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marineland

Christ at the premortal council

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23 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

In every physical particular though, he was mortal.

The scriptures make it clear that He was also subject to temptation.

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14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

His discipline and resolve to never sin and only do his father's will

In principle we could all be that way. He did not have some special nature that made him not be able to sin. Satan would not have tempted him had he not been able to sin

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16 hours ago, marineland said:

So at the council all the spirit children were already Gods?

I would rather say God rather than Gods.  The term "God" can be and often is used to refer to a particular kind of being,  which is the kind of being our Father in heaven is, and yes we were the same kind of being as our Father in heaven as children of our Father in heaven.

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11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:
12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

In every physical particular though, he was mortal.

The scriptures make it clear that He was also subject to temptation.

It is true that Jesus had many mortal attributes but He probably could not be killed.  He had to "yield" His Spirit into the Father's hands in order to make His earthly body die.

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On 9/2/2019 at 9:05 AM, marineland said:

What do you think you knew about Jehovah that would have led you to sustain 
His call and appointment as our Savior and Redeemer?

Do you think the spirits knew Jesus was a God or did this council occur at
a time when Jesus had not yet become a God?

I imagine we followed the promptings of the Spirit and had to walk by faith (not faith the Jesus and God live and love us) but that They could complete the plan without so much as even one mistake, sin, etc.

I thought Jesus progressed to godhood after the Atonement was completed. Not sure. 

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17 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

Although we're not sure what method our Father used to impregnate Mary with his actual seed (think DNA transmitter or something like that), we do know Jesus was the only child our Father in heaven begat through a mother in mortal flesh.  All of the rest of us came through Adam and Eve either directly or through their children (Adam and Eve's children), and Adam and Eve were not born through a mother in mortal flesh, or a father in mortal flesh, either.  They were both immortal, would not have ever died, if they had not transgressed our Father's commandment.

So that's one way Jesus was different from all of the rest of us, and because of that difference Jesus is referred to as the only begotten son of our Father (in mortal flesh), even though all of us were begotten children of God (in our spirits).

Another key difference is that Jesus was the first born spirit child of our Father in heaven, which tells us that we were not all born in heaven at the same time. Jesus was first and the rest of us came later. And that is one of the reasons he is referred to as the Alpha, meaning the first child to come from our Father in heaven.  And he will be the Omega (last) in the sense that he will be the last to come to this Earth, after all of our Father's other spirit children have been born here in mortal flesh on this planet, when the last millenium of our Father's work will commence.

One other key difference I can think of is that Jesus was the most intelligent child of our Father in heaven, which means that not only did he have more intelligent ideas than all of the rest of us but he also lived the best way he could live with the amount of intelligence that he had.  Which means he wasn't as prone to doing stupid things as much as some of the others of us.  Sin is all about stupidity, because no intelligent person would sin if he knew and understood what problems arise from committing any sin he might commit if he was not intelligent enough to simply not do it. 

There may be some other difference between him and us, and there probably are, that I just can't think of right now.  

Edited by Ahab

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On 9/5/2019 at 9:09 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

Another major difference between we mortal men and ‘the man Jesus Christ’ is that, unlike us, he possessed the fullness of the Spirit, power and glory of God,. For  by virtue of being the sinless only begotten Son of the Father in the flesh, he was endowed with the Spirit of truth and holiness without measure. In Doctrine and Covenants 93, John the Baptist testifies of these eternal verities:

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Edited by teddyaware
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On 9/5/2019 at 8:47 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

@marineland, did you read chapter 3 yet? I quoted some of it in an earlier post. It should answer your questions without wandering into personal speculations like some of those above. 

Thanks. I'll have a look.

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23 hours ago, Ahab said:

I would rather say God rather than Gods.  The term "God" can be and often is used to refer to a particular kind of being,  which is the kind of being our Father in heaven is, and yes we were the same kind of being as our Father in heaven as children of our Father in heaven.

So everyone in the pre-mortal life could say "I am God"?

In our mortal life, can we also presently say "I am God" because we are (as taught by some)
the same kind of being that our Father in heaven is?

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22 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I thought Jesus progressed to godhood after the Atonement was completed. Not sure. 

