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marineland

Christ at the premortal council

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20 hours ago, Ahab said:

Our understanding of what it means to be exalted is to have a resurrected body and an eternal spouse.  So our understanding is that Jesus would not have been exalted until after he was resurrected and had been sealed to a wife.

What if He lived on a different world as I have posed, and was sealed to a wife there? Another possibility is that it is a spiritual thing rather than a temporal thing, and being "married" to a wife takes on the meaning of virgins coming to the wedding feast.... just sayin.

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not entirely. If you read chapter 3 in the Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher Manual, you will find the following 'dogmas':

  • 'Because it was certain that Jesus Christ would complete the Atonement, its effects were already in place in the premortal world. He is thus referred to as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”' (emphasis original).
  • Quotes from Neal A. Maxwell and Bruce R. McConkie demonstrate that Jehovah possessed 'unique attributes in the premortal world'. In fact, 'Students should understand that in the premortal world, Jehovah surpassed the composite capacities and achievements of all Heavenly Father’s children' (emphasis original).

These two points alone clarify much that some have attempted to muddy in the above discussion and are official Church doctrine.

Moreover, in a different General Conference address, Elder Maxwell also preached the following regarding the premortal Saviour (ellipsis original):

Nowhere in scripture or in the words of modern prophets is Jesus merely one amongst many of our Heavenly Father's children, nor is He ever just the first amongst equals. He is always unique in attributes, surpassing the sum total of all the rest of mankind, making Him indeed 'like unto God'. And His future atoning sacrifice was 'certain', thereby making Him fit for our faith and devotion then as now. In fact, the lesson cited above recommends instructors conclude by 'encouraging students to think about how knowing about the Savior’s premortal ministry and unique attributes can help them to have greater love for and faith in Him'.

I think you are probably referencing Robert, but just in case I will state that my comments were pretty clear that at least most do not accept my beliefs or proposal. I will be more clear. I know of no one who has stated what I propose is the case. I realize what "official doctrine" is, and tried to be clear that I am proposing something else, so I am not muddying the waters of doctrine. I am proposing a new idea: that the pre-existence included a mortal world in which Yeshua came to surpass the understanding of His peers(us), and was chosen to be the unique Son of the Father - thus beginning a spiritual priesthood covenantal relationship. 

Further, I should also state that I can't say that my belief is outside the accepted doctrine of the Church. Did not BY teach that Adam brought his wives from another world? Are we now saying that we got married in some premortal existence as mere spirits? Or that BY wasn't giving doctrine?

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with this.  Christ was not exempt from the same laws and commandments that everyone else has to follow.  He received the same exact ordinances everyone has to and followed the same steps to exaltation.

He just had additional laws specific to his role and received their corresponding blessings.

And if anyone wants to follow Him, they must do the same.

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord." Joseph Smith

Edited by RevTestament

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On 9/2/2019 at 4:28 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Yet God the Father hasn't always been divine, correct? He was once human and is now exalted. How could Jesus be eternally divine and God the Father not?

There is no distinction between being human and divine. It us like being both human and good or human and bad. One does not cancel out the other. We are not dualists.

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35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There is no distinction between being human and divine. It us like being both human and good or human and bad. One does not cancel out the other. We are not dualists.

Indeed. Being Holy means to be set apart. This applies to all the callings in the Church. I'll bet members don't think that way, but they are called to be holy.

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10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not entirely. If you read chapter 3 in the Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher Manual, you will find the following 'dogmas':

  • 'Because it was certain that Jesus Christ would complete the Atonement, its effects were already in place in the premortal world. He is thus referred to as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”' (emphasis original).
  • Quotes from Neal A. Maxwell and Bruce R. McConkie demonstrate that Jehovah possessed 'unique attributes in the premortal world'. In fact, 'Students should understand that in the premortal world, Jehovah surpassed the composite capacities and achievements of all Heavenly Father’s children' (emphasis original).

These two points alone clarify much that some have attempted to muddy in the above discussion and are official Church doctrine.

