What is a secular nation?

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Trump gives as good as he gets. I know social justice warriors don’t like that. Neither do leftist Democrats or extremist talking heads and preening reporters on cable news shows. 

He doesn't give as good as he gets.  He responds to legitimate concerns and criticisms in the most base and vile ways.  What a lot of people don't like about Trump is that he is a bully.  He belittles people. He brags about sexually abusing women. He makes fun of the handicapped, and he repeated lies.

What should be very concerning to all Americans is that Russia spent considerable time and effort to help Trump get elected, and he is endorsed by the KKK.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/12/16138358/charlottesville-protests-david-duke-kkk

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/russia-wanted-trump-win-2016-mueller-testifies-challenging-barr

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-worst-offense-mocking-disabled-reporter-poll-finds-n627736

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Trump gives as good as he gets. I know social justice warriors don’t like that. Neither do leftist Democrats or extremist talking heads and preening reporters on cable news shows. 

He is the equivalent of a fourth grader in the wit of his insults. So yeah, roughly parity though I would give a slight edge to his opponents in the battle of wits. Also, if he gives as good as he gets I guess you acknowledge parity as well.

If we are going to go down the route of open political insults and no hold barred bashing I hope we eventually get someone in there with genuine wit at some point. Right now it is just sad. Like a Special Olympics version of  Jeopardy.

Edited September 9, 2019 by The Nehor

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In truth, religious freedom is the essence of the secular state. Which I have been at pains to point out by starting this thread. 

I grew up Mormon in the Bible Belt. Secular values securing religious freedom for all was very obviously necessary from my perspective. 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think so.  Science may describe evolution, but evolution, in itself, is not science.

Nor is it another "word for science". 

They are not synonyms. 

[Damien the Leper]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh!!

YOU MEAN THAT REALLY DIDNT HAPPEN?

Clue:  All art all literature, can be seen as "propaganda".   There is no such thing as "objectivity" if it is written or created by a human being.

 

 

The problem is that people believe it to be true but it's not. I've seen several other paintings and they are equally reprehensible. It is far more important to embrace the perspective upheld by the Fathers than to drown oneself in isolationistic and nationalistic blantant and deliberate lies. 

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

He doesn't give as good as he gets.  He responds to legitimate concerns and criticisms in the most base and vile ways.  What a lot of people don't like about Trump is that he is a bully.  He belittles people. He brags about sexually abusing women. He makes fun of the handicapped, and he repeated lies.

What should be very concerning to all Americans is that Russia spent considerable time and effort to help Trump get elected, and he is endorsed by the KKK.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/12/16138358/charlottesville-protests-david-duke-kkk

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/russia-wanted-trump-win-2016-mueller-testifies-challenging-barr

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-worst-offense-mocking-disabled-reporter-poll-finds-n627736

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/

 

Who would you like the KKK to endorse?

Write them a letter and tell them they should endorse AOC instead.  That would be a great idea.

Just so you understand how this works, organizations pick whom to endorse on their own- it does not mean that the candidate endorses the organization.

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He is the equivalent of a fourth grader in the wit of his insults. So yeah, roughly parity though I would give a slight edge to his opponents in the battle of wits. Also, if he gives as good as he gets I guess you acknowledge parity as well.

If we are going to go down the route of open political insults and no hold barred bashing I hope we eventually get someone in there with genuine wit at some point. Right now it is just sad. Like a Special Olympics version of  Jeopardy.

Give me a good economy over witty responses every time.

This is not about entertainment value, it is about making the country strong.  The man is a total jerk and clown but he does understand economics.  I wish he was socially mature but he isn't.

Witty responses do not put money in my pocket- I would prefer that, thank you very much!

This is a "lesser of two evils" world.

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

The problem is that people believe it to be true but it's not. I've seen several other paintings and they are equally reprehensible. It is far more important to embrace the perspective upheld by the Fathers than to drown oneself in isolationistic and nationalistic blantant and deliberate lies. 

Oh come on!  The founding fathers and other characters throughout history personally appearing with Jesus in front of a contemporary audience of overwrought people while Jesus hands a kid- what is that? the constitution?  People who think that really happened have a problem understanding reality.

And "reprehensible" paintings are not against the law.

[Damien the Leper]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Who would you like the KKK to endorse?

Write them a letter and tell them they should endorse AOC instead.  That would be a great idea.

Just so you understand how this works, organizations pick whom to endorse on their own- it does not mean that the candidate endorses the organization.

Give me a good economy over witty responses every time.

This is not about entertainment value, it is about making the country strong.  The man is a total jerk and clown but he does understand economics.  I wish he was socially mature but he isn't.

