Becoming Gods?

[Sanpitch]

Years ago on this board the subject of becoming Gods was discussed.  The church website with an answer and question  site at that time said No, the church does not teach that.  The Doctrine and Covenants does claim that it is an option for the worthy, and your own planets etc.  So which is it now.  I think D&C 132- 19 covers it.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Sanpitch
spelling

[The Nehor]

I can. No idea about anyone else.

[Jake Starkey]

I know LDS scriptures teach the principle, regardless of what the Church teaches at any particular moment.

As far as me as a god?  Heavens help my subjects!  Wait: that's Me!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Years ago on this board the subject of becoming Gods was discussed.  The church website with an answer and question  site at that time said No, the church does not teach that.  The Doctrine and Covenants does claim that it is an option for the worthy, and your own planets etc.  So which is it now.  I think D&C 132- 19 covers it.

Hmmm...  more verse 20. Pretty clear.

Nothing anywhere about planets I don't know where you get that.

So what's the question?

Who said we didn't teach that?

Ah, the old Pres Hinckley ambiguous interview.....

They might as well have asked him when he stopped beating his wife. He was fried either way he went so he took the Middle Road and just got scorched a little bit on both sides

Edited September 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I don't know how it could be more clear than this.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:29, 37

Doctrine and Covenants

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods

Edited September 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Error

Edited September 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

They are gods, lower case. Where that stands in the hierarchy between a regular resurrected being and God the Father I know not. 

[SettingDogStar]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Hmmm...  more verse 20. Pretty clear.

Nothing anywhere about planets I don't know where you get that.

So what's the question?

Who said we didn't teach that?

Ah, the old Pres Hinckley ambiguous interview.....

They might as well have asked him when he stopped beating his wife. He was fried either way he went so he took the Middle Road and just got scorched a little bit on both sides

To each his own (and i think I understand the reason for his choice of words) but to me it’s better to be burned telling the whole truth then to be caught telling a half-truth or lie. Not to say he did that, but he was more ambiguous then I think was needed. 

[Stargazer]

One need only read the NT to find that we will be joint heirs with Christ. What does this mean? Well, the heir to a baron will be a baron. A duke's heir is a duke. What is Christ heir to? 

Need one say more?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

To each his own (and i think I understand the reason for his choice of words) but to me it’s better to be burned telling the whole truth then to be caught telling a half-truth or lie. Not to say he did that, but he was more ambiguous then I think was needed. 

I tried to find the actual quotes but could not.

IIRC he actually told the truth if you take the statements the right way. Every word was threading a needle though.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

............

 

6 hours ago, strappinglad said:

They are gods, lower case. Where that stands in the hierarchy between a regular resurrected being and God the Father I know not. 

John 10:34-36 (citing Ps 82:6)
Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came— and the Scripture cannot be broken— then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:1,6
God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:...
I have said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High."

Joseph Smith said (King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844): 
 "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!....You have got to learn how to be a god yourself." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng ; available at josephsmithpapers.org .

Deification (apotheosis) has been a standard belief in Christianity for a couple of thousand years.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian) , and in Judaism before it.

W. L. Lipscomb, Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1990), 262, “formerly God was man like you.”

Apotheosis was a universal tenet of earliest Christianity according to Jesuits George H. Joyce, The Catholic Doctrine of Grace (London: Burns Oates and Washbourne, 1920), 36, and Henri Rondet, The Grace of Christ: A Brief History of the Theology of Grace, trans. W. Guzie (Westminster, MD: Newman, 1967), 80.

Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979), 251, the righteous promised eternal life, the ability to create new worlds, and to inherit 340 worlds in the World to Come -- Bet-haMidrash 3:32 (Midrash Alpha Beta diRabbi Aqiba).

4QMa (4Q491 War Scroll) frag 11 col I:13-14  “For I have taken my seat . . . in the heavens ... I shall be reckoned with gods and established in the holy congregation” (J. J. Collins, “A Throne in the Heavens: Apotheosis in Pre-Christian Judaism,” in Death, Ecstasy, and Other Worldly Journeys, eds. J. J. Collins & M. Fishbane [N.Y.: SUNY Press, 1995], 43-58).

[JLHPROF]

I know people dislike the juvenile expressions about "getting your own planet".  But I get so tired of the lower case g "gods" argument.  There is nothing in our theology to indicate that our exaltation will be any less glorious and authoritative than Heavenly Father's except that he has progressed further at his stage than we will have starting out.

So yes, we will progress to the point where we will be participating in creation of worlds, bringing to pass immortality and eternal life for new generations, and ruling and reigning over new kingdoms, dominions, and eventually worlds.  Always under the authority of our heads, Jesus Christ and his Father.  Just as Heavenly Father acted under the direction of His head.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

John 10:34-36 (citing Ps 82:6)
Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came— and the Scripture cannot be broken— then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:1,6
God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:...
I have said, “You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High."

