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What is a secular nation?


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50 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Evolutionary science is always in movement and a state of discovery. More questions ARE being asked. More answers are being discovered.

Of course there are.  We do have scientist that are genuine and do seek real answers.  Unfortunately some are politically motivated, some have been corrupted by funding sources (including government), some have malicious intentions.  What you really should be concerned with is the "narrative" that forces some people to fear loss of their position and to veil their real thoughts.  This is happening in all three areas that I mentioned in my previous post.

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21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Gender identity is not a science at all. It is psychology that has genetic and environmental factors. It is also largely stupid.

So you do not believe psychology (psychiatry and whatever) is a branch of science?  Will you admit that some areas of science are being abused and the "narrative" being imposed?

Edited by longview
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14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sounds like you are describing the dominant wing of the Democratic Party and the social justice warrior movement. 

Or the rabid pro-Trump wing of the Republican party. Read some comments on a Fox News article and see how much they hate Democrats.

I think the point was that both sides are becoming intolerant leaving less and less space in the middle for compromise. It's terribly sad.

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2 minutes ago, longview said:

When he won the presidency, investors suddenly sent the stock market skyrocketing.  They had been holding back funds because they knew the statists (those that advocate socialist policies and ever expanding bureaucratic government) were not helpful in providing a free enterprise healthy climate.  They became bullish because they were confidant of Trump's intention to remove the crushing weight of many regulations (some that actually were conflicting and inconsistent).

Since the election, Trump has provided for a tremendous middle class tax cut (which JFK believed in).  Paradoxically, reduction in tax rates actually leads to greater revenue (something socialists don't care about since they are desirous of imposing more controls over the people).  He is reforming prescription pricing and "behind-the_scene-middlemen" that manipulate health insurance procedures (which deprive the consumer the ability to price shop).  He has reformed the VA that had been mistreating our veterans so horribly.  He is now replacing bad fencing and adding new high quality 30 foot walls.  This will greatly reduce the flow of dangerous drugs (including fentanyl), human trafficking (that involves sex abuse and slavery), enable greater sanity and improve the process of legal immigration.

Some of you may be aware of the destructive effects of NAFTA.  It resulted in offshoring of jobs and industries to other countries which devastated many of our middle-class and shuttering towns and communities throughout America.  It was intended to stealthfully provide "welfare" to 3rd world nations (including communist China). Now Trump is fighting against that by restoring fair tariff rates with various countries.  This policy has already resulted in many business increasing production and the return of industries.

Except the tax cut did not cause tax revenue to rise. That is just an article of faith amongst some people. While in some cases it can work that way it is not a fundamental economic law that it always must. If it were we could cut all tax rates to zero and the government would have more revenue.

His health care reforms have been largely unsuccessful. While prescription price increases have been curtailed in the last year this is due to public outcry and bipartisan anger at the drug companies. It is probably not sustainable. There have been previous outcries like this in recent history and the price usually spikes upwards once the heat dies down. The administration’s attempts to reform hospital pricing are good but I doubt they will have much effect. Forcing disclosures is going to mean huge spreadsheets of a la carte services and supply costs that it will be largely impossible for a consumer to use. Hospitals will fight tooth and nail and so will insurers to keep their rebate rates hidden. Open markets are not to their advantage. Congressional action is needed. Trump’s executive orders are unlikely to pass judicial muster nor should they.

I question the value of the VA Mission Act but think the VA budget increase is good. I just with it was not part of such a huge total budget increase. Democrats have never seen a spending bill they do not like and Republicans are only fiscal conservatives when they are not in power.

The fences and walls are both stupid and are both easily circumvented unless the border is militarized. Large scale drug smuggling is not usually “amateur hour” enough to be easily blocked by a wall. Neither is human trafficking. As to legal immigration being improved I have heard that refrain endlessly. I will believe it when I see it. If you want to curtail illegal immigration focus on the immigration courts that are so overbooked it takes an average of a year and a half to hear a case. Actually staffing the system with enough judges and resources to hear cases in a timely manner would solve the problem of the current camps that exist to hold those whose status has not been decided and the problem of people disappearing into the country while their case is pending. Make it quick and fair and you can remove and admit people much more quickly. Of course that is not as sexy as a phallic wall (or videos of crying kids being separated from their parents) so the obvious intelligent solution is ignored.

It is kind of dumb that Trump calls NAFTA horrible and his USMCA a great deal for us. It is NAFTA 2.0. There are changes but they are relatively minor. The idea that things are shifting because of the repeal of NAFTA is ridiculous considering NAFTA is still in force and the USMCA still has to make it through the US Congress and Canada’s parliament. As to trade generally watching the trade war between Trump and China is a fine dose of black comedy. Trump may have been a good closer back in the old days but he is a terrible negotiator. His statement that trade wars are easy to win is proving to be of questionable veracity. 

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32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Climate change is not a hoax despite the swamp fever dreams of those who try to oppose it. - - - If you truly believe it is a hoax start buying up beachfront property. Prices are falling and you will make a killing when the whole thing is a hoax. Odd how the powerful forces behind the idea that it is a hoax aren’t jumping on these deal....almost as if they do not believe their own propaganda.

