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Guest joepalmeto

BoM name similarities in the Vernal Holley maps

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Guest joepalmeto

For many "doubting mormons", a very plausible idea is that either JS, or persons he was aquatinted with, wrote the BoM, with help from books like the Spaulding manuscript, A View of the Hebrews, and of course the KJV Bible.

It is difficult to look past the uncanny similarities between BoM names of cities/places that existed during the same time that Joseph Smith purportedly translated the gold plates into the BoM.

Vernal Holley identifies these similarites in his two maps(taken from this site):

Regional map representing towns etc during the early 1800s:

Holley1.jpg

Regional map of the BoM lands by the description given in the BoM, the narrow neck was a day and a half walk the distance between the lakes is about 37miles. Notice the names how nearly identical they are.

Holley2.jpg

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Here are two older versions of the above maps(taken from this site):

1820s era:

modernmap.gif

BoM names:

mormonmap.gif

Vernal Holley also provides a list of name similarities:

1820 name --> BoM name (note: * denotes Canadian locations)

------------------------------------

*Agathe, Saint --> Ogath

Alma --> Alma, Valley_of

Angola --> Angola

Antrim --> Antum

Antioch --> Anti-Anti

Boaz --> Boaz

*Conner --> Comner

*Ephrem, Saint --> Ephraim, Hill

Hellam --> Helam

Jacobsburg --> Jacobugath

Jerusalem --> Jerusalem

Jordan --> Jordan

Kishkiminetas --> Kishkumen

Lehigh --> Lehi

Mantua --> Manti

Monroe --> Moroni

Minoa --> Minon

*Moraviantown --> Morianton

*Morin --> Moron

Noah_Lakes --> Noah, Land_of

Oneida --> Onidah

Oneida_Castle --> Onidah, Hill

Omer --> Omner

*Rama --> Ramah

*Ripple_Lake --> Ripliancum, Waters_of

Sodom --> Sidom

Shiloh --> Shilom

Land_of_Midian --> Land_of_Midian

*Tecumseh/Tenecum --> Teancum

Yes, I have read the 1989 Farms review of Vernal's book, No it does not explain away the above.

Comments?

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Sidom = Sodom?

Ripple Lake = Ripliancum?

Monroe = Moroni?

Please.

If Joseph was such a clueless idiot, why would he have even bothered using a map to derive his names? Why not just make up names completely out of nothing?

And how do you explain Paanchi, Pacumeni, Aha and Korihor, all genuine Egyptian names? Did our boy spend time in an Egyptian hippie commune somewhere on the shores of the Great Lakes, before compiling his book?

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Hi Magyar...

If Joseph was such a clueless idiot, why would he have even bothered using a map to derive his names? Why not just make up names completely out of nothing?

I have NO idea but just a guess... :P

Maybe JS thought that this was the area of the BoM?

Maybe he thought the names of these locations were originally the BoM names just slightly changed over the years?

It seems to me that some early members thought the Hill Cumorah was in NY and that the final battle was there as well. So, who knows? I mean it could be?

How do defenders and well informed members explain the similarities?

~dancer~

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Guest johnny_cat

FARMS' response is here.

An excerpt:

Perhaps the most innovative portion of the study is the section on geography. Several anti-Mormons shouted with glee when they first laid eyes on the map of proposed Book of Mormon lands shown side by side with the map of New England (see figs. 1 and 2), while some LDS scholars looked forward to studying the maps since it seemed that a fresh point of attack worthy of scrutiny had finally reared its head. An exhaustive study of the maps is beyond our purview here.14 Nonetheless, my general findings are summarized below:

Of the 17 Book of Mormon place names treated by Mr. Holley, nine of them (more than 50%) are mentioned only once or twice in the entire Nephite/Jaredite record. This reveals an effort to try to pinpoint cities which have little or no clue given as to their respective locations from the text of the Book of Mormon itself. Even so, it surprised me to learn that many of the cities on Holley's maps are placed in incorrect relationship to one another.

For instance, Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla (Mormon 2:3b-4 and 3 Nephi 7:12a; 9:9a); Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 18:30-34; 23:1-4, 19; 24:20, 24-25); Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi (Alma 21:1; 24:1); and Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward (Alma 50:28-34; 51:26). Mr. Holley has altered these locational relationships in every instance. Furthermore, he displays a glaring inconsistency in his treatment of the river Sidon. On his maps, he sees a parallel between this river and the Genesee River, yet on pages 14-15 he draws a parallel between the river Sidon and the Ohio River.