Joseph Smith said (King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844): 
 "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!....You have got to learn how to be a god yourself." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng ; available at josephsmithpapers.org .

Deification (apotheosis) has been a standard belief in Christianity for a couple of thousand years.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian) , and in Judaism before it.

W. L. Lipscomb, Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1990), 262, “formerly God was man like you.”

Apotheosis was a universal tenet of earliest Christianity according to Jesuits George H. Joyce, The Catholic Doctrine of Grace (London: Burns Oates and Washbourne, 1920), 36, and Henri Rondet, The Grace of Christ: A Brief History of the Theology of Grace, trans. W. Guzie (Westminster, MD: Newman, 1967), 80.

Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts (Detroit: Wayne State Univ. Press, 1979), 251, the righteous promised eternal life, the ability to create new worlds, and to inherit 340 worlds in the World to Come -- Bet-haMidrash 3:32 (Midrash Alpha Beta diRabbi Aqiba).

4QMa (4Q491 War Scroll) frag 11 col I:13-14  “For I have taken my seat . . . in the heavens ... I shall be reckoned with gods and established in the holy congregation” (J. J. Collins, “A Throne in the Heavens: Apotheosis in Pre-Christian Judaism,” in Death, Ecstasy, and Other Worldly Journeys, eds. J. J. Collins & M. Fishbane [N.Y.: SUNY Press, 1995], 43-58).

Wonderful- I always love this when you pull stuff out of your library- it must contain a lifetime of treasures!

I haven't seen anyone else able to produce a virtual bibliography, as you do, in a short time with apparently little effort.  Amazing.

[mfbukowski]

... And then we have the exclamation "Ye gads!" which I have found no millenial has ever heard before except in "old movies"... (check google)

No, it was a really expression used by real people.  People who wrote movies did not just make it up.  Cheesh!  

 

[theplains]

15 hours ago, strappinglad said:

They are gods, lower case. Where that stands in the hierarchy between a regular resurrected being and God the Father I know not. 

Using Gods seemed to be perfectly fine for the LDS Church for many decades until they made a change
in the 2013 Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/approved-adjustments_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Alma 12:31—”becoming as Gods” to “becoming as gods” (lowercase gods)

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by theplains
grammar

[theplains]

Also found this:

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.69 - p.70:

THE STRAITNESS OF THE WAY. Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children of
God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that "few there be that find it."

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, theplains said:

Using Gods seemed to be perfectly fine for the LDS Church for many decades until they made a change
in the 2013 Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/approved-adjustments_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Alma 12:31—”becoming as Gods” to “becoming as gods” (lowercase gods)

 

Once again...why can't we stick to the truth. 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Wonderful- I always love this when you pull stuff out of your library- it must contain a lifetime of treasures!

I haven't seen anyone else able to produce a virtual bibliography, as you do, in a short time with apparently little effort.  Amazing.

It looks easy because I have been working on this stuff for decades.  A library indeed.

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Once again...why can't we stick to the truth. 

What did the original manuscript show?

How is it that we are "as gods" now? Or "as Gods" for that matter?

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Years ago on this board the subject of becoming Gods was discussed.  The church website with an answer and question  site at that time said No, the church does not teach that.  The Doctrine and Covenants does claim that it is an option for the worthy, and your own planets etc.  So which is it now.  I think D&C 132- 19 covers it.

Please provide the link to the Church website. Thank you.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Once again...why can't we stick to the truth. 

Because people whine and complain that they don't like the truth.

And we wouldn't want to offend anyone would we?

[Sanpitch]

I think the church website with the question answers has been taken down, I can't find it now.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

I think the church website with the question answers has been taken down, I can't find it now.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

Quote

12. Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Latter-day Saints believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

It is correct, imo, but incomplete.  I think it should have been more explicit that we believe part of being like Heavenly Father is sharing in the creation process.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Calm

[cinepro]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

 This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Latter-day Saints believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

I love the words "misunderstanding" and "speculative." 

 

What if instead of using the word "get", we say "preside"?  That's much more elegant.  And what if instead of "planets" we say "worlds and kingdoms"?  That just seems more celestial.

If we accept those synonyms, then we get this:

 

Quote

When the Father offers us everlasting life, He is saying in essence, ‘If you choose to follow My Son—if your desire is really to become more like Him—then in time you may live as We live, and preside over worlds and kingdoms as We do.’” 

2018 Christmas Devotional

(Emphasis added)

So is this just a speculative misunderstanding on President Nelson's part?

Edited September 8, 2019 by cinepro

[Sanpitch]

The own Planet teaching may have not been in the scriptures but it was hinted at enough to give member the idea of their own planet.  My faithful LDS family certainly believed in the leading brothren:

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.