Witty responses do not put money in my pocket- I would prefer that, thank you very much!

This is a "lesser of two evils" world.

And yet evil is evil through and through. Neither the Democrats or Republicans seek to find a balanced and non-partisan plan and solution to heal this country. So long as the two party hoax continues to rampage across the scope of America we'll never see true prosperity.

[Damien the Leper]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh come on!  The founding fathers and other characters throughout history personally appearing with Jesus in front of a contemporary audience of overwrought people while Jesus hands a kid- what is that? the constitution?  People who think that really happened have a problem understanding reality.

And "reprehensible" paintings are not against the law.

I agree but there are a great deal of conservatives the likes of Sarah Palin, Mike Pence and Rick Santorum who believe that America is some special place placed in prominence or higher favor by God.

You're right. They aren't illegal but images such as McNaughton's paintings are tantamount to the pornographic magazines found on the strip of Las Vegas or quite possibly worse.

[Jake Starkey]

McNaughton's art approaches political pornography.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Who would you like the KKK to endorse?

Write them a letter and tell them they should endorse AOC instead.  That would be a great idea.

Just so you understand how this works, organizations pick whom to endorse on their own- it does not mean that the candidate endorses the organization.

Give me a good economy over witty responses every time.

This is not about entertainment value, it is about making the country strong.  The man is a total jerk and clown but he does understand economics.  I wish he was socially mature but he isn't.

Witty responses do not put money in my pocket- I would prefer that, thank you very much!

This is a "lesser of two evils" world.

Just curious what you think Trump has done that has expanded the economy?

i don’t plan to respond, but since you seem to think a great deal of Trumps economic policies, I am curious what you are referring to

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Reasoning is something that can be put on paper and explained, or posted on s message board. Intuition and revelation are experiences one may personally have, but they are not transferable at will like reasoning can be. That is why it is powerful that, if you can articulate intuition or revelation through reasoning, maybe you have a more powerful message. Or if you are without intuition or revelation on a matter, reasoning can be used in a collaborative effort, one that others can allow access, to progress in finding answers.

Yes, there are reasons one might favor one approach to epistemology and messaging over another, but it is still a subjective individual preference, and a secular state would balance the interests and conclusions of all involved, no matter their approach. A secular state (using the USA as the model) is a product of people and culture who have adopted all kinds of approaches. Most self-identified secularists are not completely rational, and most self-identified religionists are not completely non-rational. especially once they get into the business of sharing knowledge and preferences for the sake of influence in the public square . Either can appear quite irrational and biased for power. Personally, I've observed the better advantage in leveraging a number of approaches which requires uniting the talents and interests of the many people who use them. Often "rational" is just rhetoric, and using "irrational" for "non-rational" is just polemic. Pity the erosion of the secular state when the spirit of contention and pride (which are irrational) crowd the stage and fuel whatever has been gained by the integrated approaches. On the other hand, brotherhood/brotherly love and civic virtue, which are also irrational, sustain a well-functioning secular state.

Edited September 9, 2019 by CV75

[Meadowchik]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, there are reasons one might favor one approach to epistemology and messaging over another, but it is still a subjective individual preference, and a secular state would balance the interests and conclusions of all involved, no matter their approach. A secular state (using the USA as the model) is a product of people and culture who have adopted all kinds of approaches. Most self-identified secularists are not completely rational, and most self-identified religionists are not completely non-rational. especially once they get into the business of sharing knowledge and preferences for the sake of influence in the public square . Either can appear quite irrational and biased for power. Personally, I've observed the better advantage in leveraging a number of approaches which requires uniting the talents and interests of the many people who use them. Often "rational" is just rhetoric, and using "irrational" for "non-rational" is just polemic. Pity the erosion of the secular state when the spirit of contention and pride (which are irrational) crowd the stage and fuel whatever has been gained by the integrated approaches. On the other hand, brotherhood/brotherly love and civic virtue, which are also irrational, sustain a well-functioning secular state.

I do think there is a rational basis for civic virtue, and it may be just as old as history. The Golden Rule is quite rational, because the decision to treat others how you want to be treated can result in a world where more people do so, and thus you being treated better. It is a sustaining model for society.  And I agree that leveraging multiple approach is more advantageous. It makes us more adaptible, too.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I agree but there are a great deal of conservatives the likes of Sarah Palin, Mike Pence and Rick Santorum who believe that America is some special place placed in prominence or higher favor by God.

