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MustardSeed

Callings given to imperfect human beings

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On 8/29/2019 at 2:10 PM, Meadowchik said:

Shakespeare, Schmakespeare... If this is my only life, it is still mine. It matters to me, and I can make it matter for good for others, too. There is enormous potential for meaning in life itself.

What? You don't like Shakespeare?  One of the greatest playwrights and writers of the English language?  Even Klingons admire him!  🙂 

I know a few atheists who actually seem to revel in the idea that this is all there is.  Whatever floats one's boat, I guess.

But while you're making of this life what you want, and trying to make it good for others as well (as I seek to do as well), keep in mind that it doesn't really matter.  In the Heat Death of the Universe neither you nor I matter at all. And there is no meaning whatsoever, whatever we might think.

Unless God lives and really is Our Father.

 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

What? You don't like Shakespeare?  One of the greatest playwrights and writers of the English language?  Even Klingons admire him!  🙂 

I know a few atheists who actually seem to revel in the idea that this is all there is.  Whatever floats one's boat, I guess.

But while you're making of this life what you want, and trying to make it good for others as well (as I seek to do as well), keep in mind that it doesn't really matter.  In the Heat Death of the Universe neither you nor I matter at all. And there is no meaning whatsoever, whatever we might think.

Unless God lives and really is Our Father.

 

I enjoy Shakespeare, but Shakespeare's writings are not omniscient.

So, if there is no God, and it doesn't matter, then believing in God won't change that. Perhaps the atheists who make meaning anyway, who strive for goodness, even if it is a temporary meaning that will vanish are the most faithful of us all ;)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I enjoy Shakespeare, but Shakespeare's writings are not omniscient.

The beauty of the Bard is not knowledge, but insight into the human condition.  There's a reason why so much of Shakespeare's writings in his plays and sonnets have been taken up into the language.  And most people aren't even aware that they're spouting Shakespeare when they use those famous lines.

  • ‘Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.’ (Twelfth Night Act 2, Scene 5)
  • ‘Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.’ (Julius Caesar Act 2, Scene 2)
  • ‘If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?’ (The Merchant of Venice Act 3, Scene 1)
  • ‘What’s in a name? A rose by any name would smell as sweet.’ (Romeo and Juliet Act 2, Scene 2)
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So, if there is no God, and it doesn't matter, then believing in God won't change that.

No, but it might make me happier than if I thought this was all there was.  And if I were wrong, I'd never know.  A corollary to Pascal's Wager.

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Perhaps the atheists who make meaning anyway, who strive for goodness, even if it is a temporary meaning that will vanish are the most faithful of us all ;)

In a sense, yes. To do good for goodness' sake alone is the highest virtue.

Edited by Stargazer
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7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The beauty of the Bard is not knowledge, but insight into the human condition.  There's a reason why so much of Shakespeare's writings in his plays and sonnets have been taken up into the language.  And most people aren't even aware that they're spouting Shakespeare when they use those famous lines.

  • ‘Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.’ (Twelfth Night Act 2, Scene 5)
  • ‘Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.’ (Julius Caesar Act 2, Scene 2)
  • ‘If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?’ (The Merchant of Venice Act 3, Scene 1)
  • ‘What’s in a name? A rose by any name would smell as sweet.’ (Romeo and Juliet Act 2, Scene 2)

No, but it might make me happier than if I thought this was all there was.  And if I were wrong, I'd never know.  A corollary to Pascal's Wager.

In a sense, yes. To do good for goodness' sake alone is the highest virtue.

What is good? What is virtue?

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Posted (edited)
On 8/27/2019 at 5:24 PM, mfbukowski said:

But who is to judge if it WAS "institutional harm"?

Judging someone's repentance is not up to me, and frankly I have seen NO "institutional harm" proven in the church's history either.

Proving such a vague concept as "institutional harm" and doing so while people thought they were doing the right thing is just plain problematic logically.   What objective standard is possible for such a notion?

And if it happened how could WE know IF the individual intentionally sinned and if so, repented,  anyway?   That is up to the Lord and I ain't Him.

Can you see into people's hearts to know what their intentions were ?   And that is even assuming that what they did was objectively "wrong" as well.

You are probably thinking about Joseph's polygamy and we cannot judge what his intentions were.  Do you know about the notion of "adoption" and why polygamy was practiced there?  Incidentally there is no hard evidence of Joseph having intercourse with those women- and no children were born to any of them- there is no DNA evidence that Joseph fathered any babies.

Blacks in the Priesthood?   Do you know the pressure Brigham was under to cave into allegations that he was breeding a "mongrel race" by allowing intermarriage with Black priesthood holders?   Yes I agree that ultimately it was a mistake to do the ban but am I to judge his intentions that I cannot possibly "mind read"?

I believe he thought he was doing the will of the Lord- in our presentism we cannot possibly understand those times.   That it was wrong is clear- but that his intentions as a human being raised in a racist society were evil?  No way that can be judged.

I’m not so eager to throw Brother  Brigham under the bus. If perchance I meet him in the great beyond, I would like to ask him about it. I have difficulty believing the Lord would let the Restoration go off the rails so quickly and easily. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is good? What is virtue?

Good question ;)

What is good about believing in God, specifically, what is inherently good about it? 

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Good question ;)

What is good about believing in God, specifically, what is inherently good about it? 