Moreover, in a different General Conference address, Elder Maxwell also preached the following regarding the premortal Saviour (ellipsis original):

Nowhere in scripture or in the words of modern prophets is Jesus merely one amongst many of our Heavenly Father's children, nor is He ever just the first amongst equals. He is always unique in attributes, surpassing the sum total of all the rest of mankind, making Him indeed 'like unto God'. And His future atoning sacrifice was 'certain', thereby making Him fit for our faith and devotion then as now. In fact, the lesson cited above recommends instructors conclude by 'encouraging students to think about how knowing about the Savior’s premortal ministry and unique attributes can help them to have greater love for and faith in Him'.

I think that we need to remember that to immortal beings, to whom time is irrelevant, they live in an "eternal present"- and so past present and future become irrelevant.  They see the outcome "before" the deed is done.  Of course many think this is then predestination but it is not.   I know know with certainty if I let go of my pen it will fall.  I have not caused it to fall however.  You put favorite cookies in front of a two year old, you can know with certainty that they will eat them.  But they still have agency to not do so.  Knowledge of an event does not imply that one causes the event

Time is only relevant to us because we have so little of it.  If one has all eternity, "today" becomes irrelevant.

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On 9/2/2019 at 4:28 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Yet God the Father hasn't always been divine, correct? He was once human and is now exalted. How could Jesus be eternally divine and God the Father not?

Time is irrelevant to them, but if one wants a quasi-scientific story also, one might believe that there are successive "eternities" dependent on contexts.   For a child, a trip to Disneyland could be an "eternity" and one might say that "Before" event X someone was a "different person" than one "after" event x.

Perhaps the event might be wonderful or traumatic.  A total life change makes one a "new person" and even Catholics give a "new name" at Confirmation to note that.  And yet that person is the "same" even after the life change.

And lastly, if one wants to believe in the big bang leading to a singularity, leading to another big bang, one might say that before bang A it was a different "eternity" than after bang B

And on other planets are eternities measured from the creation of that universe/ solar system?

And then there are riffs on "reincarnation".....  Is one the same person when one comes back?  

So are these philosophies of men or scripture- and how does one differentiate when scripture is a philosophy of men?  When the bible puts forth a geocentric model instead of a heliocentric model, is that a philosophy of man or scripture?   How about a six day creation or the proposition that the earth is 6k years old?  Philosophy or not?  Stoning for adultery?

It's all just man made words! Some are inspired, some not.  How do you tell the difference?  Ask God!

We are the only faith I know that even ATTEMPTS to look at these issues instead of seeing what the catechism says  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski

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11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It appears that there is disagreement on this among the LDS.

I suppose this is an area where there is no authoritative LDS dogma so each can believe one's own?

It might help if you would clarify what YOU mean by exalted.  It may not mean the same thing we mean when we refer to exaltation.

Jesus was already the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, just as we were from the moment we were born to parents in heavens. So that takes care of the idea of when and how he became "God".

So what else might you mean when you ask when he was or will be "exalted"?  If you're not referring to the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, how else might he, and we, become more like our Father in heaven?

Gaining more power/authority to act as our Father in heaven does, maybe?  It's reasonable to assume he didn't have all power in heaven and on earth at the moment he was fist born in heaven, and instead was given that gradually.  If that's what you're referring to as exaltation I would say he most likely gained all power to act with our Father's power when he began to intercede for our Father as our mediator before this world was created for us, so we could come here to gain bodies through Adam and Eve and learn more about good and evil.  But generally that isn't what we (LDS) refer to as exaltation.  We have power/authority to act as our Father in heaven does now, but no we don't have all of that power.  But  you wouldn't be wrong to think we can get it all later, and you could refer to that as exaltation if you want to.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Jesus was already the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, just as we were from the moment we were born to parents in heavens. So that takes care of the idea of when and how he became "God".

I  agree with you on this but I don't know why you constantly belabor this point at the expense of the topic.

Yes, we are all God in species.  No we are not all God in priesthood office.  When this topic is discussed it's usually the office being referred to, not the species.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I  agree with you on this but I don't know why you constantly belabor this point at the expense of the topic.

Yes, we are all God in species.  No we are not all God in priesthood office.  When this topic is discussed it's usually the office being referred to, not the species.

