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Alabama to allow church to form their own police.

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18 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

A police force is an agent of the State with the power to employ force and violence to coerce compliance with lawful demands and orders.

No church should ever be so empowered.

No one should or would on my watch be allowed to harm the innocent, just to uphold some ideal that we should let them. The same laws that apply to the police, would apply to those charged with the protection of the helpless. Because of my many professions, my close friends know I am always armed, unless it is in places where the law prohibits it, and never in Church. Simply put, no one is going to harm someone else with a gun or a knife, as long as I still carry a badge and gun, although retired. I know when, where, and under what circumstances I can use it, “G-d forbid” that day ever come. My wife, or any grandchildren, and any who are with me know what to do, if something jumps off, and they know in which direction to flee, opposite of the direction I will be moving. 

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51 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

No one should or would on my watch be allowed to harm the innocent, just to uphold some ideal that we should let them. The same laws that apply to the police, would apply to those charged with the protection of the helpless. Because of my many professions, my close friends know I am always armed, unless it is in places where the law prohibits it, and never in Church. Simply put, no one is going to harm someone else with a gun or a knife, as long as I still carry a badge and gun, although retired. I know when, where, and under what circumstances I can use it, “G-d forbid” that day ever come. My wife, or any grandchildren, and any who are with me know what to do, if something jumps off, and they know in which direction to flee, opposite of the direction I will be moving. 

It would be someone like you i'd like in charge, you're one of the good guys.  Keep the bad guys out and the trigger happy idiots from doing something stupid.

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6 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Yes, Calm, I missed the question, and I apologize.

LEO is based on government inherently to employ violence  Within that sense, I suppose if you had a state-established church, you could have church police.  I would oppose that as hard as possible.

The idea of a religious entity having the authority to use violence to compel [whatever] horrifies me.

 

Is that feeling unique to religious organizations or do you feel the same way about private security firms or private universities or even corporate businesses such as the Disney amusement parks (trying to think of a business that has massive numbers of people and land) if laws were passed okaying them to create their own police force?

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Calm, I have a firmly divided line between the secular and the religious, the latter of which should have no power of physical violence or coercion, imo.

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5 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Calm, I have a firmly divided line between the secular and the religious, the latter of which should have no power of physical violence or coercion, imo.

Thank you.

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4 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Calm, I have a firmly divided line between the secular and the religious, the latter of which should have no power of physical violence or coercion, imo.

But corporations and academic institutions can be trusted with that power?

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Can they?  They are secular, yes.  Religious entities never can be charged with police powers.

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15 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Religious entities never can be charged with police powers.

Why not?  Why trust secular, but not religious?

Edited by Calm

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I have explained it elsewhere.  The answer will not change.  Whereas the state takes care of the body, religious takes care of the soul, and is to do as Jesus does.  No religious entity should have the government power of inflicting violence in order to coerce appropriate behavior.  BYU's police force showed great impropriety in linking student behaviors with the Honor Code and bishops.  Such unethical behavior boggles common reason and ethical behavior.

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24 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Jesus does. 

He cleared the temple...

I guess for me it is more about who I trust with that power and I don’t see religions as worse than nongovernmental secular organizations. 

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Well, Jesus is the Lord, and the rest of us are not, so that is one, an appeal to authority, and to, fallacy of false equivalency.

Religious entities should never have the power of violence to coerce its members even in criminal matters.  That's what a secular police force does.

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While we're at all this outrage, can we spare a little of it for University campuses that have their own police force?  Some of them have quite, shall we say, last-century mindsets about things like rape and the burden of proof of assault.  Bad juju when cops are hired by the entity that gets their money from revenues generated by the star quarterback.

We all like to think about BYU and it's honor code, but it's a national problem.  (Even moreso with some colleges, because BYU's football team only generates marriage proposals, not revenue) :)

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9 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Well, Jesus is the Lord, and the rest of us are not, so that is one, an appeal to authority, and to, fallacy of false equivalency.

Religious entities should never have the power of violence to coerce its members even in criminal matters.  That's what a secular police force does.

No trying to argue, but just curious about your reasoning and threw that out there to see how you draw lines....so no logic fallacy. :)

I see as great, if not greater issue trusting profit making entities with access to that level of force. Too easily corrupted. Government is bad enough, but don’t see a better option. 

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2 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

BYU's football team only generates marriage proposals, not revenue)

Not revenue?

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Not much revenue, for sure.

The only conference that BYU can get invited to is General Conference.

I have explained to you, Calm, several times why religions do not get their own police forces, so I will leave that with you to cogitate over.

I am so looking to the BYU vs USU game in November.

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14 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

have explained to you, Calm, several times why religions do not get their own police forces, so I will leave that with you to cogitate over

I believe I understand your explanation. I was only expressing my own opinion as I consider that the only exchange I can give for your time. 

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6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

We all like to think about BYU and it's honor code, but it's a national problem.  (Even moreso with some colleges, because BYU's football team only generates marriage proposals, not revenue) :)

 

Ah, No.