Other pertinent questions surface when considering just how original the place names are. For instance, several of the Book of Mormon place names appear in the Bible. These include Ephraim (2 Samuel 13:23), Ramah (Joshua 19:36), and, of course, Jerusalem. If the author of the Book of Mormon were given to pilfering, why would he need the Manuscript Story when the Bible would serve just as well?

It is also important to note that some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830. Angola was incorporated in 1873, and in Monroe County, Ohio, Jerusalem's post office wasn't established until January 8, 1850. Thus, Mr. Holley's claim that such places were known in the neighborhood of Joseph Smith is chronologically misinformed. Finally, to draw etymological parallels between "Jacobugath" and "Jacobsburg," or "Shurr" and "Sherbrooke" is to strain one's credulity.

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Hey Joe,

Isn't possible/plausible that God inspired those who named those towns and places in the 18th & 19th century to give them names that were similar to the actual places & names in the BOM? This could in turn inspire Joseph Smith, and confirm for him the correct names & their relative locations.

Since we have no record of who named these places, it is left unrevealed their motivations or inspirations in naming these places.

Thus, there is no way to refute my theory, nor will there likely arise any informaton that can prove it false.

(I happen to share your observation & suspicion about these coincidences, but wanted to try my hand at constructing an impentrable logical fortress. It's really not that hard to do, I'm finding.)

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Guest johnny_cat
Isn't possible/plausible that God inspired those who named those towns and places in the 18th & 19th century to give them names that were similar to the actual places & names in the BOM? This could in turn inspire Joseph Smith, and confirm for him the correct names & their relative locations.

Since we have no record of who named these places, it is left unrevealed their motivations or inspirations in naming these places.

Thus, there is no way to refute my theory, nor will there likely arise any informaton that can prove it false.

Cute.

Notice no one has said anything remotely like that. But it makes for a nice caricature of apologists and poisons the well ahead of any response.

Isn't it remotely plausible that Mr. Holley manipulated place names and locations to fit a preconceived notion?

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Hey Joe,

Isn't possible/plausible that God inspired those who named those towns and places in the 18th & 19th century to give them names that were similar to the actual places & names in the BOM?  This could in turn inspire Joseph Smith, and confirm for him the correct names & their relative locations.

Since we have no record of who named these places, it is left unrevealed their motivations or inspirations in naming these places.

Thus, there is no way to refute my theory, nor will there likely arise any informaton that can prove it false.

(I happen to share your observation & suspicion about these coincidences, but wanted to try my hand at constructing an impentrable logical fortress.  It's really not that hard to do, I'm finding.)

Corky, that just aint FAIR to use the typical apologist argument of God can do anything He wants to make your point. :P

The other Joe

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Dear Corky:

Despite your childish attempt to belittle the opposition, you share much more in common with your opponents than you know. As your rapid movements between Book of Mormon geography and Mormon patriarchal blessings clearly demonstrates, your sole objective is to find some rational bit of information that you can sink your critical teeth into in order to substantiate your view. Do please continue. You may become an apologist extraordinaire.

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Guest johnny_cat
Corky, that just aint FAIR to use the typical apologist argument of God can do anything He wants to make your point.

I rest my case.

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Gato Juan,

Do you have evidence of Mr. Holley's having deliberately misinformed via this map? That is a serious accusation.

Whether an explanation comes from a skeptic's attempt at "poisoning the well" (another nasty accusation), or from inspiration, isn't it possible that via either method, the explanation can have genuine merit and can help assuage doubts in some believers? To that end, this is a good work.

I merely wanted to be the first to posit this theory, as it has merit, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Sincerely,

Delbert Kinderhook.

(Goofing aside, it's a beautiful Wednesday morning here on the eastern edge of the Great Basin - aka SLC)

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Guest johnny_cat
Yeah, now the foot is in the other shoe.

Which are you accusing me of, using the argument Corky outlined or belittling critics?

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Guest johnny_cat
Do you have evidence of Mr. Holley's having deliberately misinformed via this map? That is a serious accusation.

I said nothing about deliberate misinformation. Molding evidence to fit conclusions happens all the time. Reading the FARMS response, the evidence doesn't quite fit as neatly as Mr. Holley argues, as locations don't match, and place names don't fit the time period.

Whether an explanation comes from a skeptic's attempt at "poisoning the well" (another nasty accusation), or from inspiration, isn't it possible that via either method, the explanation can have genuine merit and can help assuage doubts in some believers? To that end, this is a good work.

I merely wanted to be the first to posit this theory, as it has merit, in my not-so-humble opinion.

