SL Tribune Does It Again

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Maybe they are telling the truth, and the bishop feels inspired to sign the recommend. If drinking coffee is somebody's biggest sin, I'd think they are among the most holy of Saints.

It seems like such an easy thing to do.  Just don't drink coffee.  If you can't do the easy things...

[Analytics]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

It seems like such an easy thing to do.  Just don't drink coffee.  If you can't do the easy things...

I suppose it depends upon somebody's unique situation. Coffee's anti-depressant properties are well established. If somebody is a more loving and serving human being if they have their cup of coffee in the morning, it's hard for me to imagine God requiring them to take Prozac instead.

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Maybe they are telling the truth, and the bishop feels inspired to sign the recommend. If drinking coffee is somebody's biggest sin, I'd think they are among the most holy of Saints.

Those doing “bigger” sins probably wouldn’t be eligible either. 

Temple recommend requirements are what they are, and most people know them before they seek an interview. 

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

It seems like such an easy thing to do.  Just don't drink coffee.  If you can't do the easy things...

The story is told of a woman who said to her bishop, “Are you going to let a little thing like coffee keep me out of the temple?” 

He replied, “Are you?”

 

[rodheadlee]

20 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

What is the 'group W bench'?

We have a number of smokers in our ward who actively attend church. I'm happy to sit next to any of them, and often do. I only struggle if the smell of tobacco has reached the stage where it makes me swoon, which sometimes is the case. 

The group W bench is from the Movie/ album  of Alice's Restaurant. It's the bench for weirdos at the draft board during the  Vietnam war era.

Edited August 26, 2019 by rodheadlee

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Those doing “bigger” sins probably wouldn’t be eligible either. 

Temple recommend requirements are what they are, and most people know them before they seek an interview. 

That's between the member and the bishop, isn't it?

[Scott Lloyd]

51 minutes ago, Analytics said:

That's between the member and the bishop, isn't it?

I’ve never been a bishop, but I don’t think a bishop gets to discard clear cut requirements just because he feels sorry for the member. And bear in mind it’s not just his decision. It has to be ratified by the stake president or one of his counselors as well. I think it would be a rare thing indeed for two priesthood leaders to knowingly let a coffee drinker slip through the process. I think you are doing some fantasizing here. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Analytics]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve never been a bishop, but I don’t think a bishop gets to discard clear cut requirements just because he feels sorry for the member. And beat in mind it’s not just his decision. It has to be ratified by the stake president or one of his counselors as well. I think it would be a rare thing indeed for two priesthood leaders to knowingly let a coffee drinker slip through the process. I think you are doing fantasizing here. 

The only reason I'm commenting on this issue is my maternal grandparents were coffee-drinking temple-recommend holders for about 40 years. They were among the most saintly members you could imagine, and they were totally at peace with the apparent incongruency between their morning beverage and their otherwise Mormon lifestyle. When I was little, I asked them why they drank coffee. My grandmother said, "I think Heavenly Father cares more about what comes out of our mouths than what goes in it, don't you?" That didn't really answer the question, but it did put coffee drinking into a broader perspective. I'd like to think that they were honest in their temple recommend interviews, and that their priesthood leaders were a little more like Jesus and less like Pharisees when it comes to worthiness issues. Or maybe it was a California Mormon thing. Granted, maybe they just lied to the bishop and the stake president, but that raises the question about what kinds of sins the bishop and stake president were guilty of not to have the spirit of discernment when it comes to keeping the temple clean of such people.

Those are my thoughts. YMMV.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The only reason I'm commenting on this issue is my maternal grandparents were coffee-drinking temple-recommend holders for about 40 years. They were among the most saintly members you could imagine, and they were totally at peace with the apparent incongruency between their morning beverage and their otherwise Mormon lifestyle. When I was little, I asked them why they drank coffee. My grandmother said, "I think Heavenly Father cares more about what comes out of our mouths than what goes in it, don't you?" That didn't really answer the question, but it did put coffee drinking into a broader perspective. I'd like to think that they were honest in their temple recommend interviews, and that their priesthood leaders were a little more like Jesus and less like Pharisees when it comes to worthiness issues. Or maybe it was a California Mormon thing. Granted, maybe they just lied to the bishop and the stake president, but that raises the question about what kinds of sins the bishop and stake president were guilty of not to have the spirit of discernment when it comes to keeping the temple clean of such people.