 

Quote

 

THE MONEY

BYU generates around $67 million a year in revenue. Considering it gets tens of millions less than Big Ten and SEC teams in TV revenue, that’s not too bad. It’s very good, in fact. It puts BYU at about 55thin total revenue, compared to the bottom half of Pac-12 schools and higher than any G5 school.

BYU actually produces as much or more revenue than a good portion of P5 schools in all categories outside of TV revenue. BYU is still on a 2010 contract which was negotiated before the huge inflation in TV value for college sports. Though not publicly known, BYU’s 2010 independent TV contract with ESPN is estimated to be somewhere between $6-10 million annually, which is on par with what ACC teams got around the same time.

 

 

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On 9/7/2019 at 4:42 AM, Jake Starkey said:

No, sir, your comments do not reveal a law of nature. 

What's this "sir" thing about anyway?

On 9/7/2019 at 4:42 AM, Jake Starkey said:

What is natural law is that secular government receives its power to enforce its mandate through the exclusive use of power to coerce people to live in harmony.

That sentence does not parse to anything with meaning, sorry.  Not sure what you mean, in other words.  It actually sounds quite circular.

I am saying that government, any government, receives its power from the consent of the governed.  That includes theocracies.

On 9/7/2019 at 4:42 AM, Jake Starkey said:

  It does not have a mandate to share it with a religious entity.

Who said it did?

On 9/7/2019 at 4:42 AM, Jake Starkey said:

BY did set up a theocratic government from 1847 to territorial organization, using JSJr.'s Council of Fifty to implement civil law.  Two good books exist.  Read them.

Thanks for the suggestion. Was this intended to contradict anything I wrote?

And by the way, if you want someone to know that you've responded to them, you need to use the Quote function. Otherwise they won't get a notice that you've responded.

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24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That sentence does not parse to anything with meaning, sorry.  Not sure what you mean, in other words.  It actually sounds quite circular.

My interpretation is government has its ability to enforce because it is the only one with that ability to enforce.  If I am correct, that is correct imo because without competing entities which might choose what to enforce differently and therefore block other enforcement, enforcement is possible.  But I may just be reading my logic into his words (as this is one reason why I think enforcement should be limited to government only....there is even confusion and competition between sections with that).

Edited by Calm

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On 9/5/2019 at 11:39 PM, longview said:

Why is this a problem?  The church has an extensive campus almost like a college.  How is this different from BYU police?

Good question. The BYU Police department was set to be decertified this September 1st, but it appears that an appeal has delayed the date. If I understand correctly, it appears the decertification is a consequence of the church/BYU/BYUPD refusing to comply with a public information GRAMA request. There have also been issues and investigations into whether BYU police used privilieged information to pass on to the Honor Code Office's investigations into student conduct.

So, there are legitimate concerns about how a religious institution complies with public laws when its enforcement records should be subject to public scrutiny, but it doesn't allow it, and when its access to non-public law enforcement information is used to enforce religious rules.

Edited by Meadowchik

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4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Good question. The BYU Police department was set to be decertified this September 1st, but it appears that an appeal has delayed the date. If I understand correctly, it appears the decertification is a consequence of the church/BYU/BYUPD refusing to comply with a public information GRAMA request. There have also been issues and investigations into whether BYU police used privilieged information to pass on to the Honor Code Office's investigations into student conduct.

So, there are legitimate concerns about how a religious institution complies with public laws when its enforcement records should be subject to public scrutiny, but it doesn't allow it, and when its access to non-public law enforcement information is used to enforce religious rules.

It is good and wonderful that there is concern and diligence about maintaining due process and confidentiality for all sides.  Unlike the screaming hysteria stoked by politically correct crowd that wanted to demonize Judge Kavanaugh for having "violated" Christine Blasey Ford.  The automatic assumption was that the "evil white male" is guilty until proven innocent and that the "female victim" is to be treated with utmost sensitivity and compassion with careful consideration of every feelings of her heart.

OTOH the massive USC (United States Code) plus various Executive Orders contain many conflicting and inconsistent laws and directives.  Activist bureaucrats can pick and choose which sections to cite for the purpose of prosecuting the "politically incorrect enemy".  If he can't get you with the left hand, he will get you with the right hand.  Individuals have been bankrupted by Federal prosecutors unfairly with its bottomless funding.  "Gotcha questions" can be ruinous if the person misremembers minor details.  The government shamelessly charge perjury on the poor sap.

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On 9/8/2019 at 7:33 AM, Jake Starkey said:

I have explained it elsewhere.  The answer will not change.  Whereas the state takes care of the body, religious takes care of the soul, and is to do as Jesus does.  No religious entity should have the government power of inflicting violence in order to coerce appropriate behavior.  BYU's police force showed great impropriety in linking student behaviors with the Honor Code and bishops.  Such unethical behavior boggles common reason and ethical behavior.

I get your logic of wanting to restrict law enforcement to government agencies.  But why then are you not opposed to secular universities and corporations having their own police force?  Are they incapable of unethical behavior?

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They are not religious entities, so it is not a cross of religion and state.

Personally, I don't think any private police forces or private prisons should exist.

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