There is no mention of any priesthood office named or titled "God" but that hasn't stopped you from imagining one anyway, I see.

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On 9/2/2019 at 4:28 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Yet God the Father hasn't always been divine, correct? He was once human and is now exalted. How could Jesus be eternally divine and God the Father not?

 

On 9/2/2019 at 4:36 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think the same statement pertains: 'Mortal minds cannot conceive of such a time, and the scriptures themselves do not explicitly speak of such a time'.

According to the physics of the Big Bang, time didn't exist before the moment of the Big Bang.  So, God and Christ have been divine since before Time even existed.  And that's a long time!

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

There is no mention of any priesthood office named or titled "God" but that hasn't stopped you from imagining one anyway, I see.

The term Godhead appears several times in the Bible.  Would that satisfy you?  It should be clear that the Godhead contains offices and is patterned after the Priesthood requiring ordinances and covenants.  It is a very sacred trust to be taken seriously.  Remember that God the Father was not always God.  He went through mortal probation (He was not God then).  Yet the scriptures state there is always a God.  Therefore the gods are always subject to their progenitor Gods.  This implies Godhood is an office to be qualified for and to enter into.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

According to the physics of the Big Bang, time didn't exist before the moment of the Big Bang.  So, God and Christ have been divine since before Time even existed.  And that's a long time!

If Jesus was the Firstborn of all spirits, it must have been He was the most intelligent among intelligences for Him to be chosen.  I am inclined to agree with previous posters that the Godhead was formed at the time of the Great Council.  Thereafter the Plan of Salvation was initiated with the creation of worlds and the Eternal Round was begun.

Some of you may remember from threads in previous years I have postulated against the Big Bang.  It is possible that the red-shifting we see in photons may be due to gradual infinitesimal loss of energy decaying from photons over the course of 15 Billion years (or more) of travel through the universe (not because of the expanding universe).

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17 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It appears that there is disagreement on this among the LDS.

I suppose this is an area where there is no authoritative LDS dogma so each can believe one's own?

Why would you suppose there is no authoritative LDS dogma?  Why not instead suppose that different members have different levels of knowledge and understanding of what the authoritative LDS dogma is?

We can each believe whatever dogma we choose to believe, whether a member of our church or of your church or any other church.

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2 minutes ago, longview said:

The term Godhead appears several times in the Bible.  Would that satisfy you? 

That there is an office of the priesthood titled or named "God".  No, the term godhead or Godhead does not suffice as evidence to support that idea.  The Godhead is something like the First Presidency for 3 persons in heaven who preside over our Father's work, over not only the First Presidency in our Lord's church but also over everyone who has ever lived or will live on this planet.  There is no need to suppose those 3 persons have a priesthood office named or titled "God".  They are God but that isn't because of any priesthood office they hold.  Everyone on this planet, past present and future, is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, the kind of being we refer to as God.

2 minutes ago, longview said:

It should be clear that the Godhead contains offices and is patterned after the Priesthood requiring ordinances and covenants. 

It is clear that they hold an office in the priesthood but not that they have a priesthood office that is named or titled God.  The priesthood they hold is after the order of the Son of God, also referred to as the order of Melchizedek.  I suppose the priesthood office they hold is the office of high priest, since that is all they would need to do all of their work, and the apostle Paul seemed to think so too when he talked to the Hebrews about how we have a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, referring to Jesus Christ

2 minutes ago, longview said:

It is a very sacred trust to be taken seriously.  Remember that God the Father was not always God.  He went through mortal probation (He was not God then).  Yet the scriptures state there is always a God.  Therefore the gods are always subject to their progenitor Gods.  This implies Godhood is an office to be qualified for and to enter into.

Our Father was always God in the sense of him always being the same kind of being that he is now, even before he was born to his parents in heaven.  Parents always have the ability to produce any children they will produce later even if they aren't producing them yet.  Our Father wasn't always our Father, though, because there once was a time when we hadn't been born yet, even though he still had within him the ability to become our Father.

Anyway, there have always been misunderstandings and misinterpretations about what prophets of God have said and I suppose there will continue to be.  I'm simply stating there is nothing in scripture stating there is a priesthood office that is named or titled God. 

