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Humanism and the Ideal Perfected Human

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Every cause and organization will eventually face a faction or challenge that will threaten to undermine its founding goals.

In what way does that apply to the LDS Church?

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5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:
2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Every cause and organization will eventually face a faction or challenge that will threaten to undermine its founding goals.

In what way does that apply to the LDS Church?

Read the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

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5 hours ago, longview said:
 
Quote

 

  5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:
  8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Every cause and organization will eventually face a faction or challenge that will threaten to undermine its founding goals.

In what way does that apply to the LDS Church?

 

Read the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

Could you spell it out for me what faction(s) or challenge(s) threaten to undermine the LDS Church founding goals?

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4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Could you spell it out for me what faction(s) or challenge(s) threaten to undermine the LDS Church founding goals?

The Book of Mormon is replete with examples of "members of the church" betraying the Lord and causing dissension within the community.  Today we have various factions such as Fundamentalists (who exercise unrighteous dominion over their members as to who will have what partners in marriage, etc) and other apostates breaking away from the SLC Church. 

Another is the wonderful governmental system set up by King Mosiah II to provide for rule by an hierarchy of righteous judges.  Several various "kingmen" engaged in subversion to gain power for themselves and their allies.  In our day, we have members going against the warnings of David O McKay and Ezra Taft Benson in foolishly supporting leftist totalitarian designs.

In our day we actually had an apostle who made a grievous error in thinking he could justify having a second "wife" to carry on a secret affair.  His name was Richard R Lyman, called by Joseph F. Smith, April 7, 1918 – November 12, 1943.

Edited by longview

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Could you spell it out for me what faction(s) or challenge(s) threaten to undermine the LDS Church founding goals?

Those who want to bring the church into conformity with their own cultural values instead of vice-versa, those who want to use the church as an avenue to wealth or power, those who want to replace revelation with reason, those who want the church to become a purely charitable giving organization to win praise of the world, those who would use the gospel as a tool to oppress their families, those who want to deny or downplay all the less pleasant doctrines, dissenters who teach all manner of false doctrine, etc.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Those who want to bring the church into conformity with their own cultural values instead of vice-versa, those who want to use the church as an avenue to wealth or power, those who want to replace revelation with reason, those who want the church to become a purely charitable giving organization to win praise of the world, those who would use the gospel as a tool to oppress their families, those who want to deny or downplay all the less pleasant doctrines, dissenters who teach all manner of false doctrine, etc.

Today in Elder's Quorum the lesson focused on the primary objective of the LDS Church, which is to Prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  According to Elder Christofferson at last April Conference, this entails two means: (1) the Gathering thru missionary work, and (2) Redemption of the Dead thru temple work.  I just don't see any of those factions or challenges as likely to prevent adequate focus on those objectives.

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5 hours ago, longview said:

The Book of Mormon is replete with examples of "members of the church" betraying the Lord and causing dissension within the community.  Today we have various factions such as Fundamentalists (who exercise unrighteous dominion over their members as to who will have what partners in marriage, etc) and other apostates breaking away from the SLC Church. 

I have studied the history and current existence of offshoots of the LDS Restoration, and none of them represent any sort of threat to the LDS Church.  Nearly all of them are far too small and failure prone.  There is the BofM "Nephite disease" which Nibley used to warn us about, and it should be a real concern when anyone claims that "All is well in Zion."

5 hours ago, longview said:

Another is the wonderful governmental system set up by King Mosiah II to provide for rule by an hierarchy of righteous judges.  Several various "kingmen" engaged in subversion to gain power for themselves and their allies.  In our day, we have members going against the warnings of David O McKay and Ezra Taft Benson in foolishly supporting leftist totalitarian designs.

The Rev Chris Hedges (Presbyterian) says that the Evangelical community is now fascist totalitarian.