The manual I saw said it was intelligence which ranked him as a God before the Atonement.

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On 9/5/2019 at 6:09 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

I hope you realize that this part of the story hasn't been written yet. 

Literally.

It is not part of the story accepted by peer review to be called "scripture", but you can pray and find your own answer.

That's the way I see it.

So there are many possible answers.

At this point we might as well be talking about Star Wars and thinking that in that galaxy far away it really happened that way.

Edited by mfbukowski

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1 hour ago, marineland said:

So everyone in the pre-mortal life could say "I am God"?

In our mortal life, can we also presently say "I am God" because we are (as taught by some)
the same kind of being that our Father in heaven is?

No because you are clearly not there yet. But you can be when you grow up. That goes for all of us.

We are zygotes not the God of the universe. We have a little growing to do. Assuming we even make it which is doubtful.

Asking that question is like asking whether or not you can be president of theof the United States because you too are human

Except of course being God is a hundred million times more difficult.

Edited by mfbukowski

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:53 AM, mfbukowski said:

His discipline and resolve to never sin and only do his father's will

In principle we could all be that way. He did not have some special nature that made him not be able to sin. Satan would not have tempted him had he not been able to sin

I am not so sure. What are the odds that given a random sampling of souls without number the one that would never sin would be the Firstborn? I suspect Jehovah was somehow different. Then again I also suspect the Holy Ghost is somehow different.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am not so sure. What are the odds that given a random sampling of souls without number the one that would never sin would be the Firstborn? I suspect Jehovah was somehow different. Then again I also suspect the Holy Ghost is somehow different.

I don't think anything God does is due to a random sampling. 

"Firstborn" and "only begotten" refer to being "begotten" in the flesh.   He is the ONLY begotten in the flesh of the sons of God and therefore the "firstborn".

At least that is my version of the story and I am sticking to it

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6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

He is the ONLY begotten in the flesh of the sons of God and therefore the "firstborn".

The Only Begotten refers to the "natural" birthing process (albeit between normal human mother Mary and the Holy Ghost conveying nonsexually Heavenly Father's DNA to Mary).  No other human in all of earth's history can claim that but Jesus.  Adam and Eve were organized at the beginning (not birthed, despite what Brigham Young might have said).  Jesus (Jehovah) was the Firstborn of all spirit children in the Pre-Existence but NOT the only begotten among spirit children.

Edited by longview

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23 minutes ago, longview said:

The Only Begotten refers to the "natural" birthing process (albeit between normal human mother Mary and the Holy Ghost conveying nonsexually Heavenly Father's DNA to Mary).  No other human in all of earth's history can claim that but Jesus.  Adam and Eve were organized at the beginning (not birthed, despite what Brigham Young might have said).  Jesus (Jehovah) was the Firstborn of all spirit children in the Pre-Existence but NOT the only begotten among spirit children.

I didn't read that part of the story.  And it's too late for bedtime stories now.  Oh well.

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Having a discussion about God's DNA impregnating Mary to give birth to Jesus truly shows the VAST difference between the LDS conceptions of God and Jesus and that of mainstream Christianity. If you take a step back and look at this thread, you should be more sympathetic to those who claim you worship a different God and Jesus. You can of course disagree with that view, but it is tenable and doesn't have to be a knee-jerk anti-Mormon perspective.

It sounds like Greek mythology to me, Zeus and all ;) 

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In what way are Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother our "spiritual" parents? What does that mean? If it is because they created us? Is there some sort of literal spiritual birthing? (I only ask because it appears that you take it literally that God the Father is Jesus's literal physical father). If it is not literal, then why is a mother necessary for spiritual creation?

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5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

In what way are Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother our "spiritual" parents? What does that mean? If it is because they created us? Is there some sort of literal spiritual birthing? (I only ask because it appears that you take it literally that God the Father is Jesus's literal physical father). If it is not literal, then why is a mother necessary for spiritual creation?

This gets into speculation, but basically our spirits are in the form of our physical bodies and the belief is like our physical bodies, they were created by our Heavenly Parents.  How this is done is not known.  Seems unlikely to me it is an identical, though spiritual process to creation of our physical bodies, but we are told it involves a father and a mother.

