter though since none of this saves us, but it is interesting to think about and discuss.

Yes, it is interesting to think about, isn't it.

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This discussion has been interesting to me, all the ideas mentioned.  I have another question, I remember it stated somewhere, maybe in the Journals of Discourse or the Doctrine and Covenants by Joseph Smith that this earth would be made into the Celestial Kingdom, that it would (this is vague) be like a glass ball surface.  Does anyone know where that is stated? 

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18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Psalm 82:6 has 'elohim 'atem "you are gods" in synonymous parallel with bnei 'eliyon "Sons of the Most High."  However, it is helpful to go back to 82:1 "God ... in the Divine Council...in the midst of the gods," in order to see that a chief God is judging other gods in the Divine Assembly. 

Who are these gods in the Divine Council/Assembly?

Thanks,
Jim

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4 hours ago, Ahab said:

You don't seem to realize that everyone who is exalted will be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and have everything that he has

Romans 8:14,17 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Only those led by the Spirit of God are considered sons and daughters of God (thus joint-heirs).  If being a joint-heir
means exaltation, then those not exalted are not led by the Spirit of God (making them children of the devil).

Thanks,
Jim

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Just now, theplains said:

Romans 8:14,17 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Only those led by the Spirit of God are considered sons and daughters of God (thus joint-heirs).  If being a joint-heir
means exaltation, then those not exalted are not led by the Spirit of God (making them children of the devil).

Thanks,
Jim

This is a little more complex than it may first appear without understanding everything that is involved.  First of all, everyone on this planet can refer to the Father of Jesus Christ as our Father in heaven because he created all of our spirits before any of us came to this planet.  Going back through history we can think about Adam and Eve, who were children of our Father in heaven before they "fell".  When they fell, though, they became estranged from our Father and needed a Mediator to help them to be redeemed from the fall, with Jesus Christ as the Mediator they needed.  And when they accepted Jesus Christ as their Mediator, not only did Jesus become their Mediator but also their Lord and their Father by adoption, and through him they then had their relationship restored to our Father in heaven, the Father of Jesus.

But, yes, all who don't accept Jesus as their Mediator and Savior and adopted Father remain estranged from our Father in heaven and instead accept Lucifer as their Father, following him as their Father instead of our Father in heaven who created their spirits.

Just a summary and there are some more details but that is enough to explain how we all have more than one Father of our spirits, with all of us having been created first by our Father in heaven.

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

Who are these gods in the Divine Council/Assembly?

Thanks,
Jim

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com  

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

 Washing My Garment In His Blood

  In His Eternal Debt/Grace

  He Died To Make Man Holy

   Anakin7

Edited by Anakin7

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

Who are these gods in the Divine Council/Assembly?.................

They apparently constitute the Heavenly Host, but are the offspring of God the Father.  That is, they are of His genus and species, and are subject to Him.  Thus, they have free agency, can sin, and can be punished.  Hebrew ṣĕbāʼ haššāmayîm “host of heaven” (Jer 33:22, 2 Ki 17:16, 21:3, 22:19, 23:5, Isa 24:21, 45:12, Gen 2:1, Ps 33:6, Deut 4:19, 17:3; cf. Job 38:7, Luke 2:13-14, Acts 7:42, 2 Pt 2:4, Jude 1:6, Rev 12:4).

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Do you really think Paul thought about becoming joint heir with Christ as we see it? It is factually untrue that the ancients saw apotheosis the way we do. Getting beyond that, and to speak on one point I’m curious those who think along these lines is this:

 

To say this is all cyclical would mean new councils, and more than that, needing new Saviors, no? Which is incoherent because the plan of salvation is in place, and Jesus has already accomplished the atonement. For us and all of us. He did what we couldn’t.  And if ‘become’ Heavenly Father (who becomes ‘Grandfather’) is to say there need to be new Christs each time which is really outrageous and almost comically blasphemous. If we are joint heirs in Christ it really makes zero sense to suggest each generation looks the same in some sort of endless cycle of god-making.

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15 minutes ago, Articustate said:

Do you really think Paul thought about becoming joint heir with Christ as we see it? It is factually untrue that the ancients saw apotheosis the way we do. Getting beyond that, and to speak on one point I’m curious those who think along these lines is this:

 

To say this is all cyclical would mean new councils, and more than that, needing new Saviors, no? Which is incoherent because the plan of salvation is in place, and Jesus has already accomplished the atonement. For us and all of us. He did what we couldn’t.  And if ‘become’ Heavenly Father (who becomes ‘Grandfather’) is to say there need to be new Christs each time which is really outrageous and almost comically blasphemous. If we are joint heirs in Christ it really makes zero sense to suggest each generation looks the same in some sort of endless cycle of god-making.