Well, ya know, that's because it was. It was a land of freedom... a great social experiment which threw off the chains of European monarchism. I pose it is because of the United States, that European countries have similarly pursued more democratic forms of government. They are copying our success. I also believe the United States was planned - it played a major part in fulfilling prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel. But, there has been a concerted effort for several decades to undermine true liberalism and conservatism, which is what I believe has made this country special - if one can claim that. If there was no United States, the world might be Nazi or Communist, or Ottoman... Maybe you think that is OK, but I prefer American freedom. And it is the home for a future New Jerusalem which God will protect. I am not preaching American exceptionalism ideology, but for all its faults, I kinda like the United States, which has birthed a lot of good in the world. Don't knock it til you think about it.

Quote

You're right. They aren't illegal but images such as McNaughton's paintings are tantamount to the pornographic magazines found on the strip of Las Vegas or quite possibly worse.

pffffff.... wa, waaaa, waaaaaaa..........😭

Edited September 9, 2019 by RevTestament

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Give me a good economy over witty responses every time.

This is not about entertainment value, it is about making the country strong.  The man is a total jerk and clown but he does understand economics.  I wish he was socially mature but he isn't.

Witty responses do not put money in my pocket- I would prefer that, thank you very much!

This is a "lesser of two evils" world.

I too would prefer a strong economy but since I do not expect to get it I will take wit over nothing.

He does not understand economics. He might understand the cloak and dagger New York real estate market a little but that does not make him an expert on macroeconomics or the nuances of international trade. He also has no grasp of diplomacy. If America’s trade deals are unfair (and in many cases they are) you go behind closed doors and have clever diplomats work out new deals. You do not declare war on Twitter with insults and whiny complaints and thus make sure your trade partner cannot agree with you without losing face. There is a reason diplomacy is not conducted out in the open. He is an idiot who cannot live without an audience.

i will be surprised if this trade war puts money in anyone’s pocket. Well, maybe in Vietnam, Southeast Asia, and South America where they are stepping in to fill the gaps we are creating in each other’s economies but doubtful it will happen here. At least the Midwest farmers who will be hit hard by this stupid altercation largely voted for the clown and deserve it. Elect a clown, get a circus.

As to lesser of two evils I did not vote for either of the major party candidates.

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Well, ya know, that's because it was. It was a land of freedom... a great social experiment which threw off the chains of European monarchism. I pose it is because of the United States, that European countries have similarly pursued more democratic forms of government. They are copying our success. I also believe the United States was planned - it played a major part in fulfilling prophesy concerning the restoration of Israel. But, there has been a concerted effort for several decades to undermine true liberalism and conservatism, which is what I believe has made this country special - if one can claim that. If there was no United States, the world might be Nazi or Communist, or Ottoman... Maybe you think that is OK, but I prefer American freedom. And it is the home for a future New Jerusalem which God will protect. I am not preaching American exceptionalism ideology, but for all its faults, I kinda like the United States, which has birthed a lot of good in the world. Don't knock it til you think about it.

pffffff.... wa, waaaa, waaaaaaa..........😭

And if we do not live up to those principles we will fall horribly. Neither party is trying to so casting this as good versus evil or God favoring us is to repeat the errors  of Israel and the Nephites. Being a chosen people in a promised land can (rarely) be a good thing but generally it just means when the hammer falls the destruction is much more comprehensive.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I do think there is a rational basis for civic virtue, and it may be just as old as history. The Golden Rule is quite rational, because the decision to treat others how you want to be treated can result in a world where more people do so, and thus you being treated better. It is a sustaining model for society.  And I agree that leveraging multiple approach is more advantageous. It makes us more adaptible, too.

Yes, civic virtue and the Golden Rule can be great tools for political engagement when in the right hands, no matter how one understands their origin.

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And if we do not live up to those principles we will fall horribly. Neither party is trying to so casting this as good versus evil or God favoring us is to repeat the errors  of Israel and the Nephites.

I didn't bring up anything about parties. I assume you are speaking about the Democratic and Republican parties. I am not. I am speaking of ideologies, which imhe (e for estimation) both parties have largely abandoned in favor of finding the money. And I am certainly not speaking of Israel as if it is some grand, righteous nation. It will suffer for its mistakes, but the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. It is what it is, and I can't change that. 

"Being a chosen people in a promised land can (rarely) be a good thing but generally it just means when the hammer falls the destruction is much more comprehensive."

A very valid point.

 

[longview]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

On 9/8/2019 at 10:03 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think so.  Science may describe evolution, but evolution, in itself, is not science.

Nope.  Evolution is a scientific fact.

