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marineland

Christ at the premortal council

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I started reading the "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teachers Manual".

In Lesson 2, on page 7, it states

To further emphasize these truths, display and read aloud the following 
statement by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
"[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and 
willing in the premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the
infinite Atonement]" ("The Atonement of Jesus Christ," Ensign, Mar. 2008, 
35).  At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the 
Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we 
sanctioned it (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007],
209).

It then poses a question but leaves it up for discussion.

What do you think you knew about Jehovah that would have led you to sustain 
His call and appointment as our Savior and Redeemer?

Do you think the spirits knew Jesus was a God or did this council occur at
a time when Jesus had not yet become a God?

Thanks

Tony

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1 hour ago, marineland said:

I started reading the "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teachers Manual".

In Lesson 2, on page 7, it states

To further emphasize these truths, display and read aloud the following 
statement by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
"[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and 
willing in the premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the
infinite Atonement]" ("The Atonement of Jesus Christ," Ensign, Mar. 2008, 
35).  At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the 
Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we 
sanctioned it (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007],
209).

It then poses a question but leaves it up for discussion.

What do you think you knew about Jehovah that would have led you to sustain 
His call and appointment as our Savior and Redeemer?

Do you think the spirits knew Jesus was a God or did this council occur at
a time when Jesus had not yet become a God?

Thanks

Tony

In the context of the quote you provided from the Lesson, it isn't mentioned, so His divine status and when He obtained it is immaterial to the knowledge and the decisions the spirits made with respect to the council.

Aside from that, in some ways it could be said that He was God all along, and in some ways that He received of the Father's fulness grace for grace through His pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal existence, and in some was both.

But I think the spirits chose to follow Him (or Satan) because of resonating with what they said, not because of what they were.

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1 hour ago, marineland said:

I started reading the "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teachers Manual".

In Lesson 2, on page 7, it states

To further emphasize these truths, display and read aloud the following 
statement by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
"[Jesus Christ] was apparently the only one sufficiently humble and 
willing in the premortal council to be foreordained to [bring about the
infinite Atonement]" ("The Atonement of Jesus Christ," Ensign, Mar. 2008, 
35).  At the first organization in heaven we were all present and saw the 
Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we 
sanctioned it (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007],
209).

It then poses a question but leaves it up for discussion.

What do you think you knew about Jehovah that would have led you to sustain 
His call and appointment as our Savior and Redeemer?

Do you think the spirits knew Jesus was a God or did this council occur at
a time when Jesus had not yet become a God?

Thanks

Tony

This is by no means the current church-wide view, but I believe Yeshua was begotten as the unique Son before this world. That is He was already chosen by the Father for the task, and came into this world as the only begotten Son. We could not come to this world unless we sustained Him in this task "apparently." This was our chance to progress, so we probably all took it, except those who remain the messengers of Satan. Yeshua and Heavenly Father thus organized this world spiritually before it was created materially. It was all planned, in accordance with the Father with input by the Son in the "players."

You may note that from the beginning Yeshua was one Yehovah Elohim with the Father. See Genesis 3:22 "the man has become one of us...." And there are other hints throughout the OT. So, yes Yeshua was more than just "God" or Elohim, He was Yehovah Elohim. Hebrews quotes Psalms in showing that Yeshua was Elohim.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy athrone, O God(Elohim), is for bever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

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3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

This is by no means the current church-wide view, but I believe Yeshua was begotten as the unique Son before this world. That is He was already chosen by the Father for the task, and came into this world as the only begotten Son. We could not come to this world unless we sustained Him in this task "apparently." This was our chance to progress, so we probably all took it, except those who remain the messengers of Satan. Yeshua and Heavenly Father thus organized this world spiritually before it was created materially. It was all planned, in accordance with the Father with input by the Son in the "players."