I don't think its blasphemous. If we are to have children, spirit children, of some sort in heaven then someone needs to be a sacrifice whereby they might have actual have a chance. On top of that, you are wrong about the ancients not viewing apothesis the way we do. It's, of course, a debate, but there is a lot of evidence, writings, and teachings (not necessarily all from mainstream Christianity) that they viewed apothesis a very similar way to us. Many of the Gnostic groups (See Sophia and Valentinus), Hermetic Religions,  jewish sects (like Kaballah) and ancient Israel worship (Margaret Barker has done some work here) believed in that doctrine in a very similar way. 

Besides you also have to go off of our belief in new scripture and revelation from a mouth piece of God. Sticking to a single book or collection of texts will, of course, stop you from believing in other doctrines that may exist. Not to say that is an inherently bad practice (the scriptures vouched for by God should be held on to) but it can be dangerous if we don't allow God to build upon more of His words. 

Edit: Also, just using some logic, if Jesus inherits ALL the Father has and we are Joint-heirs in Christ..then we would also inherit ALL the Father has, thus making us essentially Fathers in Heaven. There's a lot to that, but even the bible points in that direction.

Edited by SettingDogStar

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24 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I don't think its blasphemous. If we are to have children, spirit children, of some sort in heaven then someone needs to be a sacrifice whereby they might have actual have a chance. On top of that, you are wrong about the ancients not viewing apothesis the way we do. It's, of course, a debate, but there is a lot of evidence, writings, and teachings (not necessarily all from mainstream Christianity) that they viewed apothesis a very similar way to us. Many of the Gnostic groups (See Sophia and Valentinus), Hermetic Religions,  jewish sects (like Kaballah) and ancient Israel worship (Margaret Barker has done some work here) believed in that doctrine in a very similar way. 

Besides you also have to go off of our belief in new scripture and revelation from a mouth piece of God. Sticking to a single book or collection of texts will, of course, stop you from believing in other doctrines that may exist. Not to say that is an inherently bad practice (the scriptures vouched for by God should be held on to) but it can be dangerous if we don't allow God to build upon more of His words. 

Edit: Also, just using some logic, if Jesus inherits ALL the Father has and we are Joint-heirs in Christ..then we would also inherit ALL the Father has, thus making us essentially Fathers in Heaven. There's a lot to that, but even the bible points in that direction.

So you think that, with Christ #84392 having saved you, you now get to procreate a new Only Begotten, who now says to you ‘send me’ so he can save your spirit children. Really?

I hope you know everything you are saying is speculation, right? And that there are plenty of people, thoughtful people (e.g. Blake Ostler), who fundamentally disagree?

And I can’t source it now but I recall reading even LDS apologists/scholars warning about parallelism and imposing our reading onto ancient texts where none could have even existed.

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27 minutes ago, Articustate said:

So you think that, with Christ #84392 having saved you, you now get to procreate a new Only Begotten, who now says to you ‘send me’ so he can save your spirit children. Really?

I hope you know everything you are saying is speculation, right? And that there are plenty of people, thoughtful people (e.g. Blake Ostler), who fundamentally disagree?

And I can’t source it now but I recall reading even LDS apologists/scholars warning about parallelism and imposing our reading onto ancient texts where none could have even existed.

Sure, like I said, it’s a debate. It wouldn’t be a debate if there wasn’t evidence and defenses on either side. My research has led me otherwise (and I have read Ostler plenty.) Hugh Nibley, Margaret Barker, and others are ALSO thoughtful people who taught and teach that there was a belief in Apothesis that is similar to us.

And yes I believe in your first paragraph. I don’t know EXACTLY how it all works out, or if it’s sometimes different. But I do believe my children will need a savior in order for them to come into possession of a forgiveness of sins and resurrection. It’s not so crude as you make it sound, I see it as elegant. It’s not a line of Christ’s, it’s beautiful and wonderful that there are those willing to sacrifice their will in order to save others, especially on a cosmic scale.

Edited by SettingDogStar

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1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

Sure, like I said, it’s a debate. It wouldn’t be a debate if there wasn’t evidence and defenses on either side. My research has led me otherwise (and I have read Ostler plenty.) Hugh Nibley, Margaret Barker, and others are ALSO thoughtful people who taught and teach that there was a belief in Apothesis that is similar to us.

And yes I believe in your first paragraph. I don’t know EXACTLY how it all works out, or if it’s sometimes different. But I do believe my children will need a savior in order for them to come into possession of a forgiveness of sins and resurrection. It’s not so crude as you make it sound, I see it as elegant. It’s not a line of Christ’s, it’s beautiful and wonderful that there are those willing to sacrifice their will in order to save others, especially on a cosmic scale.