Real science would explore many more questions about evolution.  BUT the science has been corrupted.  Not only in the "narrative" of evolution but also in the "narrative" of global warming hysteria as well as the "narrative" of gender identities (50 and counting), etc.  Foisted on us through the dominant media, public schools and college by conniving subversive social engineers dictating what is politically correct (i.e. what path will lead the gullible populace to that dream of a pure communist society).

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, longview said:

Real science would explore many more questions about evolution.  BUT the science has been corrupted.  Not only in the "narrative" of evolution but also in the "narrative" of global warming hysteria as well as the "narrative" of gender identities (50 and counting), etc.  Foisted on us through the dominant media, public schools and college by conniving subversive social engineers dictating what is politically correct (i.e. what path will lead the gullible populace to that dream of a pure communist society).

Evolutionary science is always in movement and a state of discovery. More questions ARE being asked. More answers are being discovered.

[Analytics]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In truth, religious freedom is the essence of the secular state. Which I have been at pains to point out by starting this thread. 

I agree with that, which is why the government shouldn't subsidize religion with tax subsidies, including both direct payments and economically equivalent tax deductions.

[provoman]

12 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I agree with that, which is why the government shouldn't subsidize religion with tax subsidies, including both direct payments and economically equivalent tax deductions.

Are there tax breaks/subsidies exclusive to religions?

[Analytics]

8 minutes ago, provoman said:

Are there tax breaks/subsidies exclusive to religions?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2015/09/14/americans-are-leaving-religion-why-are-we-still-subsidizing-it/

[longview]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Just curious what you think Trump has done that has expanded the economy?

i don’t plan to respond, but since you seem to think a great deal of Trumps economic policies, I am curious what you are referring to

When he won the presidency, investors suddenly sent the stock market skyrocketing.  They had been holding back funds because they knew the statists (those that advocate socialist policies and ever expanding bureaucratic government) were not helpful in providing a free enterprise healthy climate.  They became bullish because they were confidant of Trump's intention to remove the crushing weight of many regulations (some that actually were conflicting and inconsistent).

Since the election, Trump has provided for a tremendous middle class tax cut (which JFK believed in).  Paradoxically, reduction in tax rates actually leads to greater revenue (something socialists don't care about since they are desirous of imposing more controls over the people).  He is reforming prescription pricing and "behind-the_scene-middlemen" that manipulate health insurance procedures (which deprive the consumer the ability to price shop).  He has reformed the VA that had been mistreating our veterans so horribly.  He is now replacing bad fencing and adding new high quality 30 foot walls.  This will greatly reduce the flow of dangerous drugs (including fentanyl), human trafficking (that involves sex abuse and slavery), enable greater sanity and improve the process of legal immigration.

Some of you may be aware of the destructive effects of NAFTA.  It resulted in offshoring of jobs and industries to other countries which devastated many of our middle-class and shuttering towns and communities throughout America.  It was intended to stealthfully provide "welfare" to 3rd world nations (including communist China). Now Trump is fighting against that by restoring fair tariff rates with various countries.  This policy has already resulted in many business increasing production and the return of industries.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, longview said:

Real science would explore many more questions about evolution.  BUT the science has been corrupted.  Not only in the "narrative" of evolution but also in the "narrative" of global warming hysteria as well as the "narrative" of gender identities (50 and counting), etc.  Foisted on us through the dominant media, public schools and college by conniving subversive social engineers dictating what is politically correct (i.e. what path will lead the gullible populace to that dream of a pure communist society).

Gender identity is not a science at all. It is psychology that has genetic and environmental factors. It is also largely stupid.

Climate change is not a hoax despite the swamp fever dreams of those who try to oppose it. It is possible (but not likely) the whole thing will come to little or nothing but the idea that it is unjustified hysteria is a politically motivated hoax held by a minority of scientists and promulgated by those who do not believe it is entirely a hoax. Conservatives are right to fear it. If the worst or even bad case scenarios their modern brand of hyperindividualistic capitalism will probably die. If you truly believe it is a hoax start buying up beachfront property. Prices are falling and you will make a killing when the whole thing is a hoax. Odd how the powerful forces behind the idea that it is a hoax aren’t jumping on these deal....almost as if they do not believe their own propaganda.

Your theory that many Americans secretly crave pure communism is a paranoid persecution fantasy. The reason people are currently more disenchanted with capitalism is that there are more losers now compared to the past and people are facing more financial insecurity, fueled by the rapidly growing wealth gap. Fix that and everything will calm down. Of course we cannot even talk about wealth inequality without frothing zealots screaming about class warfare to try to shut it down. The irony is if the problem continues to exacerbate they might get to see real class warfare in action.