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Guns at church policy changed


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On 8/26/2019 at 6:11 PM, Oliblish said:

I don't think we can make generalizations about all concealed carry permit holders.  I am sure plenty of them are responsible people, but some are kind of scary.   

I know a number of responsible gun owners that have permits.  But at a place I used to work I knew of two individuals with permits who made me very nervous.  I don't know what the requirements are to get a permit here in Utah, but I would like to see them tightened up a bit.

You do realize that the second amendment is a right, not a privilege, guaranteed by the constitution. In fact the 2nd A is the only right that is specific in saying don't infringe upon it.  " The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".  We literally have hundreds of laws "infringing" on the right to bear arms!

What kind of "tightening up" would you suggest?  More infringing?

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13 hours ago, randy said:

So you understand,  to Open Carry means to carry the firearm, HOLSTERED at ALL TIMES, unless....unless, that person feels that their life is in grave danger or eminate death, then..and only then are they lawfully able to draw their weapon in their defense.  In no circumstance does open carry allow the person to hold the weapon in their hands.  It must be holstered, or in the case of a long gun, strapped to the back/chest at all times.

Okay, thank you for that clarification.  What about rifles, though?  How does one legally Open Carry a rifle?

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Perhaps the best policy would be to have several active members who are armed in each ward.  Nobody knows who they are.  Sort of serve the same purpose as an air marshall.  This would offer reasonable protection for the members of the ward.  We don't need a bunch of members packing guns to church but having a few would help deter any nut out there.   

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14 hours ago, Amulek said:

Or to help him.

Yes that would be the #2 option of the 2 options available, then, wouldn't it, unless you felt like maybe you could run away from him.  He would either be a bad guy or a good guy and you likely wouldn't know he was a bad guy until he got ready to shoot some good people.

14 hours ago, Amulek said:

The overwhelming majority of people who lawfully carry are impeccable citizens who would only draw their weapon in a public place in order to defend themselves or others.

So you would just play the odds, then?  There is still a chance he could be a bad guy.  But yes of course maybe, just maybe, he might turn out to be a good guy.

14 hours ago, Amulek said:

Huh? I'm sorry, but this just does not compute. If someone is walking around, lawfully carrying a holstered side arm - not drawing it, not brandishing it, just having it on their person - there is no justifiable reason to shoot that person. Anyone who did something like this would be going to prison for the rest of their life.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have said someone would shoot me and simply said that people who did not know me would probably not be feeling comfortable seeing a man like me walking around with a gun, mostly because it is just a rare sight to see where I live.  It's a small town but it's not like an old west cowboy town where there are a lot of people walking around while they carry a gun.  And I think most people just do not feel very comfortable seeing people walking around with a gun. 

14 hours ago, Amulek said:

Where on earth do you live? Are people in your town really that paranoid about guns that they would slip into the very kind of farcical 'shoot first, ask questions later' tropes that they likely impute upon 'gun nuts?' 

I may have been a little bit melodramatic, using hyperbolic statements, but my point is that most people, at least where I live, do not feel comfortable seeing people they do not know, who are not wearing a law enforcement uniform, walking around with a gun.

Is it really any different where you live, for people who don't know you, who might see you walking around with a gun?  Where do you live?  In Texas?

I grew up in Texas but I live in the Pacific Northwest now, near Portland Oregon if you know where that is.

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

How does one legally Open Carry a rifle?

Lots of different ways actually. Most comfortably, strapped to your back with the muzzle pointing down.

Some people prefer to carry it with muzzle pointing upwards, but that's not nearly as practical if you live somewhere with lots of rain - nobody wants to collect water or other debris in their barrel, am-I-right. ;) 

In my state, pistols need to be kept in holsters, but there is no such requirement that rifles (or shotguns) be covered. So long as you are not displaying your firearm in a manner calculated to cause alarm you should be fine.

 

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Okay, thank you for that clarification.  What about rifles, though?  How does one legally Open Carry a rifle?

The rife must be strapped/slinged on their back or across their chest... NOT being held in a "ready position" in their hands.

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2 minutes ago, randy said:

The rife must be strapped/slinged on their back or across their chest... NOT being held in a "ready position" in their hands.