Two things to remember here is first, spirit isn't immaterial in our doctrine, but more refined matter....whatever that means (I don't think we have a clue on that) and second, the issue of "intelligence".  There are two general speculative but semiofficial imo concepts about intelligence (which is our original, basic form) and that is "intelligence" is another word for "spirit" as it appears to have been used interchangeably by Joseph iirc at times and thus we existed first as spirit beings and second, that we existed first as beings of "intelligence" (which is who knows, perhaps even more refine matter or some form of energy) that were then given spirit bodies and now physical bodies (and pure speculation maybe the process continues with additional 'layers'/dimensions/who knows).  The tripartite version is more dominant these days, I think it might be even called official.

I will add a link or two of official material.

This and the following chapter deal with the stages of creation as we currently understand them:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/6-premortal-life?lang=eng

This pulls together the four major accounts of creation and identifies the main points now taught based on them:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/01/four-accounts-of-the-creation?lang=eng

add-on:  a third important concept is the belief all things are created spiritually before temporal creation.  This is usually thought of as a spiritual form identical to physical form (except for faults introduced by the fallen, mortal existence of creation)

Edited by Calm

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MN, Let me know if the above makes sense of if you need more detailed info that puts it together.  I prefer not to do that too much as it seems to increase the chance of incorrect personal interpretation creeping in to help it form a coherent whole when I believe the picture is still very incomplete.

Edited by Calm
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On 9/7/2019 at 9:25 AM, marineland said:

So everyone in the pre-mortal life could say "I am God"?

In our mortal life, can we also presently say "I am God" because we are (as taught by some)
the same kind of being that our Father in heaven is?

Yes, and yes.  We were not as perfect as our Father in heaven then, and we (we who are mortal) are still not as perfect and perfectly righteous as he is, but as far as the kind of being we are, yes, we were the same kind of being he was when we lived with him in heaven and we still are that same kind of being right now.  We're just going through a particular stage of development that all of us must go through to be able to become as perfect as our Father in heaven.

Even Lucifer and those who joined with him to rebel against our Father in heaven were the same kind of being as our Father, who was also their Father, but because of their rebellion against our Father and this stage of development they are not going to be going through with it, as we are, because we did accept the plan of our Father in heaven.

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On 9/8/2019 at 9:34 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Having a discussion about God's DNA impregnating Mary to give birth to Jesus truly shows the VAST difference between the LDS conceptions of God and Jesus and that of mainstream Christianity. If you take a step back and look at this thread, you should be more sympathetic to those who claim you worship a different God and Jesus.

I believe we do have sympathy for people who don't know as much about God as we do.  That doesn't mean we worship a different God or Jesus than other Christians do, though.  We just accept more information about God than other people do, other Christians included.

Knowing what we know about what it takes for a woman in a mortal body to give birth to a child through her womb, we understand that Mary could not have done it all by herself.  An egg of a woman needs something from a man before the egg in the woman can become impregnated, a necessary step before a child can to begin to develop within the woman's womb. Something from our Father in heaven, in this case, since the child was and is literally the son of our Father in heaven.  If not DNA, necessarily, then something like it that mingled with the egg within Mary that developed into the child we now know as Jesus Christ.

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19 hours ago, Calm said:

MN, Let me know if the above makes sense of if you need more detailed info that puts it together.  I prefer not to do that too much as it seems to increase the chance of incorrect personal interpretation creeping in to help it form a coherent whole when I believe the picture is still very incomplete.

Thanks for the sharing and info, especially since it came from official sources. Every religion has it's grey speculative areas and I'm intrigued exploring this one, both officially and seeing what individual posters here think about it.

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On 9/8/2019 at 9:34 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Having a discussion about God's DNA impregnating Mary to give birth to Jesus truly shows the VAST difference between the LDS conceptions of God and Jesus and that of mainstream Christianity. If you take a step back and look at this thread, you should be more sympathetic to those who claim you worship a different God and Jesus. You can of course disagree with that view, but it is tenable and doesn't have to be a knee-jerk anti-Mormon perspective.