What do you think of Obama's plan to buy beachfront luxury mansion ($15 M) in Massachusetts?  He strongly believes in AGW.  AOC believes there will be a huge catastrophe in 11 years.

https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/22/barack-michelle-obama-buying-mega-mansion-marthas-vinyard/

29d731666b674f6a956eeb28531ec8b7_md.jpg

"The estate -- incredible. It's 29 beachfront acres. The main residence is just shy of 6,900 square feet. It has 7 bedrooms, so Sasha and Malia have a place to crash, along with several of their friends. It has the obligatory pool, an outdoor fireplace, a chef's kitchen, vaulted ceilings and 2 guest wings. It has incredible views, especially while soaking in the second-floor balcony Jacuzzi.
The beachfront is private ... and comes with a boathouse."

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44 minutes ago, longview said:

Since the election, Trump has provided for a tremendous middle class tax cut (which JFK believed in).  Paradoxically, reduction in tax rates actually leads to greater revenue (something socialists don't care about since they are desirous of imposing more controls over the people).  

According to the Laffer Curve theory, revenue is maximized at a tax rate that isn't too high or too low. The idea that without qualification "reduction in tax rates actually leads to greater revenue" is silly.

So, did Trump's tax cuts lead to greater revenue? No. 

Quote

Almost every major analysis of the legislation correctly predicted that revenues would fall in 2018 relative to a scenario without the tax cuts, with sources ranging from government entities such as the Congressional Budget Office and the Joint Committee on Taxation, to non-governmental think tanks such as the Tax Policy Center and the Tax Foundation, academic researchers in studies by Robert Barro and Jason Furman, and in analyses using the Penn-Wharton Budget Model.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

Edited by Analytics
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11 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Is that an admirable quality? To give as good as you get?

It certainly was NOT a good quality for spineless Republicans and devious Rinos to cater to the "narrative" of the dominant media and the shouters on the left.  It is a huge relief to see some healthy push back against the rantings of Bolsheviks and Antifa-types.

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On 9/8/2019 at 1:53 AM, sunstoned said:

What you said about Obama is a lie.

Well, not really a lie but an untrue statement.   Obama was a much more religious man that, say, Reagan.

Roberts was a lawyer for a homosexual organization.  That doesn't mean he espouses its views. I have represented many organizations with views that deviate from Mormon Christianity.  Many many. 

At one time I took up the defense of a pornographer when my law partner representing it fell ill and then died; somebody had to take on this client.

That doesn't make me one of them.  

Edited by Bob Crockett
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18 minutes ago, longview said:

So you do not believe psychology (psychiatry and whatever) is a branch of science?  Will you admit that some areas of science are being abused and the "narrative" being imposed?

I do believe psychology and psychiatry are science. Psychiatry is why I can function much better now due to my brain meds so I will not disparage it.

I meant psychology in a different sense in that gender identity is a psychological state and not that gender identity is an objective scientific reality. It exists in the same way UFO conspiracies do.

There have always been gender identity oddities in cultures throughout history but the need to label everyones gender identity and sexual preferences to six decimal points is probably a passing fad. I am comfortable with myself and I am just your average half dragon half vampire pansexual descended from anime characters and Egyptian deities with a thing for sheep, vore, and rubber underwear. Why can’t everyone be normal like me?

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5 minutes ago, longview said:

It certainly was NOT a good quality for spineless Republicans and devious Rinos to cater to the "narrative" of the dominant media and the shouters on the left.  It is a huge relief to see some healthy push back against the rantings of Bolsheviks and Antifa-types.

So, insulting someone who insults you is the correct moral path to take?

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11 minutes ago, longview said:

What do you think of Obama's plan to buy beachfront luxury mansion ($15 M) in Massachusetts?  He strongly believes in AGW.  AOC believes there will be a huge catastrophe in 11 years.

https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/22/barack-michelle-obama-buying-mega-mansion-marthas-vinyard/

29d731666b674f6a956eeb28531ec8b7_md.jpg

"The estate -- incredible. It's 29 beachfront acres. The main residence is just shy of 6,900 square feet. It has 7 bedrooms, so Sasha and Malia have a place to crash, along with several of their friends. It has the obligatory pool, an outdoor fireplace, a chef's kitchen, vaulted ceilings and 2 guest wings. It has incredible views, especially while soaking in the second-floor balcony Jacuzzi.
The beachfront is private ... and comes with a boathouse."

He has enough money to let it drown and move later so why not enjoy it? If he was buying beachfront property as an investment then yeah, I would doubt his belief in climate change. This is just a Fox News talking point.

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6 minutes ago, longview said:

It certainly was NOT a good quality for spineless Republicans and devious Rinos to cater to the "narrative" of the dominant media and the shouters on the left.  It is a huge relief to see some healthy push back against the rantings of Bolsheviks and Antifa-types.

You are basically as insane as this satire:

 

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1 hour ago, Analytics said:

paywall or other requirment...could not read the article.