So if you saw a man walk into a chapel holding a rifle the way I described earlier, what would you do?  I'm imagining others with guns would be getting ready and into position to shoot the guy if necessary.  Or at least yell at him for holding his rifle improperly!

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes that would be the #2 option of the 2 options available, then, wouldn't it, unless you felt like maybe you could run away from him.  He would either be a bad guy or a good guy and you likely wouldn't know he was a bad guy until he got ready to shoot some good people.

So you would just play the odds, then?  There is still a chance he could be a bad guy.  But yes of course maybe, just maybe, he might turn out to be a good guy.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have said someone would shoot me and simply said that people who did not know me would probably not be feeling comfortable seeing a man like me walking around with a gun, mostly because it is just a rare sight to see where I live.  It's a small town but it's not like an old west cowboy town where there are a lot of people walking around while they carry a gun.  And I think most people just do not feel very comfortable seeing people walking around with a gun. 

I may have been a little bit melodramatic, using hyperbolic statements, but my point is that most people, at least where I live, do not feel comfortable seeing people they do not know, who are not wearing a law enforcement uniform, walking around with a gun.

Is it really any different where you live, for people who don't know you, who might see you walking around with a gun?  Where do you live?  In Texas?

I grew up in Texas but I live in the Pacific Northwest now, near Portland Oregon if you know where that is.

Ahab,  I appreciate that you acknowledge that your emotions may have taken a wee bit of control over your expressions. We all have done that a time or two on occasion.  I understand your position, respect it and acknowledge that some people have not had the exposure to guns, and seeing the 2nd Amendment being exercised.   Just know and try to remember this the next time you cross paths with someone who is carrying.  As has been said, the VAST VAST majority of people you see exercising their rights are good, decent and lawabiding fellow citizens, from whom you have nothing to fear.  In that moment, I would challenge and encourage you to approach them and start a conversation with them if the situation allows.  I believe you will find them to be courteous and respectful.

 

Edited by randy
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5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So if you saw a man walk into a chapel holding a rifle the way I described earlier, what would you do?  I'm imagining others with guns would be getting ready and into position to shoot the guy if necessary.  Or at least yell at him for holding his rifle improperly!

If I saw a person enter the Chapel with a rifle IN HIS HANDS, and obviously not in any Uniform that would immediately identify him as LEO etc, I would immediately take action.  I would be yelling, but not to him...I would be yelling for the members to get down and take cover.  When it comes to handgun/rifle protocols etc...that person who is entering the Chapel with a gun in the "ready" position should be considered an immediate threat because they're choosing to violate the number one rule of "open carry" and thus have chosen to identify themselves as a lethal threat.

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2 minutes ago, randy said:

Ahab,  I appreciate that you acknowledge that your emotions may have taken a wee bit of control over your expressions. We all have done that a time or two on occasion.  I understand your position, respect it and acknowledge that some people have not had the exposure to guns, and seeing the 2nd Amendment being exercised.   Just know and try to remember this the next time you cross paths with someone who is carrying.  As has been said, the VAST VAST majority of people you see exercising their rights and good, decent and lawabiding fellow citizens, from whom you have nothing to fear.  In that moment, I would challenge and encourage you to approach them and start a conversation with them if the situation allows.  I believe you will find them to be courteous and respectful.

 

I have a brother in law who likes guns and has taught his children how to use them, his son and his 4 daughters.  They're all pretty good shots, and all pretty nice people.  And my step mother is pretty good with a pistol too, and a nice person.

I just don't like guns. I did in the past, but I don't anymore.  Not my thing, anymore.  But if I had to I could use one and be efficient enough with it, either a pistol or a rifle.

My personal like or dislike is besides the fact that I think most people don't feel comfortable seeing people carrying a gun, though.  In my experience, most people don't like them, and as I said I grew up in Texas where a LOT of people do like them.  But I wouldn't say most.

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4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I have a brother in law who likes guns and has taught his children how to use them, his son and his 4 daughters.  They're all pretty good shots, and all pretty nice people.  And my step mother is pretty good with a pistol too, and a nice person.

I just don't like guns. I did in the past, but I don't anymore.  Not my thing, anymore.  But if I had to I could use one and be efficient enough with it, either a pistol or a rifle.

My personal like or dislike is besides the fact that I think most people don't feel comfortable seeing people carrying a gun, though.  In my experience, most people don't like them, and as I said I grew up in Texas where a LOT of people do like them.  But I wouldn't say most.

