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John Gee: "The Joseph Smith Papers Project Stumbles"

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Would Ritner be concerned if he became aware of Gee's apologetic writings before he got his PHd.? If his student is publishing material on the BOA which in the eyes of many other Egyptologists is dead wrong would that not affect his reputation as a member of the committee granting him the PHd. 

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27 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

Would Ritner be concerned if he became aware of Gee's apologetic writings before he got his PHd.? If his student is publishing material on the BOA which in the eyes of many other Egyptologists is dead wrong would that not affect his reputation as a member of the committee granting him the PHd. 

That could be a possibility.  Ritner is probably the best source on his reasoning if he didn't detail it privately to Gee and then it might still have been misunderstood by Gee.  While there are reasons to doubt people's self description/analysis, probably the people themselves are still best source of actual thought process unless obvious reasonings for lying or there is evidence of mental disturbance.  I would include unrelated comments that might indicate bias as well as specific to the reasoning explanations from the individual.

Add-on:  I have known religious post graduate students (not just Saints) who have expressed the need to keep their mouth shut until after they get their degree because they have been told by faculty over them that the professor is looking for any excuse to boot them because they are religious (mostly from psych grad students), so imo it is not an uncommon situation.  I assume the same problem exists for agnostics/atheists at religious schools; some professors aren't able to distance themselves from their own prejudices or see them even as bias.

Edited by Calm
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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

That could be a possibility.  Ritner is probably the best source on his reasoning if he didn't detail it privately to Gee and then it might still have been misunderstood by Gee....

I have no idea about their private conversations.  But years back,  someone posted, what they claimed was Dr. Ritner's response to repeated statements by Dr. Gee and Dr. Peterson that Gee had Dr. Ritner removed from his committee, he mentioned that he was concerned about his name being associated with Gee's apologetic output.  He also called their repeated posts regarding the change of chairs as false allegations. I'm not aware of Dr. Gee or Dr. Peterson publicly making those allegations in the years since that response. 

 

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14 minutes ago, cacheman said:

I have no idea about their private conversations.  But years back,  someone posted, what they claimed was Dr. Ritner's response to repeated statements by Dr. Gee and Dr. Peterson that Gee had Dr. Ritner removed from his committee, he mentioned that he was concerned about his name being associated with Gee's apologetic output.  He also called their repeated posts regarding the change of chairs as false allegations. I'm not aware of Dr. Gee or Dr. Peterson publicly making those allegations in the years since that response. 

 

Gee was publishing religiously oriented work prior to working with Ritner, so it would be a logical concern from his POV, imo.  If Ritner had his own prejudices on top of that...(which given his later behaviour it seems like it to me), the two would be highly motivating, imo.

Given prejudices of professors, even comments or beliefs unrelated at all to their field affect how students and other professors are viewed.  One fellow professor claimed my husband wasn't able to fairly work with the female staff because he was Mormon (business school, he teaches entrepreneurship).  Apparently she was believed because an offered post was taken back.  The female staff wrote a group letter to the administrator involved supporting my husband, describing him as one of the most respectful professors they had worked with (privately I was told he was the best they ever had as he treated them as equals while the prof who libeled him treated the women staff like second class citizens, her personal servants; they were ticked about the attack on my husband).

Edited by Calm

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Would BYU employ a biology professor if he or she has numerous publications in Creation Science Journals ?

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12 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

Would BYU employ a biology professor if he or she has numerous publications in Creation Science Journals ?

If the question is to me, I have no clue (I am not familiar with the hiring practices of .BYU except for the fact that certain administrators were rotten about getting back in a timely manner when exchanging letters of interest, husband ended up at UVU probably 3 or 5 months  after UVU first expressing interest; granted they were under time pressure needed Ph.Ds to upgrade to a university), but I would hope they would at least look at the articles themselves rather than just dismiss based on the publication.