If there is tax law that exclusively favors religion, then that would appear violate what Scott has presented.

If tax law is neutral, and in the neutrality religions benefit, then I would say secularism is not offended.

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4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, insulting someone who insults you is the correct moral path to take?

No.  No need for insults.  All citizens should be able to engage in dialogue and try to clarify ideas.  But when the extreme left and the social engineers are unable to refute conservative reasongings, they resort to vile demonizing and the politics of personal destruction.  I do not care what political persuasion you follow but it is utterly ridiculous for Trump to be called Hitler.  It is beyond the pale.  Yet the dominant media does it every day.  The moderates are being zoned out by all this.  They know it is BS.

Jesus did use sarcasm in countering the accusations of His critics.  He did it to bring better focus on the issues raised.  He was very exemplary in bringing better perspective, not only on His views but also describing the motivations of His opponents.

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15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He has enough money to let it drown and move later so why not enjoy it? If he was buying beachfront property as an investment then yeah, I would doubt his belief in climate change. This is just a Fox News talking point.

No.  It came from TMZ, a liberal site.  Obama was a leader of the "free world".  Don't you think he and his "allies" should show a better example?  Al Gore jetting around the world in his private jet?  Many of the AGW believers having a HUGE carbon footprints with their massive mansions and jet setting lifestyles?  Preaching but not living it?

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2 minutes ago, longview said:

No.  No need for insults.

Great! Then we both agree that Trump's insults are immoral, regardless of what is said about him. They are also, as The Nehor pointed out, juvenile. A witty retort at least has intelligence behind it... that's what makes satire so enjoyable.

And Trump is no where near the moral high ground that Jesus had when called out hypocrites, so I don't think we need to use Jesus as an example.

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2 minutes ago, longview said:

No.  It came from TMZ, a liberal site.  Obama was a leader of the "free world".  Don't you think he and his "allies" should show a better example?  Al Gore jetting around the world in his private jet?  Many of the AGW believers having a HUGE carbon footprints with their massive mansions and jet setting lifestyles?  Preaching but not living it?

I do not expect anything. No one has come up with a workable plan to deal with carbon emissions and even if they did there would be no political will to implement it. I do not see hypocrisy here. I see a failure to face reality in general.  I am not an Obama or Gore fan (your need to believe I am seems to come from a broken worldview of strict political dualism) nor do I feel the need to defend their lifestyle. I just objected to the idea that buying a nice house near a beach is proof that you do not believe in climate change. Are they doing enough to stop it? Hell no! Is anyone? No. If it does turn out to be real we will get to live in interesting times in the coming decades.

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6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Great! Then we both agree that Trump's insults are immoral, regardless of what is said about him. They are also, as The Nehor pointed out, juvenile. A witty retort at least has intelligence behind it... that's what makes satire so enjoyable.

And Trump is no where near the moral high ground that Jesus had when called out hypocrites, so I don't think we need to use Jesus as an example.

Please do not disparage the chosen one.

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6 minutes ago, longview said:

Another Ad Hominem attack.  When you cannot refute my points, you engage in vile assaults on my person (as well as others that do not share your perspective).

I did refute your points, the ones I think are wrong anyways. Then I pointed out you have a paranoid, conspiracy-ridden, and incorrect worldview. If you want to see it as an insult I understand why though really I feel more pity then contempt. What is it like to live in a world where every other person you interact with is a closet commie out to destroy your way of life? Sounds unpleasant.

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15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Great! Then we both agree that Trump's insults are immoral, regardless of what is said about him. They are also, as The Nehor pointed out, juvenile. A witty retort at least has intelligence behind it... that's what makes satire so enjoyable.

And Trump is no where near the moral high ground that Jesus had when called out hypocrites, so I don't think we need to use Jesus as an example.

No.  I don't agree with your attempts to paint Trump as being completely immoral.  He is not perfect but he is doing very important work to stop the steamroller effort to cast aside the Constitution and turn America into a 3rd world country as part of the global collective.

I consider Trump to be standing on spot 6 where 1 the depraved left and the dominant media is and 10 where Jesus is

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4 minutes ago, longview said:

No.  I don't agree with your attempts to paint Trump as being completely immoral.  He is not perfect but he is doing very important work to stop the steamroller effort to cast aside the Constitution and turn America into a 3rd world country as part of the global collective.

I consider Trump to be standing on spot 6 where 1 the depraved left and the dominant media is and 10 where Jesus is

He is not completely immoral. No one outside of perdition can pull that off.

He is just the walking embodiment of Babylon from the Book of Revelation. I am not saying he is the antichrist or anything important like that. Lots of people fit that description but if you feel you need to ally with Babylon to preserve Zion I would suggest you are doing it wrong.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.

Obsessed with appearance and ostentatious about his person and possessions? Check.

Full of abominable sin? Check.

Fornicator? Check, and you can throw in serial adultery for bonus points.

Wears his sins on forehead (openly) and is not ashamed of them? Check.

Edited by The Nehor
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