 

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On 9/2/2019 at 11:13 AM, RevTestament said:

See Genesis 3:22 "the man has become one of us

What does that mean?

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On 9/4/2019 at 2:00 AM, Glenn101 said:

I am one who believes that Jesus earned his status to become the Only Begotten

What does Only Begotten mean?

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On 9/4/2019 at 4:27 PM, Ahab said:

Jehovah was already God, just as we were, in the sense that all of us were already being the same kind of being as our Father in heaven

So at the council all the spirit children were already Gods?

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@marineland, did you read chapter 3 yet? I quoted some of it in an earlier post. It should answer your questions without wandering into personal speculations like some of those above. 

Edited by Hamba Tuhan

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I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

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35 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference?

Mainly. To that, you could add that, by virtue of being God, He had the ability to lay down His life and then take it up again, bringing to pass the Resurrection. As God, He also had the capacity to bear the sins and sorrows of all mankind -- something that no one of us could endure.

Quote

What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

Quoting the manual I cited from earlier: 'Students should understand that in the premortal world, Jehovah surpassed the composite capacities and achievements of all Heavenly Father’s children' (emphasis original).

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On 9/2/2019 at 5:29 PM, 2BizE said:

In the premortal council, we have been taught there were two plans presented.  1) Satans plan for everyone to be exactly obedient and 2) Christ’s plan to allow us to make mistakes and have a savior to save us.

President Nelson’s recent remarks confuse me.  

"Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles." 
- Russell M. Nelson

Isn't exact obedience Satans plan?

No, you are confusing personal choice to obey and not having a choice and being forced to obey. They have nothing in common.

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1 hour ago, marineland said:

What does Only Begotten mean?

My understanding is that it means that Jesus is the only one of God's spirit children that he also fathered physically, in whatever manner that Mary became pregnant, it was with the actual genetic seed from Heavenly Father.

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57 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

When Jesus was on the earth, he remained a member of the Godhead. He was perfection before he came to earth and he reflected this perfection throughout his life on earth. How wide the divide between the rest of us, God's children, and a member of the Godhead? It is the difference between a seed and an eternal oak tree - or better yet, it is not describable. Through Christ we might become like God, but it is only through Christ that this is possible; it is God's plan that we become one with him, but in common language - all the heavy lifting is done by the Godhead. 

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Anyway, there have always been misunderstandings and misinterpretations about what prophets of God have said and I suppose there will continue to be.  I'm simply stating there is nothing in scripture stating there is a priesthood office that is named or titled God. 

Maybe there is not an office titled "God" but my point is that being the presiding God (God the Father over this "Eternal Round") is a calling which must be given by the Council of the Gods.  This requires ordinances and covenants and authority and keys to be in that position (pattern of the Priesthood).  I have read some of Boyd K Packer's sermons and will cut and paste here.  The Priesthood is required to maintain order in the Eternities (The Kingdom of God in future Eternal Rounds).  I will use bold red to highlight a few of the important concepts:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1993/02/what-every-elder-should-know-and-every-sister-as-well-a-primer-on-principles-of-priesthood-government?lang=eng

“And by the prayer of your faith ye shall receive my law, that ye may know how to govern my church (and future kingdoms) and have all things right before me.” (D&C 41:2–3.)

"There are keys of the priesthood. While the word key has other meanings, like keys of wisdom or keys of knowledge, the keys of the priesthood are the right to preside and direct the affairs of the Church within a jurisdiction. All priesthood keys are within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and no keys exist outside the Church on earth."

"The ordained offices in the higher priesthood are:
Elder
High Priest
Patriarch
Seventy
Apostle"

The priesthood, which is always associated with God’s work, “continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years.” (D&C 84:17.)

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/boyd-k-packer/ordinances/

"The Oxford Dictionary gives as the first definition of the word ordinance, “Arrangement in ranks or rows,” and as the second definition, “Arrangement in sequence or proper relative position.” That may not strike you at the moment as having much religious significance, but indeed it has. The word ordinance also means “a religious or ceremonial observance, an established rite.”