Those are my thoughts. YMMV.

My father, who I’m guessing was a contemporary of your grandparents, would tell me of how the Church under President Heber J. Grant tightened up its enforcement of Word of Wisdom requirements. It could be that your grandparents lived mostly during that period of looser enforcement. But I think it unrealistic to compare circumstances in the early 20th Century with those confronting Church members in their 20s and 30s in the present era. If we have entered a new era in which it is common for priesthood leaders to let people slide by in violation of the Word of Wisdom and still hold a temple recommend, that is news to me. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

The group W bench is from the Movie/ album  of Alice's Restaurant. It's the bench for weirdos at the draft board during the  Vietnam war era.

Oh, mate. You're in trouble if the 'weirdos' are moving away from you!

But seriously, we're all a bunch of weirdos simply by believing what we do. We had an Elder in our ward some years ago who came to MCM and told me he'd made a terrible mistake by inviting someone to church. I asked him why that was a mistake, and he said that the man he'd invited was a bit 'complicated'. I asked him why that was a problem, and he said the bishop in his previous ward had told him not to invite complicated people to church.

I literally laughed out loud. 'Elder, how many people do you think we would have in sacrament meeting each week if only the uncomplicated people showed up? Certainly not our bishop, or me, or anyone else I can think of!'

So I picked this man up for church the following Sunday. He was indeed 'complicated'. So much so that I sent a text to our bishop after we arrived warning him that we might have an 'incident' at some point. He texted back that we'd handle that if needed. It wasn't needed. The following Sunday, as I was dropping this man home, he got very agitated in the car, and I thought for a bit that he might just kill me and steal my car. A wave of joy and peace accompanied that thought. What a story that would give people to tell!

This man only came to church about four or five weeks and then told the Elders to shove off. Six months later, he was back. He saw both our Sisters and our Elders on the bus on two consecutive days and took it as a sign. It took him 18 months to clean up his life enough to qualify for baptism. Of all the substances he'd been using and abusing for 30 years, tobacco was the hardest for him to give up, and he hasn't been perfect at leaving it alone, to be honest. But I picked him up for church again this past Sunday, and afterward we stopped by to visit our emeritus stake patriarch in hospital. He and his wife basically adopted this man as their own, and he always sits with them when they're able to be at church.

I also spent many months earlier this year visiting this same man in the mental ward at the hospital. He's still complicated, as are nearly all Saints, but we just love him. When a tribunal hearing was convened before he was placed on a psychiatric treatment order around February, three ward members attended and spoke on his behalf. The chair of the tribunal said she'd never before seen such community support. What a shame for all the others!

As the Prophet said, 'I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good? I don't care what a man's character is; if he's my friend—a true friend, I will be a friend to him, and preach the Gospel of salvation to him, and give him good counsel, helping him out of his difficulties'.

That has been my exact experience in the Church of Jesus Christ.

[let’s roll]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Oh, mate. You're in trouble if the 'weirdos' are moving away from you!

But seriously, we're all a bunch of weirdos simply by believing what we do. We had an Elder in our ward some years ago who came to MCM and told me he'd made a terrible mistake by inviting someone to church. I asked him why that was a mistake, and he said that the man he'd invited was a bit 'complicated'. I asked him why that was a problem, and he said the bishop in his previous ward had told him not to invite complicated people to church.

I literally laughed out loud. 'Elder, how many people do you think we would have in sacrament meeting each week if only the uncomplicated people showed up? Certainly not our bishop, or me, or anyone else I can think of!'

So I picked this man up for church the following Sunday. He was indeed 'complicated'. So much so that I sent a text to our bishop after we arrived warning him that we might have an 'incident' at some point. He texted back that we'd handle that if needed. It wasn't needed. The following Sunday, as I was dropping this man home, he got very agitated in the car, and I thought for a bit that he might just kill me and steal my car. A wave of joy and peace accompanied that thought. What a story that would give people to tell!

