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"Other announcements" Pres. Nelson

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

This is certainly a matter of study, prayer, and pondering for me.  Has been for quite some time.

Like @Hamba Tuhan has described, I see great things happening in terms of "becoming" and ministering.  If that's what President Nelson is referring to, than I agree.  It brings me great joy.

I also see those who doubt and who don't fit the mold being cast aside.  And that makes me sad.  And doesn't make me feel like "the work" is accelerating.

I’m interested in your thoughts on the Greek woman who Jesus compared to a dog (Mark 7; Matt 15).  Would she have been justified in believing Jesus had cast her aside with his words?  Why do you think she chose not to come to that conclusion?  

Do you think those who feel they’ve been cast aside might find hope in this scripture?  If so, how would you invite them to act on that hope?

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55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I checked this against the actual Newsroom media release. The 'viral' quote is not in the original Church source, nor is one about temples. There may be others. I have no idea, then, where this site is getting these quotes or why they would insert them into a Newsroom piece without indicating that they are adding to an official media release.

the "some more temples" is the 3.27 mark and "viral" is at the 1.07 point on the video on this site

https://www.calledtoshare.com/2019/09/03/membership-viral-brazil/

and the "other announcements" is here

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-brasilia-brazil-2019

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35 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’m interested in your thoughts on the Greek woman who Jesus compared to a dog (Mark 7; Matt 15).  Would she have been justified in believing Jesus had cast her aside with his words?  Why do you think she chose not to come to that conclusion? 

The disciples focused on her race and wanted to send her away.  Jesus focused on her faith and healed her daughter.

35 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Do you think those who feel they’ve been cast aside might find hope in this scripture?  If so, how would you invite them to act on that hope?

Yes.  And, like the woman, they ought to continue to exercise faith.

But, notice now you've flipped the scenario?  I spoke of members being cast aside by other members and leaders.  You may be honorably trying to find a scripture to give them hope.  I think we should focus on ourselves and what we can do to stop casting them aside.

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12 hours ago, rockpond said:

So it's basically just a platitude.  Nothing specific meant by it, not definable change, just the church is moving.

I'm fine with that.  I was just curious if anyone had an idea of what the prophet specifically may have been referring to as "moving forward at an accelerated pace".  And I think there have been some insightful answers to that.

Yes, I agree there have been several answers that have been insightful

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On 9/1/2019 at 4:51 PM, Thinking said:

“This work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can just hardly wait to bounce out of bed each morning and see what the day will bring.”

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

2018 -> 195,566

2017 -> 235,752

2016 -> 248,218

2015 -> 261,862

2014 -> 290,309

2013 -> 299,555

2012 -> 341,127

Actually the work moves ahead regardless of how many baptisms occur.  The goal is to present the gospel to as many as we can.  If people reject it, the missionary work for that person is a success.  The person who rejected the gospel has had a chance.  The work is done for that person.  It in a good way for that person but its done.

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6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Actually the work moves ahead regardless of how many baptisms occur.  The goal is to present the gospel to as many as we can.  If people reject it, the missionary work for that person is a success.  The person who rejected the gospel has had a chance.  The work is done for that person.  It in a good way for that person but its done.

Hopefully this will filter down to local leaders so that they will stop setting baptismal goals. 

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Hopefully this will filter down to local leaders so that they will stop setting baptismal goals. 

Amen to that.  I will never understand our cultural need to set goals that we have no control over actually accomplishing.  We are told over and over again that the spirit converts and that it's in God's hands and then we set goals on how many people we are going to baptize in a given year.  

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:
2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Hopefully this will filter down to local leaders so that they will stop setting baptismal goals. 

Amen to that.  I will never understand our cultural need to set goals that we have no control over actually accomplishing.  We are told over and over again that the spirit converts and that it's in God's hands and then we set goals on how many people we are going to baptize in a given year.

It's like following a star.  You would never reach it but it is worth the effort to reach for the unreachable star (queue in the music for Impossible Dream).  It is NOT a stick to beat you with.  Why not strive for greater extertion like that put forth like Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah?

 

Edited by longview
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3 minutes ago, longview said:

It's like following a star.  You would never reach it but it is worth the effort to reach for the unreachable star (queue in the music for Impossible Dream).  It is NOT a stick to beat you with.  Why not strive for greater extertion like that put forth like Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah?

 

Because goals that you have no control over reaching are largely useless and cause more harm than good.  

Why Setting the Wrong Goals Prevents Success

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23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because goals that you have no control over reaching are largely useless and cause more harm than good.  

Why Setting the Wrong Goals Prevents Success

Many times a goal is unrealistically set, either in duration, magnitude, effort, cost, whatever.  But this is NO reason for giving up.  Just stay in the feedback loop and modify your intermediate sub-goals (if necessary rethink your end goal).  I read the link.  I would strongly urge people to beware of the overly negative perspectives of writers on this website (Huffington Post) which consist of many columnists that strongly adhere to social justice collectivism (communism) that wallow overmuch in victimhood and outrage.   :cray:

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On 9/1/2019 at 9:51 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

If a revelation contradicts someone’s political or social or cultural views, the clamor will be present, regardless of how directly stated or well documented the revelation is. 

