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Guns at church policy changed

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

I appreciate your and Amulek's response and this comment is not judgmental because I honestly am not confident enough in this case about my own judgment, but since for me "common sense" is to not have guns around at this point, appealing to common sense in your argument doesn't make much sense to me.  :)

IOW, most people assume common sense is some knowledge/opinion held in common with other people.  I don't believe that is accurate in how we often use it.  Instead it is simply something we see as so obvious that we are certain if people understood things like we did, they would see it the same way.

And Randy, I am sorry if I pushed any buttons with my focus on suicide, if it came across like I thought you were actually ignoring risk.  I know my ability for perception of others is superficial at best through the limited interaction we have, it may look like I am making assumptions about internal, not yet expressed concepts, but I am generally not for the vast majority of posters here.

Calm...I so appreciate this!  Very much!  When I say speak of "common sense"..I speak of it in the sense of a person taking seriously their responsibility if they choose to carry which to me is 1) TRAINING   2) exercising common sense about where a person finds themselves, ie: Is there "really" a good reason to be out about town at 2am?   3)  Taking common sense precautions based upon your own lifes experiences ie: choosing not have a weapon at all,  or having the weapons locked safely away,  or having the weapon in a place of ready access if something were to happen (based upon who lives in the home..children etc).    I certainly make no judgement as to whether someone should or should not have a weapon in your home if anyone in that home is struggling with their mental health etc.  I can certainly support their decision not to.    I don't want you to think that you were not exercising common sense because your choice/feelings on this subject. I certainly DO understand your position!

Also, no buttons pushed regarding discussing suicide. It's a difficult subject to talk about, but one that is necessary at times.  I thank you for your thoughtfulness and wanting to make sure I understood. That means a lot to me!  Thank you!

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32 minutes ago, randy said:

don't want you to think that you were not exercising common sense because your choice/feelings on this subject. I certainly DO understand your position!

I have not felt the least criticism from you, which always makes the conversation more interesting for me.  People are sharing their philosophies rather than judgments, if that is clear.

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18 hours ago, Calm said:

But I can tell you from experience it is just not access to guns that have impact on thoughts of suicide. Realizing a gun is nearby even if I didn’t have access to it made my thoughts of suicide more anchored in reality. Fantasizing goes to a very different place, more active, less passive. My daughter says similar things, the guns being in the house increase her intrusive/obsessive thinking which for her trigger panic attacks and likely deepens her depression since much of it is center around feeling out of control of herself. 

I genuinely appreciate your thoughts and experiences on this issue - especially with respect to your family. It helps me appreciate where you (and likely many others) are coming from, at least to some degree. So, while the experience of having suicidal thoughts be impacted by one's being in proximity to a gun is, admittedly, foreign to me personally, I can sympathize with those who feel differently. 

 

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Such things probably seem distant to many, improbable for their family, yet getting assaulted by a gun seems realistic to them when the probability is way lower.  That is very hard for me to understand, feeling so vulnerable in the one case and invulnerable in the statistically more dangerous event.

I think it largely depends on how you are doing the calculus. If you are assuming one only needs a gun for an active shooter situation, then yeah - maybe that seems like a very low likelihood event. But what if you start expanding the risk pool to encompass other situations as well (e.g., robbery / armed robbery, burglary / home invasion, physical assault, domestic assault, rape / forcible sexual assault, etc.)? And let's not forget, you never know when the situation is gong to arise where you're going to need to shoot a coyote, right? That last one is actually rather pragmatic, depending on where you live. 

So, when you compound those potential risks together, how do they weigh up against the probability that a family member will, without any sort of warning, commit suicide with one of your firearms? I think that's the sort of question that everyone has to answer for themselves. And I agree that it's the sort of decision that should not be taken lightly. 

 

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I know I would never forgive myself for not having banned guns from the house if someone killed themselves in my home.  Thankfully my husband has chosen to keep them elsewhere. 

So you don't have to be around them, and your husband still gets to go to the range? Sounds like a win-win to me. :) 

 

Edited by Amulek
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6 hours ago, Amulek said:

So you don't have to be around them, and your husband still gets to go to the range? Sounds like a win-win to me. :) 

Yes, I am grateful he is okay with this. Guns are at this point entertainment for him (something to do with friends), so while inconvenient he is being reasonable about it (judging accurately that it means much more to my daughter and me not to have them around than for him to have them around).

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On 9/2/2019 at 12:53 PM, Calm said:

 

Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!"

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4 hours ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!"

Some very unstable disgruntled former members know who they are and might care enough to hurt them. 
For regular members. I look at the whole thing as the same as worrying about whether lightening is going to strike me. Sure it happens, but the odds are very much against it.
I will take some precautions but in the end I don't have much control over something that is so rare to happen. 
Still, I don't mind that there are police officers in my ward who do carry in church.  

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In the rural South, some police and sheriff's departments are allowing their deputies and officers to attend church services in uniform on Sunday mornings.

Quite the sight to see them standing armed in uniform at the back of the chapel.

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35 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

In the rural South, some police and sheriff's departments are allowing their deputies and officers to attend church services in uniform on Sunday mornings.

Quite the sight to see them standing armed in uniform at the back of the chapel.

That is awesome, I hope it starts a trend and all chapel attendees that are law enforcement can help prevent & protect! Does the no guns allowed in the LDS church, even include law enforcement??

Edited by Tacenda

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I would think the Bishops, High Council, and Stake Presidency would probably see eye to eye on encouraging it.

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Does the no guns allowed in the LDS church, even include law enforcement??

It explicitly allows for LEOs as cited in the opening posts.

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I've mentioned here how we have several police officers who attend our ward, including the Chief of police... they wear full uniform, including weapons... this morning one officer attended in uniform... and for the first time ever... ever... this included a bullet-proof vest...

GG

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I have never carried a weapon in Church, even before I retired, since I have never attended Church where I had jurisdictional duties. When I was not in uniform, I did not carry in any other Churches. When in uniform, I had no choice, but always begged forgiveness for being armed. This of course unless the call came from a Church.

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On 9/4/2019 at 1:29 PM, Vedrfolnyr said:

Here's the problem I have with the whole deal. My brother-in-law has been in church security for 20 years. He carries EVERYWHERE while on the job. Yes, they includes inside of the temples. Escorting any church leaders anywhere that he can legally carry. Obviously he can't carry while on a public flight etc. Why is my family not allowed the same protection as Nelson or Oaks? With nearly 19 years in the military so far I would imagine I have more range time than 99% of church security. You are much more likely to be shot by a deranged shooter at church than one of our dear leaders is to be shot at. Just ask Burt Miller from Fallon, Nevada, Kristie Ragsdale from Lehi, Utah or Bishop Clay Sanner of Visalia, CA. Now tell me the last time one of our dear leaders has been shot at. Yet they are building their own firearms training facility because they are in danger? No one outside of the church even knows who these leaders are much less cares enough to harm them. I for one am tired of the elitist "good for me but not for thee" coming from SLC. Carry on and "Carry On!"

Do you also think Presidential security from the Secret Service is unwarranted and that everyone should get s Secret Service detail?

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