"Other announcements" Pres. Nelson

[Duncan]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-brasilia-brazil-2019

I get the new Temples but what do you make of the "other announcements" I asked one of our Elders, who's an AP, and he said they seem to be making changes in regards to member missionary work but he said that could just be a local thing, but maybe something to do with missionary work?

[MustardSeed]

I thought you had some insider info here Duncan!  Meanwhile I’ll clear space in my kitchen cabinet for the Maxwell House.

[Calm]

There is the youth program stuff.  It may not be completely new, but talks about integrating it, etc. might be considered announcements.

[Thinking]

“This work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can just hardly wait to bounce out of bed each morning and see what the day will bring.”

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

2018 -> 195,566

2017 -> 235,752

2016 -> 248,218

2015 -> 261,862

2014 -> 290,309

2013 -> 299,555

2012 -> 341,127

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Thinking said:

“This work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can just hardly wait to bounce out of bed each morning and see what the day will bring.”

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

So 'this work' = 'membership increase'?

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, Thinking said:

“This work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can just hardly wait to bounce out of bed each morning and see what the day will bring.”

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

2018 -> 195,566

2017 -> 235,752

2016 -> 248,218

2015 -> 261,862

2014 -> 290,309

2013 -> 299,555

2012 -> 341,127

Quality, not quantity. 

[Scott Lloyd]

“Elder Cook spoke to the missionaries about the prophet. ‘We—as the members the [Quorum of the] Twelve—and I personally testify we have seen the workings of the Spirit of God with him, and the revelations of Jesus Christ unto him, and the fulfillment of those revelations. I want you to know that we honor and sustain him.’”

So much for those who don’t think President Nelson has been receiving revelations. 

[SettingDogStar]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“Elder Cook spoke to the missionaries about the prophet. ‘We—as the members the [Quorum of the] Twelve—and I personally testify we have seen the workings of the Spirit of God with him, and the revelations of Jesus Christ unto him, and the fulfillment of those revelations. I want you to know that we honor and sustain him.’”

So much for those who don’t think President Nelson has been receiving revelations. 

I believe that he has had revelations. However, I know why people make that claim. Someone claiming that someone else has had revelations is not evidence of actual revelation. Plenty of people claim that. However, if we could actually see a revelation to read it (like Joseph and other biblical prophets) then that would quell a lot of the clamor. We didn't even see an actual revelation in 1978, just an announcement that one had been received. 

Of course these things can be known through the Spirit, but I understand why some have a hard time believing. Having something tangible (like the Book of Mormon) to study, ponder, and pray over is fair more faith invoking then "rumors" of revelations being received.

[Storm Rider]

On 9/1/2019 at 6:51 PM, Thinking said:

“This work is moving forward at an accelerated pace. I can just hardly wait to bounce out of bed each morning and see what the day will bring.”

The membership increase has dropped each year for the past seven years.

2018 -> 195,566

2017 -> 235,752

2016 -> 248,218

2015 -> 261,862

2014 -> 290,309

2013 -> 299,555

2012 -> 341,127

I don't think "work" equates to increase in members, rather increase in testifying to the world. The Church, nor any of its missionaries, has a responsibility to force others to join; however, they are under obligation to warn them. This is supported by several comments in the NT about not having the blood of this generation upon me. We are compelled, due to our desire for obedience and love of Christ, to warn and testify of Christ and his gospel to others. 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Storm Rider

[randy]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Quality, not quantity. 

Absolutely!  I'm not sure exactly where "we" took that fork in the road that caused us to think that ever increasing numbers equated to success in spreading and proclaiming the gospel.  The Church has been incredibly successful in spreading and proclaiming the gospel per the mandate given the Church by the Lord.  Whether or not the people choose to use their agency to accept it is obviously up to them.  I'm curious as to why some feel that decreasing numbers means or at least they infer....that the Church therefore is failing in it's mandate by the Lord to "Go ye therefore and teach all nations...."

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I believe that he has had revelations. However, I know why people make that claim. Someone claiming that someone else has had revelations is not evidence of actual revelation. Plenty of people claim that. However, if we could actually see a revelation to read it (like Joseph and other biblical prophets) then that would quell a lot of the clamor. We didn't even see an actual revelation in 1978, just an announcement that one had been received. 

Of course these things can be known through the Spirit, but I understand why some have a hard time believing. Having something tangible (like the Book of Mormon) to study, ponder, and pray over is fair more faith invoking then "rumors" of revelations being received.

I think it goes without saying that members of the Twelve work so closely with the president of the Church, that when one of them, speaking for all, testifies that revelations have been coming to him, they themselves would have received personal revelations confirming the prophet’s revelations. 

And I said this on this board not long ago, but it bears repeating, that a prophet day in and day out in the course of leading the Church is exposed to a constant flow of revelation on matters great and small. I think we risk cutting ourselves off from divine guidance if we set conditions on what form a message will take before we deign to regard it as a revelation. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

As much as I might wish that I had the voice of a trumpet and irresistible persuasion to bring every soul to Christ, even Alma the Younger, a great missionary, admitted, "I am a man, and do sin in my wish. 