You may note that from the beginning Yeshua was one Yehovah Elohim with the Father. See Genesis 3:22 "the man has become one of us...." And there are other hints throughout the OT. So, yes Yeshua was more than just "God" or Elohim, He was Yehovah Elohim. Hebrews quotes Psalms in showing that Yeshua was Elohim.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy athrone, O God(Elohim), is for bever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This all begs the question of when He obtained divine status.  The Divine Council was held before creation of Earth, etc., so cannot be used as an argument for the divinity of Jesus before the Council.  The words "begotten" or "unique son" are legal terms designating the legal heir.*  Since he was First Born that would be the rationale.  His formal investment would come after that Council.

*  Yosef Tawil, An Akkadian Lexical Companion for Biblical Hebrew (KTAV, 2009), 142.

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39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This all begs the question of when He obtained divine status.  The Divine Council was held before creation of Earth, etc., so cannot be used as an argument for the divinity of Jesus before the Council.  The words "begotten" or "unique son" are legal terms designating the legal heir.*  Since he was First Born that would be the rationale.  His formal investment would come after that Council.

*  Yosef Tawil, An Akkadian Lexical Companion for Biblical Hebrew (KTAV, 2009), 142.

I think you have known me long enough to know what I think Robert, but fair enough. However, I do not particularly like the word "divine." I consider it to be unintelligible. Are angels divine? I prefer more scripturally accurate words. So, I believe that on a different world/earth the Father told Yeshua, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." So, being the first from that world to follow Him that closely, He became the first born and our "elder brother." He became the chosen one - called to be the only begotten Son. That would have been before the council organizing this world. Where He was already seated on the right hand of the Father.

How do you think that legal term comports with this scripture:

D&C 113:6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a adescendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the bpriesthood, and the ckeys of the kingdom, for an densign, and for the gathering of my people in the elast days.

Edited by RevTestament

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In the premortal council, we have been taught there were two plans presented.  1) Satans plan for everyone to be exactly obedient and 2) Christ’s plan to allow us to make mistakes and have a savior to save us.

President Nelson’s recent remarks confuse me.  

"Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles." 
- Russell M. Nelson

Isn't exact obedience Satans plan?

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5 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

In the premortal council, we have been taught there were two plans presented.  1) Satans plan for everyone to be exactly obedient and 2) Christ’s plan to allow us to make mistakes and have a savior to save us.

President Nelson’s recent remarks confuse me.  

"Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles." 
- Russell M. Nelson

Isn't exact obedience Satans plan?

This is an interesting article. I think some past leaders would agree.http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/a-widespread-misunderstanding-about-satans-war-on-agency

Edited by Tacenda

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20 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

In the premortal council, we have been taught there were two plans presented.  1) Satans plan for everyone to be exactly obedient and 2) Christ’s plan to allow us to make mistakes and have a savior to save us.

President Nelson’s recent remarks confuse me.  

"Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles." 
- Russell M. Nelson

Isn't exact obedience Satans plan?

No. The Savior was exactly obedient or without sin.

Satan's plan was to coerce or compel obedience. It is still in effect on the earth. He tries to institute governments which compel obedience - thus, there is no agency to make wrong choices without getting killed.  The Savior doesn't compel belief. However to escape Hell, one must believe in Him and repent. If one follows more exactly, they can access the power of God to perform His miracles, if that is His will.

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I am not aware of any point in time when Jehovah/Jesus was anything other than God/divine. The Word was with and like God 'in the beginning'.

'One might ask if there was ever a time when Jesus was not God. Mortal minds cannot conceive of such a time, and the scriptures themselves do not explicitly speak of such a time'. See Andrew C. Skinner, 'The Premortal Godhood of Christ: A Restoration Perspective'in Jesus Christ: Son of God, Savior, ed. Paul H. Peterson, Gary L. Hatch, and Laura D. Card (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2002), 50–78.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan

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29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am not aware of any point in time when Jehovah/Jesus was anything other than God/divine. The Word was with and like God 'in the beginning'.

'One might ask if there was ever a time when Jesus was not God. Mortal minds cannot conceive of such a time, and the scriptures themselves do not explicitly speak of such a time'. See Andrew C. Skinner, 'The Premortal Godhood of Christ: A Restoration Perspective'in Jesus Christ: Son of God, Savior, ed. Paul H. Peterson, Gary L. Hatch, and Laura D. Card (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2002), 50–78.

