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MustardSeed

Callings given to imperfect human beings

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's too bad.  I'm sorry to hear you think so little of me.

It's not really about you.  It's about your question.  You are obviously conversant with the Church and its members, yet you still presumed to ask Latter-day Saints a question that begins with "So, is God incapable of..."  I cannot believe such a question is posed in good faith.

The remainder pertained to a very difficult and sensitive issue.  Again, I just don't see good faith there.  

Your question came across as deliberately offensive, inflammatory, and provocative.  So I decline to address it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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58 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So, is God incapable of identifying future transgressions to prevent a child from becoming the prey of a sexual predator in waiting?  

My opinion is that God is far less directly involved in our lives than we seem to need to think He is. 

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1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Yes, human imperfections can be proof that callings are not made through revelation.

Yes, Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, and he could have stopped it if he wanted to.  It served a higher eternal purpose.

This is being likened to a sexual predator being called as a Bishop, a position that puts him in a room with teenage girls and requires he ask them about chastity.  To imply that revelation was involved means we must believe that God wanted such a person in that position.

If we must now argue that sometimes God wants sexual predators (and by at least one account, adulterers) to be Bishops, and that that's part of his eternal plan, then I think we can all just turn the lights off and go find another church to join (preferably one with a shorter name).  Because that's game over for any claim the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has for anything having to do with God.

God once flooded the whole earth resulting in the death of everyone on the planet (children included), save for a few on a boat.  

Millions of God’s children die each year from starvation, and have each year for as long as any of us have been alive, and long before.

Each of us have had our entire life to ponder and inquire of God as to why those things are so.

For those of us who have done so, I trust the answers and assurances we’ve received give us insight into the questions posed in this thread.

For those who have yet to receive those answers and assurances, God has promised they are available to those who inquire of Him with the requisite intent.

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14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It's not really about you.  It's about your question.  You are obviously conversant with the Church and its members, yet you still presumed to ask Latter-day Saints a question that begins with "So, is God incapable of..."  I cannot believe such a question is posed in good faith.

The remainder pertained to a very difficult and sensitive issue.  Again, I just don't see good faith there.  

Your question came across as deliberately offensive, inflammatory, and provocative.  So I decline to address it.

Thanks,

-Smac

And yet, for me, this entire discussion encapsulates an irreconcilable problem within LDS theology.  It sat on my shelf for many, many years until it, along with many other things, came crashing down on my soul.  You were extremely specific in your post that inspiration through God would catch pre-existing sin and prevent a calling.  You were equally specific, by default, in your exclusion of future bad acts.  That's the hard part and I wanted to hear you explain your position on the issue.  The question was not asked in bad faith, but your cynicism is duly noted.

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23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And yet, for me, this entire discussion encapsulates an irreconcilable problem within LDS theology. 

Okay.  I'll listen.

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It sat on my shelf for many, many years until it, along with many other things, came crashing down on my soul.  You were extremely specific in your post that inspiration through God would catch pre-existing sin and prevent a calling. 

Huh?  Where did I say that?

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You were equally specific, by default, in your exclusion of future bad acts. 

Um, no.

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's the hard part and I wanted to hear you explain your position on the issue.  The question was not asked in bad faith, but your cynicism is duly noted.

It's not cynicism.  If you think I misconstrued your intent, just say so.

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  I'll listen.

Huh?  Where did I say that?

Um, no.

It's not cynicism.  If you think I misconstrued your intent, just say so.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think I'd rather not, at this point.  The well has already been poisoned.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I think I'd rather not, at this point.  The well has already been poisoned.

As you like.  I apologize for giving offense.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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Sometimes callings are made out of desperation instead of inspiration. A ward may need to fill a calling with too few candidates to choose from.
I moved into a ward once and before I even attended my first church meeting I got a called to be the Elders Quorum President of that ward.
The ward was full of old High Priests and only a few elders who already had other callings or who the Bishop knew could not do the calling.
After many years of experience in the church I have come to not be so surprised when a few leak past the radar of revelation and get into trouble.
"Many are called but few are chosen".  

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2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Many are called but few are chosen".  

Indeed. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Wow.

This was a spin off from the other thread discussing a man who is charged with sex abuse that served as a Bishop and currently serves as a High Councilor.  There seems to be a question regarding who knew what and when.  I've made no judgments on that case, but that's why I used the example I did in my post.

Meme-s-I-See-What-You-Did-There-Meme-Sty

I see what you did there! So as to not derail another thread's topic, you bring that topic into the very topic that was derailing that one...

Edited by CV75

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6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Meme-s-I-See-What-You-Did-There-Meme-Sty

I see what you did there! So as to not derail another thread's topic, you bring that topic into the very topic that was derailing that one...

No, I didn't start this thread....but it was linked to from the other one to discuss this aspect of that case further.

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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

No, I didn't start this thread....but it was linked to from the other one to discuss this aspect of that case further.

It doesn't matter that you didn't start the thread. You fostered the emphasis on sex abuse into a topic about Judas.

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4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Everybody has weaknesses and some work on them and some don't

Yes, and some think God needs to yet figure that into the equation!

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1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Yes, and some think God needs to yet figure that into the equation!