"I ought to be content with what the Lord has allotted unto me."  I've written on my blog before that, in terms of sheer numbers, Moroni was not a very good missionary.  He tried (unsuccessfully, alas) to exhort his totally-apostate, completely-degenerate nation to faithfulness.  He failed.  In light of that, there were only three things he could do:

1. Save his own skin
2. Stand as a witness to the tragic downfall of his people
3. Protect the records in his possession and abridge them for the benefit of future generations

Yet all of that having been said, the lives of how many then-untold millions have been blessed because he had the courage and faith to see to it that we got the Book of Mormon?  When we read Doctrine and Covenants 18, perhaps we tend to overemphasize the "how-great-shall-be-your-joy-if-ye-shall-bring-many-souls-unto-me" clause and to underemphasize the "how-great-shall-be-your-joy-if-ye-shall-bring-one-soul-unto-me" clause.

A single missionary's single baptism can make a great difference.  See https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/the-power-of-the-one/

P.S.: Incidentally, I wrote that before I met Javier Misiego, the missionary from Spain who was called to Arizona where he met the less-active former missionary who felt like a failure because Jose Misiego, Javier's father, was the only person he baptized on his mission to Spain.  Now, Javier is my bishop.  While the ability to love others comes with the mantle, I think, Obispo Misiego is one of the most Christlike, loving men I have ever met in my life.  

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, randy said:

Absolutely!  I'm not sure exactly where "we" took that fork in the road that caused us to think that ever increasing numbers equated to success in spreading and proclaiming the gospel.  The Church has been incredibly successful in spreading and proclaiming the gospel per the mandate given the Church by the Lord.  Whether or not the people choose to use their agency to accept it is obviously up to them.  I'm curious as to why some feel that decreasing numbers means or at least they infer....that the Church therefore is failing in it's mandate by the Lord to "Go ye therefore and teach all nations...."

Indeed. 

Those who have perused the scriptures are acquainted with Nephi’s vision in which he beheld the Church in the latter days, that its numbers would be few even though it was over all the face of the earth. In other words, global reach but not numerically dominant. Pretty much describes how things are now, as we set up the infrastructure in preparation for the Second Coming of Christ, when the kingdom of God will indeed fill the earth like the stone cut out of the mountain without hands as foretold in Daniel’s prophecy. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

As much as I might wish that I had the voice of a trumpet and irresistible persuasion to bring every soul to Christ, even Alma the Younger, a great missionary, admitted, "I am a man, and do sin in my wish. 

I ought to be content with what the Lord has allotted unto me."  I've written on my blog before that, in terms of sheer numbers, Moroni was not a very good missionary.  He tried (unsuccessfully, alas) to exhort his totally-apostate, completely-degenerate nation to faithfulness.  He failed.  In light of that, there were only three things he could do:

1. Save his own skin
2. Stand as a witness to the tragic downfall of his people
3. Protect the records in his possession and abridge them for the benefit of future generations

Yet all of that having been said, the lives of how many then-untold millions have been blessed because he had the courage and faith to see to it that we got the Book of Mormon?  When we read Doctrine and Covenants 18, perhaps we tend to overemphasize the "how-great-shall-be-your-joy-if-ye-shall-bring-many-souls-unto-me" clause and to underemphasize the "how-great-shall-be-your-joy-if-ye-shall-bring-one-soul-unto-me" clause.

A single missionary's single baptism can make a great difference.  See https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/12/21/the-power-of-the-one/

 

Very insightful. 

Conditions today are not wholly unlike those in Moroni’s day when rampant godlessness hindered many from receiving things of the Spirit. 

Just in the last hour, I saw a tweet from a presidential candidate who dropped the F-bomb as he denigrated people of faith who expressed thoughts and prayers to those impacted by the most recent mass shootings in Texas. Made me wonder how much lower society will descend in my lifetime. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

46 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Someone claiming that someone else has had revelations is not evidence of actual revelation. Plenty of people claim that.

Agreed.

Quote

However, if we could actually see a revelation to read it (like Joseph and other biblical prophets) then that would quell a lot of the clamor.

I disagree. A document is, essentially, no different than an oral report. The only way to quell clamour is for those clamouring to seek for and obtain revelations of their own. As I have long maintained, I have yet to hear a person whose life is characterised by the the receipt of revelation worrying about whether the current prophets are also in receipt of revelation.

[juliann]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-nelson-brasilia-brazil-2019

I get the new Temples but what do you make of the "other announcements" 

Double the viewing audience.....

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Agreed.

I disagree. A document is, essentially, no different than an oral report. The only way to quell clamour is for those clamouring to seek for and obtain revelations of their own. As I have long maintained, I have yet to hear a person whose life is characterised by the the receipt of revelation worrying about whether the current prophets are also in receipt of revelation.