Good doesn't exist without God.  Without God good becomes whatever society says it is regardless of whether it's actually good.

Even Christ said none are good except God.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Good question ;)

What is good about believing in God, specifically, what is inherently good about it? 

Whatever most of the people think it is. 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Good doesn't exist without God.  Without God good becomes whatever society says it is regardless of whether it's actually good.

Even Christ said none are good except God.

That wasn't the question. What is inherently good about believing in God?

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Whatever most of the people think it is. 

Nah. That's not what is good about believing in God, is it?

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15 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Good question ;)

What is good about believing in God, specifically, what is inherently good about it? 

I’ll answer a different question- what’s wise about believing in God?

Too lazy to cfr so I’ll just call it my opinion- people with faith are overall happier than those without.  They see meaning and purpose in daily life and struggle, which allows them to move through those struggles in a meaningful way for them.  

Also my opinion, those who believe in God recognize they are subject to something greater than they are.  This can be a humbling factor and opens opportunity for gratitude.  Lots of potential for good to come of that, IMO

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26 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 

I’ll answer a different question- what’s wise about believing in God?

Too lazy to cfr so I’ll just call it my opinion- people with faith are overall happier than those without.  They see meaning and purpose in daily life and struggle, which allows them to move through those struggles in a meaningful way for them.  

Also my opinion, those who believe in God recognize they are subject to something greater than they are.  This can be a humbling factor and opens opportunity for gratitude.  Lots of potential for good to come of that, IMO

I can relate to much of this, so, towards the overall point of the thread: Would the church and leaders be more likely to help people be close to God by repenting? Or do people need an unapologetic leader or human institution to feel close to the divine?

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7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That wasn't the question. What is inherently good about believing in God?

Nah. That's not what is good about believing in God, is it?

If God is the source of all good then it stands to reason that beliving in him and moving towards him would be inherently good.

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

o lazy to cfr so I’ll just call it my opinion-

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.medicaldaily.com/believing-god-good-your-health-242079%3famp=1

From the POV of an atheist who wants to find something that works as well for others like her as it does for believers:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-happiness/200806/happiness-and-religion-happiness-religion%3famp

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I can relate to much of this, so, towards the overall point of the thread: Would the church and leaders be more likely to help people be close to God by repenting? Or do people need an unapologetic leader or human institution to feel close to the divine?

I think enough people need a face to face to push through those pesky defenses.  Humans can justify a lot  and it robs us of the cleansing power of transparency.  

For many, the relationship with God is too emotional and not concrete enough to do the work.  This is only my opinion. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think enough people need a face to face to push through those pesky defenses.  Humans can justify a lot  and it robs us of the cleansing power of transparency.  

For many, the relationship with God is too emotional and not concrete enough to do the work.  This is only my opinion. 

I think you thought I was talking about the church and leaders helping people to repent. I was talking about the church repenting and leaders repenting and the impact of their repentance.

Edited by Meadowchik

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I think you thought I was talking about the church and leaders helping people to repent. I was talking about the church repenting and leaders repenting and the impact of their repentance.

Yes, I did misunderstand.  Thank you for clarifying. 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That wasn't the question. What is inherently good about believing in God?

Nah. That's not what is good about believing in God, is it?

Well, you didn’t answer my questions either. 

If you don’t believe in God, there is no inherent good in anything. Even if you believe in God, well Jesus said even the devils believe. That  doesn’t do them much good.

Without God, nothing much works other than what the majority around you believe is good, and even then who are they to say what is good?

Edited by Bernard Gui

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, you didn’t answer my questions either. 

To be fair, you didn't ask me! :)

I would say that goodness is kindness and knowledge, and virtue is the power of both.

 

Edited by Meadowchik

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On 8/22/2019 at 1:29 PM, ttribe said:

So, is God incapable of identifying future transgressions to prevent a child from becoming the prey of a sexual predator in waiting?  

Exactly, Mo'ism is not deterministic like Calvinism. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

To be fair, you didn't ask me! :)

I would say that goodness is kindness and knowledge, and virtue is the power of both.

 

What is knowledge? How does one decide what is kind?

Who determines what is fair?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 8/30/2019 at 9:57 PM, Bernard Gui said:

What is good? What is virtue?

I admit that from the mind of man, it is very relative and subjective, yes.

My sense of the ultimate good and virtue is expressed here: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses 1:39.  And anything which advances this is good and virtuous, whereas anything that retards it is not.

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I've always believed that Judas had a job to do and he did it 100%.

I personally think he was part of 'the plan'

YMMV

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23 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is knowledge? How does one decide what is kind?

Who determines what is fair?

Kindness and knowledge are pretty straightforward: keep learning, and treat other human beings well, as you'd want to be treated.

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22 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

I've always believed that Judas had a job to do and he did it 100%.

I personally think he was part of 'the plan'

YMMV

Luke 22:3 indicates it was the devil's work he did, not God's.  But since the fall was part of the plan too.  Perhaps Lucifer gets a bad rap too.  Or Cain.

Poor old perditions.  Pretty nasty rewards for a job well done.

 

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Luke 22:3 indicates it was the devil's work he did, not God's.  But since the fall was part of the plan too.  Perhaps Lucifer gets a bad rap too.  Or Cain.

Poor old perditions.  Pretty nasty rewards for a job well done.

 

Sympathy for the Devil? That would be a catchy song title!

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