This man only came to church about four or five weeks and then told the Elders to shove off. Six months later, he was back. He saw both our Sisters and our Elders on the bus on two consecutive days and took it as a sign. It took him 18 months to clean up his life enough to qualify for baptism. Of all the substances he'd been using and abusing for 30 years, tobacco was the hardest for him to give up, and he hasn't been perfect at leaving it alone, to be honest. But I picked him up for church again this past Sunday, and afterward we stopped by to visit our emeritus stake patriarch in hospital. He and his wife basically adopted this man as their own, and he always sits with them when they're able to be at church.

I also spent many months earlier this year visiting this same man in the mental ward at the hospital. He's still complicated, as are nearly all Saints, but we just love him. When a tribunal hearing was convened before he was placed on a psychiatric treatment order around February, three ward members attended and spoke on his behalf. The chair of the tribunal said she'd never before seen such community support. What a shame for all the others!

As the Prophet said, 'I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good? I don't care what a man's character is; if he's my friend—a true friend, I will be a friend to him, and preach the Gospel of salvation to him, and give him good counsel, helping him out of his difficulties'.

That has been my exact experience in the Church of Jesus Christ.

Hamba, I aspire to be wherever you are in the eternities as I am confident that wherever you are you will make that place heavenly for those around you.

Godspeed to you.

[Hamba Tuhan]

50 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Hamba, I aspire to be wherever you are in the eternities as I am confident that wherever you are you will make that place heavenly for those around you.

Mate, the covenants that bind us to Christ bind us to one another as well. We're all in this together.

Isn't it fun to get to assist God in being heaven-makers right here and right now? And to have been given the tools and knowledge that facilitate that? I love it!

Many thanks for the kind words. 

[2BizE]

I usually respond to the temple recommend question on the WoW stating that I do not follow it.  And for some reason they are fine with it.

I explain that I do not eat meat sparingly as part of my Keto diet and that I do not drink beer as the WoW proclaims that we should drink mild beverages of barley.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I usually respond to the temple recommend question on the WoW stating that I do not follow it.  And for some reason they are fine with it.

We've actually had several who answer that way and then discuss it.  I have seen a few get recommends who drink tea or coffee and even one elderly, newly baptized lady go to the temple who continued drinking a glass of red wine every evening.  I have not been personally involved in any of those and I did raise my eyebrows and ask about it.  The response I got was that it was between her and the stake president and he felt she was worthy to go to the temple.  As far as I know, she is still active and still has her wine every night.

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I usually respond to the temple recommend question on the WoW stating that I do not follow it.  And for some reason they are fine with it.

I explain that I do not eat meat sparingly as part of my Keto diet and that I do not drink beer as the WoW proclaims that we should drink mild beverages of barley.

Why would you want to be a problem when you know fully well what the priesthood leader means when asking the question?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why would you want to be a problem when you know fully well what the priesthood leader means when asking the question?

I've been a bishopric counsellor twice. I would have appreciated such a clever response and would have laughed along with it.

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've been a bishopric counsellor twice. I would have appreciated such a clever response and would have laughed along with it.

I guess it's one of those you-had-to-have-been-there kinds of things.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I guess it's one of those you-had-to-have-been-there kinds of things.

Perhaps. I spent most of my adult life either studying at or working for a university, often with university-affiliated Church leaders. So when they asked me if I affiliated with any people or organisations opposed to Church teachings, I always used to ask, 'You mean other than the university, right?' That always generated a laugh.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Perhaps. I spent most of my adult life either studying at or working for a university, often with university-affiliated Church leaders. So when they asked me if I affiliated with any people or organisations opposed to Church teachings, I always used to ask, 'You mean other than the university, right?' That always generated a laugh.

I totally get the humor in that. I would have laughed appreciatively myself.

What I don’t get so much is deliberately answering no on a temple recommend interview question because you view the Church as being wrong or inconsistent in how it applies its doctrine or teachings or scripture and you’re trying to make a statement about it to some hapless bishopric counselor trying to earnestly fulfill his calling in the moment rather than argue — which is how the prior comment came across to me. I don’t believe a temple recommend interview is an appropriate setting to air one’s grievances about this or that doctrinal point.

But perhaps I did misunderstand. 