5 hours ago, longview said:

In our day we actually had an apostle who made a grievous error in thinking he could justify having a second "wife" to carry on a secret affair.  His name was Richard R Lyman, called by Joseph F. Smith, April 7, 1918 – November 12, 1943.

Yes, and Apostle Lyman was excommunicated.

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17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Today in Elder's Quorum the lesson focused on the primary objective of the LDS Church, which is to Prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  According to Elder Christofferson at last April Conference, this entails two means: (1) the Gathering thru missionary work, and (2) Redemption of the Dead thru temple work.  I just don't see any of those factions or challenges as likely to prevent adequate focus on those objectives.

Not in the lives of all but in individual lives, yes, these factions or causes can diminish and subvert the message of the gospel.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not in the lives of all but in individual lives, yes, these factions or causes can diminish and subvert the message of the gospel.

Yeh,  I'll give you that.  It certainly isn't a toy Gospel.  It's the real thing, and the stakes are high.

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13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have studied the history and current existence of offshoots of the LDS Restoration, and none of them represent any sort of threat to the LDS Church.  Nearly all of them are far too small and failure prone.  There is the BofM "Nephite disease" which Nibley used to warn us about, and it should be a real concern when anyone claims that "All is well in Zion."

I was very impressed by the presentations of the Community of Christ at Sunstone Europe this weekend. It may have a growth problem now, but it seems to have a very admirable structure, and moral and spiritual grounding. Threat to the church or not, it gives me hope that the church can change for the better and still retain value.

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I was very impressed by the presentations of the Community of Christ at Sunstone Europe this weekend. It may have a growth problem now, but it seems to have a very admirable structure, and moral and spiritual grounding. Threat to the church or not, it gives me hope that the church can change for the better and still retain value.

I see a hollow structure that has abandoned all of its restorationist ideology to try to become “mainstream”. More people applaud it but they are mostly the kind of people who would never join it.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I see a hollow structure that has abandoned all of its restorationist ideology to try to become “mainstream”. More people applaud it but they are mostly the kind of people who would never join it.

Yes, I said essentially the same thing as a believing Mormon, but maybe it was also because I hadn't met them, listened to their processes and experiences? 

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9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I was very impressed by the presentations of the Community of Christ at Sunstone Europe this weekend. It may have a growth problem now, but it seems to have a very admirable structure, and moral and spiritual grounding. Threat to the church or not, it gives me hope that the church can change for the better and still retain value.

 

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I see a hollow structure that has abandoned all of its restorationist ideology to try to become “mainstream”. More people applaud it but they are mostly the kind of people who would never join it.

I spent 7 years doing research in Independence, Missouri, in the RLDS Archives.  I found the staff, church historian, apostles, and patriarch at RLDS HQ to be very nice, friendly people, and quite sophisticated.  At the same time, they abandoned all the Restoration distinctives and became a mainstream Protestant church, which is fine, but it carries with it all the consequences of such mainstream Christianity -- a constant loss of members and a future oblivion.  None of them, so far as I could tell, understood any of that.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I spent 7 years doing research in Independence, Missouri, in the RLDS Archives.  I found the staff, church historian, apostles, and patriarch at RLDS HQ to be very nice, friendly people, and quite sophisticated.  At the same time, they abandoned all the Restoration distinctives and became a mainstream Protestant church, which is fine, but it carries with it all the consequences of such mainstream Christianity -- a constant loss of members and a future oblivion.  None of them, so far as I could tell, understood any of that.

They seem to emphasize continuing revelation. I wonder what Restoration distinctives you consider they lost? They've, in their words, "let go of the One True Church" position. They retain a system of common consent which appears to be more genuine than what the LDS church currently practices. 

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7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

They seem to emphasize continuing revelation. I wonder what Restoration distinctives you consider they lost? They've, in their words, "let go of the One True Church" position. They retain a system of common consent which appears to be more genuine than what the LDS church currently practices. 