Understood...and I respect your position and feelings on this.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes that would be the #2 option of the 2 options available, then, wouldn't it, unless you felt like maybe you could run away from him.  He would either be a bad guy or a good guy and you likely wouldn't know he was a bad guy until he got ready to shoot some good people.

There's no way to know with absolute certainty whether or not any unknown person is a bad guy unless or until they give you reason to believe that is the case. And that's true regardless of whether they happen to be in possession of a firearm, pocketknife, or (dare I say it) adze. 

But that's nothing out of the ordinary - it's just kind of how life works for those of us who are not omniscient and cannot read minds. 

 

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So you would just play the odds, then? 

Again, to the extent that we are all incapable of predicting the future with certainty, we are all always 'just playing the odds.' 

When you go to work each day you are 'just playing the odds' that your employer is going to compensate you for your work. When my wife let the plumber into our house this morning she was 'just playing the odds' that he was really only going to repair our faucet and not sexually assault her instead. Etc., etc., etc.

 

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There is still a chance he could be a bad guy. 

Yes, it is trivially true that there is an unknown, possibly non-zero chance that he could be a bad guy. 

In practice though, the number of individuals who lawfully carry handguns and use them for nefarious ends is infinitesimally small. 

 

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But yes of course maybe, just maybe, he might turn out to be a good guy.

I think you have your probabilities inverted here. The 'maybe, just maybe' scenario is that he might turn out to be a bad guy. 

 

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I may have been a little bit melodramatic, using hyperbolic statements, but my point is that most people, at least where I live, do not feel comfortable seeing people they do not know, who are not wearing a law enforcement uniform, walking around with a gun.

I agree that many people feel uncomfortable around firearms. See my previous post to Calm for some of my thoughts on that.

 

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Is it really any different where you live, for people who don't know you, who might see you walking around with a gun?  Where do you live?  In Texas?

I grew up in Texas but I live in the Pacific Northwest now, near Portland Oregon if you know where that is.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the the Pacific Northwest. I served my mission in Seattle, and my wife is from that neck of the woods.

And yes, I was born, raised, and happen to currently live in Texas (a.k.a. Authentic Zion).

Things are a bit different here. We run into people open carrying from time to time, and it's no big deal.

In fact, I was at Kroger (grocery store) just the other day with my kids and one of them pointed out a gentleman who was carrying a full size pistol on his hip. It was shiny, silver, and looked to be a 1911, so I told my daughter she should go ask the man if it was a Kimber. She was too shy to go start up a conversation by herself, so we walked over together, said hi and chatted for a quick minute or two.

He was a really nice fellow. I wasn't exactly surprised - about him being nice or about me having correctly identified his handgun. ;) 

 

Edited by Amulek
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I have been seeing a few clarification follow-ups on this news at some news outlets that say:

"In a story Aug. 26, The Associated Press reported that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be sending the letter it sent to local leaders in Texas to leaders elsewhere about a new policy that prohibits lethal weapons in church. The church said it won’t send the same letter, but will notify local church leaders about the change in security measures."

I wonder what might be said differently to all other states?

 

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3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I have been seeing a few clarification follow-ups on this news at some news outlets that say:

"In a story Aug. 26, The Associated Press reported that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be sending the letter it sent to local leaders in Texas to leaders elsewhere about a new policy that prohibits lethal weapons in church. The church said it won’t send the same letter, but will notify local church leaders about the change in security measures."

I wonder what might be said differently to all other states?

If we're being honest, do states other than Texas really even matter? 

I mean, seriously, the best thing coming out of most other states is nothing more than a direct flight to DFW-International. ;) 

 

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1 hour ago, Amulek said:

If we're being honest, do states other than Texas really even matter? 

Not to a Texan!  Texas should be it's own country as far as a Texan is concerned.

 

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

I mean, seriously, the best thing coming out of most other states is nothing more than a direct flight to DFW-International. ;) 

The Pacific Northwest is much prettier than any place in Texas, as far as I am concerned.  Austin comes closest to how it looks here, and I like the mountains around El Paso, but most trees are bigger here than in Texas.