Yet God the Father hasn't always been divine, correct? He was once human and is now exalted. How could Jesus be eternally divine and God the Father not?

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I think the same statement pertains: 'Mortal minds cannot conceive of such a time, and the scriptures themselves do not explicitly speak of such a time'.

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12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think the same statement pertains: 'Mortal minds cannot conceive of such a time, and the scriptures themselves do not explicitly speak of such a time'.

Yet many mortal minds conceive of such a time, namely the LDS. Or do you not agree that God was a human prior to being God? Maybe you can explain your position a bit more :) 

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34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Or do you not agree that God was a human prior to being God? Maybe you can explain your position a bit more :) 

'Prior to'? God the Father is a human right now. That's the game-changer. He is not one kind of being in contrast to our human 'substance'. As Joseph Smith taught:

Quote

If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible — I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form — like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God ...

God is the great Creator, but to us, He is Father. Once we understand that we are offspring and not creatures, the insurmountable chasm between 'divine' and 'human' -- present since the Greek Platonists got their philosophical hands on the mortal Messiah -- completely collapses.

It is not just the case that God was a man like us but that He is a man like us. And always will be. And then we are faced with His personal invitation, as one of the apostles recently phrased it, to join the family business.

I thought I'd answered Tony's question, but I'll try again.

What do you think you knew about Jehovah that would have led you to sustain His call and appointment as our Savior and Redeemer?

I knew Him as God the Son, the promised Messiah. I was intimately familiar with His divine attributes, which were 'like unto God'. I knew Him in such a way that I could place complete faith in Him there as I must here. When we collectively rejected Satan, we 'overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of [our] testimony'. This is impossible unless we knew Jehovah as our sacrificial lamb. I loved Him, and His very presence caused me and you and all the other sons and daughters of God to shout for joy far more times than scripture records.

I was given the opportunity in a vision once to fall down at His feet and worship him, bathing His beautiful feet in my tears of gratitude. It was an experience that felt not just natural but familiar. I would be surprised if we all hadn't done so many times already. With all my heart and mind, I look forward to doing so again.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am not aware of any point in time when Jehovah/Jesus was anything other than God/divine. The Word was with and like God 'in the beginning'.

 

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

God is the great Creator, but to us, He is Father. Once we understand that we are offspring and not creatures, the insurmountable chasm between 'divine' and 'human' -- present since the Greek Platonists got their philosophical hands on Christ -- completely collapses.

It is not just the case that God was a man like us but that He is a man like us. And always will be. And then we are faced with His personal invitation, as one of the apostles recently phrased, to join the family business.

Ok, your language is confusing me. In the first post, you use the word divine, saying that Jesus always was divine. In the second post you say there is no difference between divine and human. So that makes Jesus fully divine and fully human (something we Catholics vigorously teach ;) )

Does that make us now fully divine and human, too?

What was the difference between us and Jesus in this pre-mortal council? Why was Jesus chosen? If we and He are exactly the same, how was He able to achieve the atonement? Is that because He was without sin? If so, how come He could go without sin and we cannot, if we are the same? Was there a chance that He was going to sin, if He is like us? 

I'm not arguing against the LDS view, I'm just trying to understand it here. I done got confused :) 

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24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does that make us now fully divine and human, too?

No. That's the difference. The divine option is before us -- and even inherent in us -- but we must choose it, and that choice forever leads through the mediation of the great Messiah. Through Him and Him alone, we recognise and fulfil our divine potential.

Quote

What was the difference between us and Jesus in this pre-mortal council?

He was fully God, to use your language. We, clearly, are not. But barring rebellion, that's the inevitable outcome because of who we are by birthright and because of what He did to remove every last obstacle but our own wills.

Quote

Was there a chance that He was going to sin, if He is like us?