Maybe you weren’t following the other thread about the sex abuse involving an ex Bishop and high counselor?  This topic was brought up by a few posters and Bluebell requested a new thread started rather than derail that one.  

It might be confusing if you missed that other thread!

Also, when discussing this topic, I think sex abuse is the most common issue.  

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Definitely.  Does that mean that He always (or even usually) does prevent child abuse (or other evil that people choose to commit)?  No.  People are (mostly) free to choose to hurt others if they want.  Mortality and agency really suck that way.

Sometimes callings are issued under God's delegation and direction according to that which "seemeth him/you good" (see various references in D&C and Book of Mormon), and not direct revelation and command. I don't see how calling sex abusers, which can be unfortunate when they don't repent, can be deemed a mistake. Otherwise, a lack of revelation is not a mistake, especially when the Lord has set it up for the bishop to do as "seemeth him good."

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It doesn't matter that you didn't start the thread. You fostered the emphasis on sex abuse into a topic about Judas.

 

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

So as to not derail another thread's topic, you bring that topic into the very topic that was derailing that one...

Wrong again.

I didn't introduce the sex abuse aspect regarding this topic (and I was not the first to "foster" it) :

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72160-callings-given-to-imperfect-human-beings/?do=findComment&comment=1209924493

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72160-callings-given-to-imperfect-human-beings/?do=findComment&comment=1209924501

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72160-callings-given-to-imperfect-human-beings/?do=findComment&comment=1209924502

 

I just continued discussing what was already being discussed....

Edited by ALarson

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3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Maybe you weren’t following the other thread about the sex abuse involving an ex Bishop and high counselor?  This topic was brought up by a few posters and Bluebell requested a new thread started rather than derail that one.  

It might be confusing if you missed that other thread!

Also, when discussing this topic, I think sex abuse is the most common issue.  

No, I wasn't involved in the other thread. I think the most common issue is a misunderstanding of how mistakes, delegation and revelation intersect, but it goes unrecognized due convenience and bias, which is the real mistake in my opinion :)

 

 

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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

 

Wrong again.

I didn't introduce the sex abuse aspect regarding this topic:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72160-callings-given-to-imperfect-human-beings/?do=findComment&comment=1209924493

You needn't have introduced it to have brought it into the thread. I am right again! Is this what you are really interested in, and not addressing my salient points? If so, guess what my next post will be LOL

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3 hours ago, smac97 said:

So . . . infallibility?  Is that what you calling for?  And/or faulting the leaders of the Church for lacking it?

Again, you seem to be alluding to an expectation of infallibility.

Thanks,

-Smac

If not calling sexual predators as Bishops (or MTC Presidents) takes infallibility to do it, then yes, that is my expectation for a Church that is led by direct revelation from God.

If that is asking too much, then I simply want a Church leader to tell us, from the pulpit, that they don't get enough reliable inspiration to prevent the calling of such men to such positions.  There are simply too many Bishops and too little discernment.  God is a God of omniscience and wonders who gets upset if we use the word "Mormon", but at some point the Law of Truly Large Numbers takes over and there's nothing He can do.  In the end, it's like whack-a-mole keeping these people out of Church leadership and God still only has two hands.

I also want them to explain to me why, if the leaders are fallible, they shouldn't make the financials public.  But that's a different discussion.

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9 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Maybe you weren’t following the other thread about the sex abuse involving an ex Bishop and high counselor?  This topic was brought up by a few posters and Bluebell requested a new thread started rather than derail that one.  

It might be confusing if you missed that other thread!

Also, when discussing this topic, I think sex abuse is the most common issue.  

Exactly.  But I'll give CV75 the benefit of the doubt here.  Maybe he missed that thread and also missed all the posts before mine discussing sexual abuse or sexual predators.

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Sometimes you wonder if people are actually prayed about or just thought about like, um, yeah i'd guess he or she would do

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29 minutes ago, cinepro said:

You should embroider that on a pillow and sell it at Deseret Book.

:rofl:

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26 minutes ago, cinepro said:

If not calling sexual predators as Bishops (or MTC Presidents) takes infallibility to do it, then yes, that is my expectation for a Church that is led by direct revelation from God.

If that is asking too much, then I simply want a Church leader to tell us, from the pulpit, that they don't get enough reliable inspiration to prevent the calling of such men to such positions.  There are simply too many Bishops and too little discernment.  God is a God of omniscience and wonders who gets upset if we use the word "Mormon", but at some point the Law of Truly Large Numbers takes over and there's nothing He can do.  In the end, it's like whack-a-mole keeping these people out of Church leadership and God still only has two hands.

I also want them to explain to me why, if the leaders are fallible, they shouldn't make the financials public.  But that's a different discussion.

Makes you wonder why the Savior bothers going through the trouble of a prophet at all amiright?

I mean, c’mon, sometimes if you want something done perfectly, you just have to do it yourself...

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Great topic, thanks for posting. I have enjoyed the responses. I think about thing differently, I see some post blaming God that he is calling predators to positions of authority or power. I haven’t seen any post on giving  Satan any credit for this. I believe he tries to tempt everyone and unfortunately it works sometimes. Are any of these cases a result of good men being tempted and falling or is it just uninspired calls to bad men? Just some of my thoughts. Thanks

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