By nature of their callings, prophets are destined to be unpopular to a certain degree due to the revelations from God they convey. It is their lot in life. 

It is the reward of the prophets, as Nibley said.

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On 9/3/2019 at 8:37 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Absolutely no one is 'being cast aside'. But a moving vehicle forces a choice: on or off. And vacillation becomes increasingly difficult if the vehicle is indeed accelerating. As it does you, this makes me sad. But I don't think anyone has the power to change the basic 'physics' of the situation.

As Elder Maxwell said in 1978,

Quote

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had “never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life” (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ....

Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, “A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it” (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

In its mildest form, irreligion will merely be condescending toward those who hold to traditional Judeo-Christian values. In its more harsh forms, as is always the case with those whose dogmatism is blinding, the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments....

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/neal-a-maxwell/meeting-challenges-today/

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had “never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life” (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ....

Of course, this doesn't change our position that the First Presidency and Authorities of the church are fallible and could be wrong in their counsel.  Right?

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1 hour ago, longview said:

Many times a goal is unrealistically set, either in duration, magnitude, effort, cost, whatever.  But this is NO reason for giving up.  

It is a reason to set a different goal though.

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25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It is a reason to set a different goal though.

Absolutely agree.  What life is about.

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11 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Actually the work moves ahead regardless of how many baptisms occur.  The goal is to present the gospel to as many as we can.  If people reject it, the missionary work for that person is a success.  The person who rejected the gospel has had a chance.  The work is done for that person.  It in a good way for that person but its done.

My daughter is on a mission right now, and apparently her mission president did not get that memo.

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27 minutes ago, cinepro said:

My daughter is on a mission right now, and apparently her mission president did not get that memo.

if you don't mind sharing what country is she in? 

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Of course, this doesn't change our position that the First Presidency and Authorities of the church are fallible and could be wrong in their counsel.  Right?

We are free to make our choice.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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3 hours ago, rockpond said:

Of course, this doesn't change our position that the First Presidency and Authorities of the church are fallible and could be wrong in their counsel.  Right?

It does speak to the point that they are apt to be opposed and hated not because they are “wrong in their counsel” but because they are prophets who fearlessly convey the mind and will of God. 

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7 hours ago, longview said:

It's like following a star.  You would never reach it but it is worth the effort to reach for the unreachable star (queue in the music for Impossible Dream).  It is NOT a stick to beat you with.  Why not strive for greater extertion like that put forth like Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah?

 

As I recall, their desire was to raise their voice in mighty testimony and broad reach, not baptize a certain quota of converts. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

We are free to make our choice.

 

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It does speak to the point that they are apt to be opposed and hated not because they are “wrong in their counsel” but because they are prophets who fearlessly convey the mind and will of God. 

 

And there's the issue...

The teaching is "make no mistake" each member is required to follow the First Presidency and "don't hesitate" to follow the counsel of the authorities of the church, no matter what it is.

Then, when we are able to look back and see that what they taught wasn't correct, wasn't the revealed will of God, then the response is:  "they are fallible men, why did you trust them over getting your own spiritual confirmation".

 

 

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On 9/1/2019 at 3:51 PM, Thinking said:

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

2018 -> 195,566

2017 -> 235,752

2016 -> 248,218

2015 -> 261,862

2014 -> 290,309

2013 -> 299,555

2012 -> 341,127

If those numbers are correct those are the numbers for only on this side of the veil, and with more and more temples being built and more living members (any increase) joining it that means more work is now being done in temples for those who at least possibly could be receiving it in the realm of the dead.

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

 

 

And there's the issue...

The teaching is "make no mistake" each member is required to follow the First Presidency and "don't hesitate" to follow the counsel of the authorities of the church, no matter what it is.

if you haven't noticed, nobody is Church leadership is saying "follow me, I'll show you the way".  There are some leaders who say we should follow the prophet, and naturally anyone who knows what a prophet is should know why they should follow the prophet, but when that happens that is only because those leaders have faith in their more upper level leaders based upon what the Holy Ghost has taught them through the words of those leaders as the Holy Ghost confirmed that what they were saying was good and true.

So ultimately the ultimate teaching about who we should learn from is still being taught.  That we should learn from God for ourselves to know when and if we should follow the counsel of men who lead in the church, knowing then that those men have spoken as prophets of  God.

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Then, when we are able to look back and see that what they taught wasn't correct, wasn't the revealed will of God, then the response is:  "they are fallible men, why did you trust them over getting your own spiritual confirmation".

Underlying it all is the understanding that we should learn from God first and foremost before accepting any counsel from men in this world, and in the true church of Jesus Christ too.

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

 

 

And there's the issue...

The teaching is "make no mistake" each member is required to follow the First Presidency and "don't hesitate" to follow the counsel of the authorities of the church, no matter what it is.

Then, when we are able to look back and see that what they taught wasn't correct, wasn't the revealed will of God, then the response is:  "they are fallible men, why did you trust them over getting your own spiritual confirmation".

 

 

You are using quotes here without giving sources. What are we to make of that? Are they really words that others have uttered, or are they your own words that you put quotation marks around to give them apparent authenticity that they don’t really have? 

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