If a revelation contradicts someone’s political or social or cultural views, the clamor will be present, regardless of how directly stated or well documented the revelation is. 

By nature of their callings, prophets are destined to be unpopular to a certain degree due to the revelations from God they convey. It is their lot in life. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, randy said:

I'm not sure exactly where "we" took that fork in the road that caused us to think that ever increasing numbers equated to success in spreading and proclaiming the gospel.

I would say that the Church's own newsroom is partially responsible for that fork by publishing articles like this.

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I would say that the Church's own newsroom is partially responsible for that fork by publishing articles like this.

So in your opinion the Newsroom shouldn't have reported on the results of a study that 'is widely considered the most comprehensive assessment available of religious affiliation in the United States'?

[Thinking]

36 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So in your opinion the Newsroom shouldn't have reported on the results of a study that 'is widely considered the most comprehensive assessment available of religious affiliation in the United States'?

Articles. Plural. There are many more.

And countless non-published talks from various leaders (general and local) proclaiming the LDS Church as the fastest growing church in the world.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

Articles. Plural. There are many more.

Was the Glenmary Research Center's 2002 study wrong? Was it ever corrected? I note that the 2010 study is available here.

Quote

And countless non-published talks from various leaders (general and local) proclaiming the LDS Church as the fastest growing church in the world.

It's a bit difficult to know much about 'non-published talks'.

[Thinking]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Was the Glenmary Research Center's 2002 study wrong? Was it ever corrected? I note that the 2010 study is available here.

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of my post. I was responding to randy's comment.

4 hours ago, randy said:

I'm not sure exactly where "we" took that fork in the road that caused us to think that ever increasing numbers equated to success in spreading and proclaiming the gospel.

I didn't claim that the study was incorrect. I was simply pointing out that the Church was partially responsible for the focus on numbers.

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's a bit difficult to know much about 'non-published talks'.

I'm confident that most LDS have heard the "fastest growing church" claim many times from multiple sources.

 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I didn't claim that the study was incorrect. I was simply pointing out that the Church was partially responsible for the focus on numbers.

Oh, we positively love numbers! Each figure is a fellow human who has chosen to embrace the Restored Gospel. I went to a baptism yesterday just to join in the celebration of welcoming one more into the sweet fellowship of the Saints.

Quote

I'm confident that most LDS have heard the "fastest growing church" claim many times from multiple sources.

I don't share your confidence. I think the last time I heard anything like that was as a full-time missionary in the US the 90s. But it would seem that statements like that there and then were accurate according to the study you don't claim is incorrect, no?

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it goes without saying that members of the Twelve work so closely with the president of the Church, that when one of them, speaking for all, testifies that revelations have been coming to him, they themselves would have received personal revelations confirming the prophet’s revelations. 

And I said this on this board not long ago, but it bears repeating, that a prophet day in and day out in the course of leading the Church is exposed to a constant flow of revelation on matters great and small. I think we risk cutting ourselves off from divine guidance if we set conditions on what form a message will take before we deign to regard it as a revelation. 

Some of this flows from the types of terminology we apply to various forms of revelation.  If "revelation" is a generic term covering anything which could remotely be seen as inspired in any way, then it can be applied to anything by anybody.  Say, for example, a formidable secular leader of a business who makes a series of excellent business decisions which result in better sales and enhanced reputation.  His intuitive business decisions might even be figuratively characterized as "inspired," even though there is no religiosity involved in them.  On a day to day basis, even a religious leader who makes good decisions based on an intelligent assessment of church needs may be considered "inspired," when really all he did was to apply already tested and proven good principles.  My impression is that we are not a church which moves solely on an inspired basis.  A great deal is based on experience and standard procedures.  Being prayerful and mindful are certainly called for, but God does not hopefully have to intervene in every decision.  One hopes that we have learned a thing or two in the course of leadership of the Church.  One hopes that we are not so childlike that we have learned nothing and cannot be trusted to make decisions on our own.

Perhaps it is true that prophets, seers, and revelators are merely conduits through which God conducts His affairs on Earth.  If that is true 24/7, only those individuals themselves would be likely to know it.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, made it plain that a prophet is only a prophet when operating in the prophetic mode -- which is not all the time.  To think otherwise is to push the envelope of infallibility, which is very unwise.

[randy]

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

I would say that the Church's own newsroom is partially responsible for that fork by publishing articles like this.

Understood.  My point is this:  As has been said each "number" represents one of HF's children who has accepted the gospel, and that's wonderful.  But again, I do not equate increasing or decreasing "numbers" as being foundational to whether or not the Church is "successful" in it's Mission mandate to proclaim and teach the gospel to all the world.  By any standard, I believe it can be demonstrated that the Church is absolutely meeting that mandate by the Lord.   A person's personal choice of why they choose to accept or reject the gospel is another discussion.