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You can probably tell by my user name that I might not like this change in policy.  I absolutely hate that men with body guards and security tell the rest of us we can't exercise our God given rights of self defense.  In this case I have heard everything from "I'm sure they were inspired to do this" to "I won't come to church anymore".  There is actual research on citizen involved shootings you can google that will answer your questions about the probability that an "untrained" citizen that chooses to engage an active shooter making things better or worse.  In every case they either kill the shooter or cause the shooter to flee.  And in no case has a "wild west shoot em up" occurred where one citizen shot another because they thought they were a "bad guy".

There's no way the church doesn't know this because they leaned into professional security people for advice on this I'm sure.  So the only reason they did this was for liability.  It's easier to absorb a tragic event where many are killed than to handle the negative press and backlash if a member fights back and anything goes wrong.  Much more liability without the policy.  Sad really.  No stats to back this up at all.  

In areas with the strictest gun laws (Chicago for many years, D.C., St. Louise, LA) Crime is out of control.  Poverty plays it's role but we also know that if a criminal knows his intended victim is unarmed they will be more brazen.  In England for example, You are far more likely to experience violent crime now than when it was still legal to own a firearm in that country. It is far more likely for home invasions to take place while the owners are home.  Our church has just declared publicly we are unarmed...that is just stupid from a tactical point of view.  Like placing a sign in your yard that you are against the ownership of guns and violence is wrong.  Between your house and your neighbors with no such sign or maybe a 2nd Amendment bumper sticker who will get robbed.

Carrying in church is no guarantee that an active shoot will be shot before he's killed but in every case when citizens step in the death toll is drastically less. 

Do a little research on youtube.  Watch some of Colion Noir's videos.  Maybe some John Stossell videos about gun control.  look up some stats from the FBI or CDC.  Don't just read the garabage that is being put out there via Bloombergs org.

Just shaking my head at this one.  Should have just stuck with state law and been done with it.

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just curious...

Anyone see tasers as a viable alternative? (I am not sure they qualify as lethal weapon, though they can cause cardiac arrest)  I know they aren't legal in many states.

They are a good alternative, but they do have some weaknesses, such as, the distance with a taser, one must be close up. Also with a shooter with his finger on the trigger, a taser could cause the shooter to hold down the trigger and not let go. This could cause even more shots being fired.

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2 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Also with a shooter with his finger on the trigger, a taser could cause the shooter to hold down the trigger and not let go. This could cause even more shots being fired.

Hadn't thought of that.  Definite drawback.

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41 minutes ago, Anijen said:

This could cause even more shots being fired.

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hadn't thought of that.  Definite drawback.

That would require the firearm to be fully automatic, not semi-automatic. A semi-auto only fires one round for every trigger pull. Fully auto firearms are very expensive ($20k) and require a special tax stamp to purchase. Getting close enough to a active shooter with a taser would be challenging.

Unfortunately our lives are deemed expendable by Salt Lake. I know GA's travel with armed security, but we could just become casualties for the greater good.

Edited by gurn
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So, I did a google search and this new policy was publicized nationally through numerous news outlets. I must say, our chapels being advertised as gun free zones is not making me feel safer. 

Since, in Utah, there has been a definite uptick in arson fires at LDS chapels this year, I’m not sure the publicity around this policy change is in the best interest of safety. There are people who are unstable or just don’t like us.

I’m grateful I have two official leo’s In my ward but I don’t think all wards are that fortunate.

 

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9 minutes ago, gurn said:

Unfortunately our lives are deem expendable by Salt Lake. I know GA's travel with armed security, but we could just become casualties for the greater good.

You know this? I know two church security persons, both work unarmed. This is news to me.

I know that at times people are asked to pick up the brethren when they fly into town and take them either to a hotel or often to the Stake Presidents home where they stay. I never heard of armed security traveling with them.

Edited by Anijen
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14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So, I did a google search and this new policy was publicized nationally through numerous news outlets. I must say, our chapels being advertised as gun free zones is not making me feel safer. 

Since, in Utah, there has been a definite uptick in arson fires at LDS chapels this year, I’m not sure the publicity around this policy change is in the best interest of safety. There are people who are unstable or just don’t like us.

I’m grateful I have two official leo’s In my ward but I don’t think all wards are that fortunate.

 

It wasn't a good idea to put that out to the nation that we're gun free, awful. 

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