[smac97]

On 8/26/2019 at 5:29 PM, Analytics said:

Quote

Those doing “bigger” sins probably wouldn’t be eligible either. 

Temple recommend requirements are what they are, and most people know them before they seek an interview. 

That's between the member and the bishop, isn't it?

I think bishops have some measure of flexibility in temple recommend interviews.  For example, the duration of a person's compliance with the Word of Wisdom or the Law of Tithing are items probably left to the discretion of the bishop and the stake president.

However, I think that discretion is not unlimited, nor can it be used to contravene the guidelines given by those in authority.

Q. "Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"
A. "According to my interpretation of it, yes."
Q. "Okay.  What is your interpretation of it?"
A. "Beer, coffee, vaping and marijuana are all okay in my book."
Q. "Well, okay then!  Let's move on to the next question..."

I just can't imagine something like that passing muster.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

On 8/25/2019 at 12:00 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, I’m puzzled by this as well. 

Is Robert telling us there will be family units headed by homosexuals in the eternities and that to deny it is a lie?

The people I cited as lying to us were assuring us that everything is set in stone in this life, as though nothing happens in the hereafter.  When we arise incorruptible, with new and glorious bodies, I expect that a full millennium of proxy temple work will have already taken place, crucial choices made on the  other side, and a final judgment having been made by perfect beings.  Why that must necessarily include homosexuality seems odd to me simply based on physiological design.

I am puzzled that nonsense claims are allowed just go by as though they are not problematic.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The people I cited as lying to us were assuring us that everything is set in stone in this life, as though nothing happens in the hereafter.  When we arise incorruptible, with new and glorious bodies, I expect that a full millennium of proxy temple work will have already taken place, crucial choices made on the  other side, and a final judgment having been made by perfect beings.  Why that must necessarily include homosexuality seems odd to me simply based on physiological design.

I am puzzled that nonsense claims are allowed just go by as though they are not problematic.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I agree, of course. 

[JulieM]

On 8/27/2019 at 7:28 AM, ALarson said:

We've actually had several who answer that way and then discuss it.  I have seen a few get recommends who drink tea or coffee and even one elderly, newly baptized lady go to the temple who continued drinking a glass of red wine every evening.  I have not been personally involved in any of those and I did raise my eyebrows and ask about it.  The response I got was that it was between her and the stake president and he felt she was worthy to go to the temple.  As far as I know, she is still active and still has her wine every night.

Huh.  We also have a fairly recent convert in our ward (a husband of a sister who is long time member and who has prayed for years he’d convert), who just went to the temple last month but seems to be allowed to still have his morning coffee.  It raised eyebrows when he was baptized and now many are surprised he got a temple recommend.  Nothing malicious, just more curious because we all just adore him and celebrated him going to the temple.  It does seem that exceptions are made sometimes though? 

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Huh.  We also have a fairly recent convert in our ward (a husband of a sister who is long time member and who has prayed for years he’d convert), who just went to the temple last month but seems to be allowed to still have his morning coffee.  It raised eyebrows when he was baptized and now many are surprised he got a temple recommend.  Nothing malicious, just more curious because we all just adore him and celebrated him going to the temple.  It does seem that exceptions are made sometimes though? 

My dad was a huge coffee drinker. He was sealed to my mom before I was born. When I was married in the temple, he was only able to renew his recommend if he drank caffeine free coffee. So that's what he did in order to get it renewed. Of course he went right back to regular coffee soon after. 

But I always think it funny that the caffeine now isn't what the problem is. But according to the bishop that was how he helped my dad get a recommend. I guess it was lucky our bishop did that for my dad, to have my dad at my sealing! Too bad a plain ole cup of joe could stop a man from being at his daughter's wedding.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My dad was a huge coffee drinker. He was sealed to my mom before I was born. When I was married in the temple, he was only able to renew his recommend if he drank caffeine free coffee. So that's what he did in order to get it renewed. Of course he went right back to regular coffee soon after. 

But I always think it funny that the caffeine now isn't what the problem is. But according to the bishop that was how he helped my dad get a recommend. I guess it was lucky our bishop did that for my dad, to have my dad at my sealing! Too bad a plain ole cup of joe could stop a man from being at his daughter's wedding.

Too bad a man would let it.