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If they did hire that person they would be hiring someone who questioned carbon dating and tree rings for determining age

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12 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

If they did hire that person they would be hiring someone who questioned carbon dating and tree rings for determining age

Not necessarily, there might be other reasons to publish in a creationist journal just as there might be reasons for a theist to get published in an atheism slanted magazine.  I would expect a lot of caution and questioning of their actual position even if there wasn't any red flags sciencewise and I think the probability would be low given what I have seen in such journals.  But it is what articles they actually wrote and what they say is their beliefs that should matter most imo and that should be where they go to see, not making assumptions imo.  

The person would have to have a good reputation outside the creationist journals, of course.  If they were solely publishing in those, just the quality of the publications lowers the significance of publishing.  I am not suggesting those publications should count towards getting him hired as they are not professional journals.  It matters where you publish in terms of what publications count for in salary improvements as well as reputation, competition with other professors for limited jobs, and just basic qualifications. I am assuming this person meets the qualifications for hiring in all other ways...perhaps you are assuming that is impossible.

Edited by Calm

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This is a point by point response to the Gospel Topics Essay on the Book of Abraham

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LogowrocK8t2X9R-oXAUyte2Dg654Kjt40qOhleGrdc/edit

 

Why did Smith take so long to produce the book to be eventually published in the Times and Seasons?  It gave him plenty of time to research Josephus  and Book of Jasher and Clarke's Bible comments. 

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On 9/7/2019 at 2:37 PM, aussieguy55 said:

This is a point by point response to the Gospel Topics Essay on the Book of Abraham

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LogowrocK8t2X9R-oXAUyte2Dg654Kjt40qOhleGrdc/edit

 

Why did Smith take so long to produce the book to be eventually published in the Times and Seasons?  It gave him plenty of time to research Josephus  and Book of Jasher and Clarke's Bible comments. 

You posted this before under a different link.  However, it was met w/a resounding silence, maybe loaded with overwhelming sangfroid.  I find this puzzling.  To me, Kellan's article was devastating, at least on first uncritical glance.  Maybe most of you folks have processed all of this negative assessment regarding JS's Book of Abraham, so nothing new or to see here.  I don't know.

Anyone care  to respond as to just how they reconcile Smith's apparent 'cobbling together' of the Book of Abraham vs. his coming up with the Book of Mormon, witnessed by multiple people, both physically and via heavy-duty spiritual manifestations?

I've been only mildly interested in the BoA questions, naively thinking Nibley probably handled it already . . . or at least had made a good start on it; and superficially thought a longer, but missing scroll was the answer.

 

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How much evidence is there that Abraham even ever existed?  The use of camels is considered an anachronism. I  saw an apologetic book on this area of the Bible whose author used that catch phase  ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,"  The author suggested that originally it was "donkeys" that Abraham used but it was not considered right that the patriarch should be riding a donkey. As well as the problem with camels  Finkelstein writes "an even more telling detail  the camel caravan carryig "gum balm and myrrh" in the Joseph story  reveals an obvious familiarity with the main products of the lucrative Arabian trade that flourished under the supervision of the Assyrian empire in the eighth- seventh centuries B.C.E. " p.37.

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33 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

How much evidence is there that Abraham even ever existed?  The use of camels is considered an anachronism. I  saw an apologetic book on this area of the Bible whose author used that catch phase  ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,"  The author suggested that originally it was "donkeys" that Abraham used but it was not considered right that the patriarch should be riding a donkey. As well as the problem with camels  Finkelstein writes "an even more telling detail  the camel caravan carryig "gum balm and myrrh" in the Joseph story  reveals an obvious familiarity with the main products of the lucrative Arabian trade that flourished under the supervision of the Assyrian empire in the eighth- seventh centuries B.C.E. " p.37.

Interesting problem I'd never thought of before.  The incense trade was apparently flourishing beginning from about 6,000 years BP.  Hard to believe camels weren't being used in that trade for most of this time.  They're all over the place and used for food and milk through much of southern Arabia, Oman/Yemen; and are a prime currency of ownership for many of the citizens of these countries.  Even more are found in Somalia.