Your second sentence answers the first one. If all churches are okay then why “restore” the church? The First Vision where Joseph was told they were all wrong has to be chucked. They chucked the Book of Mormon, the proselyting mandate, the redemption of the dead, and then reintroduced the Trinity.

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7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

They seem to emphasize continuing revelation. I wonder what Restoration distinctives you consider they lost? They've, in their words, "let go of the One True Church" position. They retain a system of common consent which appears to be more genuine than what the LDS church currently practices. 

It is true that the Community of Christ is very democratic, and women hold the priesthood.  However, there has been a top-down effort to dispose of Restorationism.  Those disagreeing have been "silenced" and welcomed to find the exit.  Joseph Smith Jr would find himself bounced right out of the CC today.  He would not recognize it.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Your second sentence answers the first one. If all churches are okay then why “restore” the church? The First Vision where Joseph was told they were all wrong has to be chucked. They chucked the Book of Mormon, the proselyting mandate, the redemption of the dead, and then reintroduced the Trinity.

 

52 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is true that the Community of Christ is very democratic, and women hold the priesthood.  However, there has been a top-down effort to dispose of Restorationism.  Those disagreeing have been "silenced" and welcomed to find the exit.  Joseph Smith Jr would find himself bounced right out of the CC today.  He would not recognize it.

Thanks for the responses. I'm genuinely curious.

I heard the sacrament blessed by a woman for the first time in my life yesterday. They use the same wording I heard all my life. It was pretty neat. And my impression was that their spiritual objectives are very principle and action-centered. I'll go and find out some more, then.

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

........................

I heard the sacrament blessed by a woman for the first time in my life yesterday. They use the same wording I heard all my life. It was pretty neat. And my impression was that their spiritual objectives are very principle and action-centered. I'll go and find out some more, then.

Yes, do, and report back.

Mainstream Christian churches have done this already (as have progressive Jewish congregations), but have been hemmorhaging members at the rate of death spiral.  The LDS Church in America, for example, just replaced Methodism as the 3rd largest church in the country.  Of course many of those forming the CC were graduates of a nearby Methodist seminary -- St Paul School of Theology.  It isn't that Methodism isn't nice.  It certainly is very nice, and civilized.  My grand-dad was a Methodist minister.  The problem is that there is much more to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than just being nice.

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3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, do, and report back.

Mainstream Christian churches have done this already (as have progressive Jewish congregations), but have been hemmorhaging members at the rate of death spiral.  The LDS Church in America, for example, just replaced Methodism as the 3rd largest church in the country.  Of course many of those forming the CC were graduates of a nearby Methodist seminary -- St Paul School of Theology.  It isn't that Methodism isn't nice.  It certainly is very nice, and civilized.  My grand-dad was a Methodist minister.  The problem is that there is much more to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than just being nice.

Will do. I'd be hesitant to reduce any of them to niceness...I mean that most denominations in America are likely to differ in church government and structure, for example. That, to me, can represent a test of the means versus the ostensible ends, revealing a great deal about the quality of relationships between congregants and the church community and the ideals set forth by the community. 

Btw it's possible that the LDS church is also suffering from hemorrhage in the US, with higher birthrates among the membership masking the losses. Maybe time will tell.

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3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

........................

Btw it's possible that the LDS church is also suffering from hemorrhage in the US, with higher birthrates among the membership masking the losses. Maybe time will tell.

Of course.  The upshot is that the evangelicals and Mormons (like the Orthodox Jews) have clearly resisted membership loss, and have in fact grown.  Being progressive has not been an advantage to the mainstream churches -- which are empty and closing their doors.

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3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course.  The upshot is that the evangelicals and Mormons (like the Orthodox Jews) have clearly resisted membership loss, and have in fact grown.  Being progressive has not been an advantage to the mainstream churches -- which are empty and closing their doors.

This is somewhat seen in American Catholicism, where the traditional churches are growing by leaps and bounds while the more liberal churches stagnant. Of course, there are far fewer traditional churches so the growth percentages are skewed somewhat by that.

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