Among the ordinances we perform in the Church are baptism, administering the sacrament, naming and blessing of infants, administering to the sick, setting apart to callings in the Church, and ordaining to offices in the priesthood. And then there are the higher ordinances, performed in the temples. These include the endowment and the sealing ordinance, spoken of generally as temple marriage.

The word ordinance comes from the word order, which means, again, “a rank, a row, a series.”

The word order appears very frequently in the scriptures. I’ll just give a few examples: “. . . established the order of the Church” (Alma 8:1). “. . . all things should be restored to their proper order” (Alma 41:2). Moroni even defined depravity as being “without order” (Moroni 9:18). “. . . all things may be done in order” (D&C 20:68). “Mine house is a house of order” (D&C 132:8).

We talk often in the Church about the order of the priesthood."

"This greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. [D&C 84:19–21]"

"Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion."

"I have heard President Kimball say (and it is something that other presidents of the Church have said) that while he holds all of the keys that are upon the earth, there are keys that he does not hold. There are keys that have not been given to him as president of the Church because they are reserved for higher power and authority.

For example, he said that he does not hold the keys of the resurrection. The Lord has them, but He does not delegate them—neither anciently, nor to modern prophets. He mentioned, also, the authority to command the elements and to walk on the water. The Lord has these keys, but He has not given them to us." (this implies that God must hold keys for administering the Plan of Salvation).

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3 hours ago, marineland said:

What does that mean?

That is a good question marineland - or to be more precise - the right question. I was quoting Gen 3:22 really for the proposition that Yehovah Elohim said "the man has become one of us." Elohim is in a plural form there with a plural verb - meaning it is being used fully plural. Sometimes it is used in a singular form in Hebrew. Rather than being a "royal we," as you may often hear, in truth it reflects that both Yeshua and El Elyon are speaking as Yehovah Elohim, which is why they say we. I believe there are a few other places in the OT which clearly show Yeshua is speaking as Yehovah as well. The Jews lost this knowledge upon their exile to Babylon, and became overly monotheistic prone. Anyway I was just trying to show that Yeshua was Yehovah from the beginning. It is not a name He inherited later. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God to quote John.  Both speak as Yehovah Elohim in the OT - they are both the word. 

As to the other part I quoted, that is the great secret. What was in the beginning will be taught again in the end. That Yehovah Elohim also knows of good and evil - the implication being that Yehovah Elohim went through this process as well - the same as us. Of course that is a blasphemous concept in modern Christianity, but it is what the scriptures say. Modern Christianity routinely ignores what the scriptures say, because it does not comport with their theology - another being that man and woman were made in the image of God. That really can have no other than the plain meaning that Yehovah is a man or very man like with some corporeal form. The Jews called Him the invisible God because He had no image in His temple. Thus, compared to pagan gods, He was invisible, but Moses saw His back parts. D&C simply comes out and reinforces these early concepts so there can be no doubt that Christianity at large has gotten it wrong.

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

When Jesus was on the earth, he remained a member of the Godhead. He was perfection before he came to earth and he reflected this perfection throughout his life on earth. How wide the divide between the rest of us, God's children, and a member of the Godhead? It is the difference between a seed and an eternal oak tree - or better yet, it is not describable.

Exactly! The word Elder Maxwell used in his General Conference address -- and Elder Maxwell was a man who cared about what words mean! -- was incomparable. If we take this back to its Latin origin and pull it apart, it means, literally, 'without peer'. I love how the Lord described Himself in the context of giving a glimpse into what He suffered for us: 'Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—' (emphasis added).

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3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between Jesus and us. It doesn't seem clear, especially since different LDS posters are giving different answers. So let me try these questions to see if I can flesh it out.

When Jesus was on Earth, how was he different from us on Earth right now? I know He was sinless -- is that the only difference? What allowed Him to be sinless when the rest of us cannot be?

I'll take a stab at it. He was born with eternal life - we are not. He was born as Yehovah - as far as we know, we are not. He may have been born with a spiritual memory of His preexistence - we are not. In every physical particular though, he was mortal. He could bleed, suffer, and die. The question then becomes - but why? 

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