It sounds like Greek mythology to me, Zeus and all ;) 

IMHO it is unfortunate that the Church bit so hard on this line of reasoning.... that I blame on BY who seemed to take a very physically literal view of Christ's begottenness... one with which I completely disagree. Indeed, it seems to me he contradicts not only the NT but the BoM as well which also says Yeshua was born of a virgin, and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. (But BY knew better than the BoM too???) Sorry, I am not going to follow any single man against scripture. If this puts me in line for excommunication, so be it. This early view was made even more concrete by Apostle Pratt in one of his books. The Church has never come out and said BY was erroneous in these particular views. In a very literal way he was right, but the ramifications of what got said sure made for a lot of fodder by Protestants in movies like the God Makers. The Church just has this thing about sticking to scriptural interpretations by presidents or "prophets." I have a brain, and I can interpret things too, and I feel I am authorized to pray about them for myself by Yeshua no less, thank you. If the Church wants to follow their interpretations, fine, but again, I feel they have departed from scripture. I tend to call these past teachings "mormonism" and I feel they have damaged the Church. And personally, I can see reasons for the knee-jerk reaction the Church used to get in the past. I believe Hinckley was trying to put these types of things in the rear view mirror in order to "mainstream" the Church as I call it, but perhaps was swinging back a little too hard. I noticed that the Snow couplet seemed to be disappearing from manuals, but now I am picking on a crowd favorite...

This is all not very flattering. It is kind of a hard sell to tell people I believe the Church is true, but yeah, it has made some boo boos. (Some big ones imho). But, why don't you come and examine our additional scriptures, and see how beautiful they are. How they add to the Bible in such meaningful ways. (But, just disregard what the Church has sometimes said about them). Our scriptures do not teach a different Jesus. They teach one and the same with additional promised insights. It is the same gospel Paul taught - a Jesus martyred, resurrected and made our Savior - one who fulfills scripture. That Protestants cannot deny, so they focus on the peripheral stuff, which I have to say, I can't really blame them for.  But, if one disregards it, and accepts the scripture, it is beautiful. It is one reason I joined the Church - I just had to live with a few warts, which since formed. I think you'll have to agree that Protestantism and even your chosen faith of Catholicism has them too.

On 9/8/2019 at 9:37 AM, MiserereNobis said:

In what way are Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother our "spiritual" parents? What does that mean? If it is because they created us? Is there some sort of literal spiritual birthing? (I only ask because it appears that you take it literally that God the Father is Jesus's literal physical father). If it is not literal, then why is a mother necessary for spiritual creation?

Well, this is not something that is really set in Church doctrine despite what some have said. I have taken what I feel is a scriptural view that spirits are not "birthed." They have always existed. God has just organized them, and offered them a chance to learn how to be more like Him. Most took that chance... So the anti videos about spiritual babies etc, have no true foundation in our scriptures. As I alluded above, it is something that arose as a consequence of some early teachings in the days of BY, even if they go a little further than what BY actually said. 

To answer your question more directly a mother is necessary for spiritual "creation" because she (the Church) is the vehicle by which God has chosen to publish His words to those who will listen. She is the nursery for "baby Christians." She teaches the commandments, tells us what works well, etc. She has pain in delivery... Well, I'd say both the early Church, and the restored Church meet this bill. If you are looking for some consensus LDS view... good luck. The Church has wisely stopped talking about this topic. :) 

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On 9/8/2019 at 9:37 AM, MiserereNobis said:

In what way are Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother our "spiritual" parents? What does that mean? If it is because they created us? Is there some sort of literal spiritual birthing? (I only ask because it appears that you take it literally that God the Father is Jesus's literal physical father). If it is not literal, then why is a mother necessary for spiritual creation?

In the same way that we, or at least some of us, will become spiritual parents after we are resurrected.  As a resurrected man and a resurrected woman who are sealed together as husband and wife reproduce themselves or parts of themselves into new spiritual creations. otherwise known as spiritual babies.  Thus their spiritual children will not be created from out of nothing or from out of nowhere, but from themselves wherever they are when they become spiritual parents to their spirit children.

And yes we do take it that God the Father is literally Jesus's literal physical father both in the spirit and in the flesh.  And a mother was as necessary as a father.

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