I thought your point was "to try [your] hand at constructing an impentrable logical fortress."

Snarky cheap shots are not helpful.

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Which are you accusing me of, using the argument Corky outlined or belittling critics?

Both, boss! :P

Joe

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Emmanuelish,

I think it's important to laugh at oneself - I try to do so on a regular basis, and on that note I hope my attempt at humor is not taken too personally. I have a pretty good hunch it is not going to be taken too seriously - we can agree on that, don't you think? :P

When I was in Jr. HS the band class would sometimes exchange instruments when a substitute teacher came, and the result was pretty pathetic... and funny.

For just one day I think we should all switch sides, apologists & skeptics, just to see how silly and entertaining the results might be.

While keeping the tone jovial, I do have a genuine interest in how apologists view ideological challenges. There is an anthropological aspect on these boards - including both sides, or rather the multiple sides - that is fascinating.

While the subjectmatter is pretty serious, I think some occasional humor is a good thing. No (intended) offense.

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Guest johnny_cat
Both, boss!

For pehaps the first time, I'm rendered speechless..

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I understand that you can't definitively place BoM events in the world at this time, but is there an internal map of BoM geography I could view online? (Sorry, don't mean to derail)

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In the apologist corner we have the heavyweight champion of the world:

NHM - Nahom

In the critics corner we have the 98 lb weakling:

*

Agathe, Saint --> Ogath

Alma --> Alma, Valley_of

Angola --> Angola

Antrim --> Antum

Antioch --> Anti-Anti

Boaz --> Boaz

*Conner --> Comner

*Ephrem, Saint --> Ephraim, Hill

Hellam --> Helam

Jacobsburg --> Jacobugath

Jerusalem --> Jerusalem

Jordan --> Jordan

Kishkiminetas --> Kishkumen

Lehigh --> Lehi

Mantua --> Manti

Monroe --> Moroni

Minoa --> Minon

*Moraviantown --> Morianton

*Morin --> Moron

Noah_Lakes --> Noah, Land_of

Oneida --> Onidah

Oneida_Castle --> Onidah, Hill

Omer --> Omner

*Rama --> Ramah

*Ripple_Lake --> Ripliancum, Waters_of

Sodom --> Sidom

Shiloh --> Shilom

Land_of_Midian --> Land_of_Midian

*Tecumseh/Tenecum --> Teancum

The critics 2 dozen lame similarities don't stand a chance.

It's a TKO for the apologists!!!!

:P

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Fiat Lux, unfortunately there is no such map. Some people have attempted to construct one based on descriptions of the geography in the BoM. Example such and such city was one day west of Zerahemla, or some other feature. When I was in seminary (in high school) we were given one such attempt at a map, but I don't know who made it or how to get a hold of one.

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Aw, John Corrill, are you being up front and honest in your side-by-side comparison, or did you hold back to make it look like NHM was all we have in our corner? :P

Seriously, do you want to add a few more (assuming you know of any), or do you want us to?

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Mr. Corrill has apparently forgotten to include the Egyptian names I mentioned earlier.

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Does anyone who favors Holley's claims intend to respond at all to the criticisms of the FARMS reviewer? Or will those criticisms simply be drowned out by the triumphant crowing?

And then let's do explain away NHM and the name Sariah and the Witnesses and the treaty-covenant pattern and the Asherah symbolism and the simile oaths and the guerrilla warfare and the name Alma and the Hebrew conditionals and the chiasms and etc.

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I bet that with a good, detailed map book of US states, I or anyone else could probably come up with a pretty good list that "almost" matched names from the Book of Mormon, too.

As Bro. Nibley noted long ago, there is no such thing as a clever forgery. They almost always fall apart within a short time period, under the scrutiny of experts.

If J.S. was indeed as clever as he would have had to have been to "create" the Book of Mormon, I don't think he would have been stupid enough to fill his book with place names from around his hometown.

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If J.S. was indeed as clever as he would have had to have been to "create" the Book of Mormon, I don't think he would have been stupid enough to fill his book with place names from around his hometown.

And yet, that list of 30 names from around his home town exists. Curiouser and curiouser.

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I'm going to take Dr. P up on his challenge of reading & responding to the FARMS response. My response may very well be quite underwhelming - I personally expect that to be the case.

However, I think we can all benefit from the immortal words of Coach John McKay, the former USC and original Tampa Bay Buccaneers football coach, who, in preparing his USC team for battle against their hated rival, UCLA, had these insightful words in his closing pregame remarks:

"...just remember, there are one billion Chinese who really don't care whether we win or lose."

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