Absolutely not. He was a worthy object of our complete faith and devotion from the beginning. His redemptive power was in operation from the beginning; otherwise, we could not have overcome Satan 'by the blood of the lamb' before the Lamb was even born.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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For those who the time and inclination....

A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
From Improvement Era, Aug. 1916, 934–42; capitalization, punctuation, paragraphing, and spelling standardized.

In the early 1900s, some discussion arose among Church members about the roles of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following in 1916 to clarify the meaning of certain scriptures where Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, is designated as the Father.....


The scriptures plainly and repeatedly affirm that God is the Creator of the earth and the heavens and all things that in them are. In the sense so expressed, the Creator is an Organizer. God created the earth as an organized sphere; but He certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for “the elements are eternal” (D&C 93:33).
So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. (For illustrative instances see Gen. 2:7; Moses 3:7; Abr. 5:7.) Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19 for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences” we are to understand personal “spirits” (see Abr. 3:22–23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence,” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).
The term “Father” as applied to Deity occurs in sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of the four significations specified in the following treatment should be carefully segregated.

1. “Father” as Literal Parent

Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification—literally that of Parent —are too numerous and specific to require citation. The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title “Elohim,” is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” (Heb. 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught by Jesus Christ to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name” (Matt. 6:9).
Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, “Son” and “Father.” Indeed, He specifically said to the brother of Jared: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title “Son of God” as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary.


2. “Father” as Creator

A second scriptural meaning of “Father” is that of Creator; e.g., in passages referring to any one of the Godhead as “the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are” (Ether 4:7; see also Alma 11:38–39; Mosiah 15:4).
God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, not of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.
With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called “the Father,” and even “the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth” (see passages before cited and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called “The Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6; compare 2 Ne. 19:6). The descriptive titles “Everlasting” and “Eternal” in the foregoing texts are synonymous.
That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation is set forth in the book Jesus the Christ, chapter 4 [by James E. Talmage]. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is consistently called the Father of heaven and earth in the sense explained above; and since His creations are of eternal quality He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.


3. Jesus Christ the “Father” of Those Who Abide in His Gospel

A third sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the “Father” has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.
In fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the Apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the gospel through the ministry of the Apostles. Read in our Lord’s own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him:
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
“And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
“And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:6–12).
And further:
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:20–24).
To His faithful servants in the present dispensation the Lord has said, “Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me” (D&C 50:41).
Salvation is attainable only through compliance with the laws and ordinances of the gospel; and all who are thus saved become sons and daughters unto God in a distinctive sense. In a revelation given through Joseph the Prophet to Emma Smith, the Lord Jesus addressed the woman as “my daughter” and said, “For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom” (D&C 25:1). In many instances the Lord had addressed men as His sons (e.g., D&C 9:1; D&C 34:3; D&C 121:7).
That by obedience to the gospel men may become sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and, through Him, as sons of His Father, is set forth in many revelations given in the current dispensation. Thus we read in an utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hyrum Smith in 1829:
“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.
“I am the same who came unto mine own and mine own received me not;
“But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen” (D&C 11:28–30).
To Orson Pratt the Lord spoke through Joseph the seer, in 1830:
“My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;
“The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
“Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son” (D&C 34:1–3).
In 1830 the Lord thus addressed Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:
“Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.
“I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one” (D&C 35:1–2).
Consider also the following given in 1831:
“Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ —
“The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;
“The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;
“But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons” (D&C 39:1–4).
In a revelation given through Joseph Smith in March 1831 we read:
“For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world —a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not.
“I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not; but unto as many as received me gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God; and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life” (D&C 45:7–8).
A forceful exposition of this relationship between Jesus Christ as the Father and those who comply with the requirements of the gospel as His children was given by Abinadi, centuries before our Lord’s birth in the flesh:
“And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
“Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord —I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
“For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
“Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed” (Mosiah 15:10–13).
In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: “If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye do the deeds of your father. … If God were your Father, ye would love me. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 41–42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the tares: “The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one” (Matt. 13:38).
Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew—born of God, as the inspired word states:
“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 Jn. 3:8–10).
Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood. Of such we read: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God” (D&C 76:58; compare D&C 132:20, and contrast D&C 132:17 in same section; see also D&C 132:37). Yet though they be gods, they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: “And they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (D&C 76:59).
By the new birth—that of water and the Spirit —mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided “begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833:
“And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
“And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21–22).
For such figurative use of the term “begotten” in application to those who are born unto God, see Paul’s explanation: “For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). An analogous instance of sonship attained by righteous service is found in the revelation relating to the order and functions of priesthood, given in 1832:
“For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies:
“They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God” (D&C 84:33–34).
If it be proper to speak of those who accept and abide in the gospel as Christ’s sons and daughters —and upon this matter the scriptures are explicit and cannot be gainsaid nor denied —it is consistently proper to speak of Jesus Christ as the Father of the righteous, they having become His children and He having been made their Father through the second birth —the baptismal regeneration.