What are we talking about for Joseph?  1600 to 1800 yrs BC?  My intuitive guess is they've been around and domesticated, a long, long time.  Certainly Lehi had them.  I don't quite buy the 1200 BC domestication advent.

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If the revelation  approach was adopted what does one do with the interpretations of the facsimiles?Everything is changing so much that apologetic writings are becoming redundant.

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On 9/8/2019 at 10:44 PM, blarsen said:

"You posted this before under a different link"?  " . . a different link."?   I'm either losing it or need to get to bed  earlier.

 

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Here's a podcast where a fellow named Ed Goble (related to Clark?) is being interviewed on his views of JS's Egyptian 'Alphabet' located here:  https://pleaseleaveamessage.simplecast.com/episodes/37  and which may be of interest to some of you here.  He gives further explication of his views here:  https://egyptianalphabetandgrammar.blogspot.com/

I'm just getting interested again in this whole Book of Abraham topic, and have no point of view on Goble's information . . . yet.

Still surprised that no one has replied to my questions about the Kelan article, etc.  There seems to be a 'collective conscious' to this board that I don't quite understand yet.

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4 hours ago, blarsen said:

Here's a podcast where a fellow named Ed Goble (related to Clark?) is being interviewed on his views of JS's Egyptian 'Alphabet' located here:  https://pleaseleaveamessage.simplecast.com/episodes/37  and which may be of interest to some of you here.  He gives further explication of his views here:  https://egyptianalphabetandgrammar.blogspot.com/

I'm just getting interested again in this whole Book of Abraham topic, and have no point of view on Goble's information . . . yet.

Still surprised that no one has replied to my questions about the Kelan article, etc.  There seems to be a 'collective conscious' to this board that I don't quite understand yet.

Clark would likely have been the one to respond at this time in the board's evolution and thinking of him answering was leading me to avoid the topic actually.  

Iirc, Clark said once they weren't related as far as he knew...though it might have been Ed.  He posts here every now and then and puts up links to his material.

I think the majority of posters don't feel educated enough in the area to comment on it, though there were some in the past who focused on it.  I may be projecting though.  I have been following the various arguments off and on since I got into online discussions, but still not sure if I got the details down well enough not to draw false conclusions (for example, discussion of timelines frustrate me because I need to constantly refer to written ones to keep it all straight), so I haven't even looked at the article for now (most of the time I would, right now I don't want to invest the time and effort to ensure I understand, just too mentally tired).

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There seems to be so much internal conflict and debate over the Book of Abraham. Hauglid agreed with some of the work done by Dan Vogel. Blake Ostler has some negative comment about Vogel and others on  Faith Promoting Rumor. What surprised me was some of the potty language.   . I expected a blast against the paper by Kelan. He attends church with his wife. He said  "I'm nobody of any significance and I make no personal claims of authority or scholarship; I just thought a good way to illustrate the problems with the Book of Abraham would be to insert my notes directly into the text of the essay to underscore how fundamentally deceptive even the most official apologetics can be."

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On 9/9/2019 at 1:16 AM, aussieguy55 said:
Noam Mizrahi seems to be suggesting that the introduction of domesticated camels came late to the Canaan region, not necessarily to Egypt or the southern parts of Arabia.  Though it does seem that if they were present for transport earlier in these areas, the use would rapidly spread to the Land of Canaan.
 
Isn't the 3rd letter of the modern Hebrew alphabet derived from or cognate w/our word for camel?  I.e., gee'mel?  Does this go back to proto-Hebrew writing, and are there any examples of proto-Hebrew that are earlier than the 10 Century BCE?
 
From an LDS position, with our awareness of Lehi/Nephi and his brethren being up to speed with Egyptian writing of some sort, and with Moses coming from the court of a Pharaoh, it doesn't make much sense to me that they would not have committed the stories of Abraham, etc., to writing fairly early, using Egyptian if nothing else, or the early Hyksos/Phoenician alphabet.
 
 
 
 
Edited by blarsen

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