So a being (you) that was bailed out by another, only for his offspring to be bailed out by yet another…it doesn’t seem like a being much worthy of worship. What makes you worthy of worship? And how is this sacrifice-child the express image of a Father, who knows nothing of sacrifice?

 

 

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(As opposed to the Head God, who has been God for all Eternity, and is the One True God). Though, in this scenario, that is YOU. (Sorry, can't seem to edit to add)

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1 hour ago, Articustate said:

So a being (you) that was bailed out by another, only for his offspring to be bailed out by yet another…it doesn’t seem like a being much worthy of worship. What makes you worthy of worship? And how is this sacrifice-child the express image of a Father, who knows nothing of sacrifice?

 

 

I actually ascribe to the concept that I to will eventually, if I desire to further my exaltation, have to make a sacrifice like Christ’s. Call it blasphemy or whatever, but I believe it’s progression. I don’t even know or understand it it all..but that’s what makes sense to me and I’m trusting in it until I can be taught otherwise.

So in this context I would know I’d sacrifice, I would have made the ultimate sacrifice and thus also possess the keys to death and hell. My son would then be able to become in the express image of His father because he would make a sacrifice like He did. Just as my Savior did before me. It’s complicated and I don’t have all the pieces, so I honestly couldn’t just sit down and try to explain it. I just feel and believe that those principles are true.

Edited by SettingDogStar
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17 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I actually ascribe to the concept that I to will eventually, if I desire to further my exaltation, have to make a sacrifice like Christ’s. Call it blasphemy or whatever, but I believe it’s progression. I don’t even know or understand it it all..but that’s what makes sense to me and I’m trusting in it until I can be taught otherwise.

So in this context I would know I’d sacrifice, I would have made the ultimate sacrifice and thus also possess the keys to death and hell. My son would then be able to become in the express image of His father because he would make a sacrifice like He did. Just as my Savior did before me. It’s complicated and I don’t have all the pieces, so I honestly couldn’t just sit down and try to explain it. I just feel and believe that those principles are true.

My father believed the same thing. Not sure I agree as I see little evidence and I have my own speculative ideas on the subject.  But I'm not against the idea either.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

My father believed the same thing. Not sure I agree as I see little evidence and I have my own speculative ideas on the subject.  But I'm not against the idea either.

Some people agree, some are adamantly against it. I’m not sure if it has much bearing on salvation on this earth, so long as we continue to put our whole souls to Father and Christ. I suppose if we can do that we will be prepared for anything that comes next!

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1 hour ago, Articustate said:

So a being (you) that was bailed out by another, only for his offspring to be bailed out by yet another…it doesn’t seem like a being much worthy of worship. What makes you worthy of worship? And how is this sacrifice-child the express image of a Father, who knows nothing of sacrifice?

I fundamentally disagree.  I find much more to worship in one who overcomes than in an always existing perfect being.

1 hour ago, Articustate said:

(As opposed to the Head God, who has been God for all Eternity, and is the One True God). Though, in this scenario, that is YOU. (Sorry, can't seem to edit to add)

Don't we shepherd our kids through elementary school, then through high school?  And they in turn send their kids, our grandkids through the same process?

Why is it so strange so see constant creation and progression?

And the head God was once a man like us too.  Eternities means more than one can exist.

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On 9/10/2019 at 8:04 PM, theplains said:

If conformity to the Bible is the issue as you said in Genesis 3:5 and 3:22, then one would have to say that Jesus and
Heavenly Father are "gods".

You seem to have totally missed the point.  The use of upper or lower case is simply a convention used to denote the authority one being has over another.  It's an issue of relative authority.  So no, the Bible would not need to say that Jesus and Heavenly Father are "gods", because they are eternally in authority over all others.   Even when the LORD God says, ""the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" in Gen 3:22, he is not saying that he (God) no longer has authority over the man, but that the man has acquired some of the attributes of God, in knowing good and evil.   But this would be true even when the man is exalted and sits with God in his throne (Rev 3:21), the man is still subject to God the Father.  God is eternally the "God of gods", he presides over all others.

 

On 9/10/2019 at 8:04 PM, theplains said:

This is not a far stretch considering that the 1997 Gospel Principles also referred to Heavenly
Father as a god  ("All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god.
He has said, Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39
).")

In the current edition, the church removed "a god".

Those who become "gods" are subject to the one "God", so of course those who become like him are "gods" relative to God.  So I don't understand your issue with the statement either before or after the change.

Do you believe God is the "God of gods", as the Bible says?  Or should it be "god of gods", or "God of Gods"?  You tell me.

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