4. Jesus Christ the “Father” by Divine Investiture of Authority

A fourth reason for applying the title “Father” to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30; see also John 17:11, 22); yet He declared, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), and further, “I am come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43; see also John 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Ne. 20:35; 3 Ne. 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (D&C 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.
We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that angel the Lord said, “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Ex. 23:21).
The ancient Apostle John was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Rev. 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden:
“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
“Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God” (Rev. 22:8–9).
And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself:
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Rev. 22:12–13).
The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying, “I come quickly,” “I am Alpha and Omega,” though he meant that Jesus Christ would come and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.
None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ:
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:15–19).
From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was “the firstborn of every creature,” and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as “the firstborn from the dead,” this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; see also 1 Cor. 15:23); and “the first begotten of the dead” (Rev. 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul:
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:28–29).
John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev. 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said, as before cited, “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth” (D&C 93:23).
There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of humankind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” (Heb. 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any or all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.
Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.
The First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsSalt Lake City, Utah, 30 June 1916

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3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

In the premortal council, we have been taught there were two plans presented.  1) Satans plan for everyone to be exactly obedient and 2) Christ’s plan to allow us to make mistakes and have a savior to save us.

President Nelson’s recent remarks confuse me.  

"Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles." 
- Russell M. Nelson

Isn't exact obedience Satans plan?

No, his was coercion or no laws (no law means no punishment), neither of which is obedience in Gospel terminology which is a choice to align our will  with God's Will.

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think you have known me long enough to know what I think Robert, but fair enough. However, I do not particularly like the word "divine." I consider it to be unintelligible. Are angels divine? I prefer more scripturally accurate words. So, I believe that on a different world/earth the Father told Yeshua, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." So, being the first from that world to follow Him that closely, He became the first born and our "elder brother." He became the chosen one - called to be the only begotten Son. That would have been before the council organizing this world. Where He was already seated on the right hand of the Father.

How do you think that legal term comports with this scripture:

D&C 113:6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a adescendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the bpriesthood, and the ckeys of the kingdom, for an densign, and for the gathering of my people in the elast days.

Generally speaking, the scion or heir to a throne does not become coregent until formal investment.  That he is the heir is already known and well understood due to his being the First Born.  However, as such he is no different otherwise from the rest of us -- a spirit child of his Father and our older Brother.  As with King Mosiah II, he cannot be coregent until the ceremony is held, the occasion being King Benjamin's speech -- during which Mosiah II's investiture took place.

Satan was upset and wanted to be the legal heir (Only Begotten), managing to convince a third of the host of heaven.  This was a big deal.

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3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

He was fully God, to use your language. We, clearly, are not

So, there was never a time when Jesus wasn't God.

But what about God the Father? When he was a human just like us then he wasn't God like he is now. So Jesus never was just like us (He was fully God) but God the Father is different because when he was on an Earth he was like us; not fully God.

Am I understanding correctly? Again, no attack or disparagement intended. I thought I understood the LDS position here but I hadn't considered the status of Jesus' divinity in LDS theology during the premortal times.

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32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

........................

He was fully God, to use your language. We, clearly, are not. But barring rebellion, that's the inevitable outcome because of who we are by birthright and because of what He did to remove every last obstacle but our own wills.

Absolutely not. He was a worthy object of our complete faith and devotion from the beginning. His redemptive power was in operation from the beginning; otherwise, we could not have overcome Satan 'by the blood of the lamb' before the Lamb was even born.

Jesus was not fully God until his divine investiture of authority following the Divine Council where the options were laid out and choices made (Abraham on First & Second Estate).

Moreover, as a human Jesus had to be able to sin in order to make His choices valid.  Free agency not only applies, but requires real choices.

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1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, there was never a time when Jesus wasn't God.

But what about God the Father? When he was a human just like us then he wasn't God like he is now. So Jesus never was just like us (He was fully God) but God the Father is different because when he was on an Earth he was like us; not fully God.

Am I understanding correctly? Again, no attack or disparagement intended. I thought I understood the LDS position here but I hadn't considered the status of Jesus' divinity in LDS theology during the premortal times.

Both God the Father and Jesus were human and could have failed during life on their respective Earth -- only thus could their correct choices be valid.  "As man now is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

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15 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Am I understanding correctly? Again, no attack or disparagement intended. I thought I understood the LDS position here but I hadn't considered the status of Jesus' divinity in LDS theology during the premortal times.

There are different opinions on how our doctrine should be interpreted in this case.  Some have interpreted it as God the Father and/or God the Son as having existed at a time not having been exalted and therefore not divine.  Or some other variation.

I think  I tend to align more with Hamba though I don't know if our reasoning is the same.  For me, that which led to God becoming the Father and Jesus becoming the Son has always been part of who they are and thus I see them as eternally God.

Then there is the issue of Time itself.  Does it really exist as we understand it or is that an artifact of mortality.  Maybe when it comes to Godhood, talking "then vs now" or "before" or even "past and present" is useless as those concepts are unnecessary in God's existence and humanity's when we are in a different state of being.

Edited by Calm
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24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, there was never a time when Jesus wasn't God.

As noted in the book chapter I quote from above, we know nothing about such a time if it ever was.

Quote

But what about God the Father? When he was a human just like us then he wasn't God like he is now.

Would you say the same thing about the Son? That when he was human just like us, then he wasn't God like He is now? I thought you 'vigorously' taught that the Messiah was fully human and fully divine?

Quote

I hadn't considered the status of Jesus' divinity in LDS theology during the premortal times.

Thanks. It's an essential consideration -- and one I'm not sure all Latter-day Saints engage in, to be honest. I worry sometimes that the homey 'elder brother' language may sometimes get in the way of what both past and Latter-day prophets have clearly taught.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Jesus was not fully God until his divine investiture of authority following the Divine Council where the options were laid out and choices made (Abraham on First & Second Estate).

You're going to have to provide a better reference than that, Robert. I reckon one could argue that Christ wasn't fully fully divine until after His resurrection, but that's not what we mean by the term. 

Quote

Moreover, as a human Jesus had to be able to sin in order to make His choices valid.  Free agency not only applies, but requires real choices.

Of course! In part, that is what makes God God. Being the greatest of all and lacking any external oversight, He could make any choice He would, but He doesn't. That in no way means we have to worry that He might. He is a fit object of our faith.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Would you say the same thing about the Son? That when he was human just like us, then he wasn't God like He is now? I thought you 'vigorously' taught that the Messiah was fully human and fully divine?

My questions aren't attacking your position, but I'm asking for clarification because some things aren't making sense to me. So asking me about my position doesn't help me understand yours. But to answer your question, yes, Catholics believe that Jesus was 100% divine AND 100% human. Logically impossible, yes, but it is one of our mysteries (and we claim that the full nature of God is inherently unknowable to our mortal minds).

I'm only answering your question. I'm not interested right now in defending the Catholic position so let's not go down that tangent. I'm more interested in understanding (not attacking) the LDS position.

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