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High Councilman arrested for filming a woman getting undressed

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37 minutes ago, Maureen said:

It looks like Murdock was arrested on August 13th which was reported in the media. Dehlin says he started receiving information about Murdock on August 14th. He didn't post his podcast until August 22nd. That's more than two days.

M.

True, I was in error.

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5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Got it.  Just to clarify, Nehor (and myself) were not speaking about possible future events, but what has actually occurred so far.  What the victims may do in the future doesn't seem relevant to the point that we were each making, so that's probably where the confusion came from.

Thanks for clearing it up.  :) 

And I believe a bishop is more than a mere volunteer, he's the father of our ward, this from the son of my previous bishop. And he's the mantle of the ward, I've heard it said as well. 

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13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And I believe a bishop is more than a mere volunteer, he's the father of our ward, this from the son of my previous bishop. And he's the mantle of the ward, I've heard it said as well. 

I'm not sure how being the father of a ward means someone is more than a volunteer though.  Can you explain what you mean? All it means to be a volunteer is that the person freely offered to do the job (or in our case, accept the calling) and isn't paid.

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3 hours ago, ALarson said:

but I can't see that it would be "more convincing" than those involved in this case who have first hand accounts of this guy, plus at least one claim filed by an employee (that resulted in him being fired)

The person making the claim is the alleged victim. Her name and former position working with Dehlin is known, iirc. There were iirc harassment claims filed as well, but it may be something else legal (wrongful termination?) as it has been a long time since she posted the info.  My understanding is there is another claiming to have been a witness, but I am less familiar with how much they have been established as more than someone on the internet making a claim. 

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I can't wait to see the end of this thread.  Somehow, someway...someday...the fact that a priesthood holder from Utah gets arrested in Tennessee for picture taking will all be John Dehlin's fault.  Getting my popcorn out to watch the twist and turns of where I might share the blame too.  You guys are amazing!!

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On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:55 AM, bluebell said:

I had to laugh at the article that said that Murdock was released from being a bishop and called as a High Councilman, a position of broader influence.  I would bet money that most of the people in my ward have no idea who our high councilman even is even though he's on the stand every Sunday.  

I know him because he comes to our Ward Council meetings, but before I was a part of that I wouldn't have had a clue what his name was.  And he never speaks in church, except to conduct stake business like asking for sustaining of stake leadership or releasing someone from a stake calling.

He definitely does not have more influence than the bishop.  :lol:

So true. I think a lot of people don't even really know what their calling involves. I didn't until I became stake music chair and when I had a large event, the high councilman assigned to help me was so awesome - putting out all sorts of fires like removing pews, quickly getting ushers after we were told the missionaries couldn't do it at the last minute, etc.. It's not the sort of calling where you call people into your office for a chat or anything. 

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He did this while his wife is nearby and he is still alive?

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It would not make for good "journalism" if the truth were actually known about High Councilmen - broader influence? Gads, for the most part, when the HC comes, I read my scriptures. 

Jeanne, you are way out over your skies on this and your dark side is showing. 

The individual is in the legal system now and they will handle it. As if it should be said again, we should never trust anyone due to their position, membership, calling, etc. We are human and we deal with humans. Humans can be completely, morally shattered while other humans can be found to be holy by God's grace. We should be wary at all times and allow time to afford confidence of others by their actions. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

It would not make for good "journalism" if the truth were actually known about High Councilmen - broader influence? Gads, for the most part, when the HC comes, I read my scriptures. 

Jeanne, you are way out over your skies on this and your dark side is showing. 

The individual is in the legal system now and they will handle it. As if it should be said again, we should never trust anyone due to their position, membership, calling, etc. We are human and we deal with humans. Humans can be completely, morally shattered while other humans can be found to be holy by God's grace. We should be wary at all times and allow time to afford confidence of others by their actions. 

Jeanne doesn't have a dark side. There are two other cases of bishops or previous bishops that have sexually abused young children. One was already out and another will soon be on the news. John Dehlin/Sam Young are correct. No more one on one interviews with children. In every other "volunteer" position in the wards there is always supposed to be two deep!

Edited by Tacenda

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6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There are two other cases of bishops or previous bishops that have sexually abused young children. One was already out and another will soon be on the news. John Dehlin/Sam Young are correct. No more one on one interviews with children.

Couple of quick thoughts: (1) It seems like it makes a difference whether or not we are talking about current or historic abuse by someone who was, at the time, serving as a bishop as opposed to abuse that took place after someone was released as a bishop. And (2) I think it makes a difference whether or not the abuse takes place during a one-on-one interview as opposed to some other environment. 

To analogize, if we were to restate the above with a different position, it could very well read something like this: There are at least two known cases of dental hygienists or previous dental hygienists that have sexually abused young children. [...] The critics are right. No more visits to the dentist for routine cleanings!

 

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10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Gads, for the most part, when the HC comes, I read my scriptures. 

We actually had an HC speaker a couple of weeks or so ago who was kind of riveting!  It was a nice change of pace.

Yeah, but usually I too am largely elsewhere when they come.

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2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Couple of quick thoughts: (1) It seems like it makes a difference whether or not we are talking about current or historic abuse by someone who was, at the time, serving as a bishop as opposed to abuse that took place after someone was released as a bishop. And (2) I think it makes a difference whether or not the abuse takes place during a one-on-one interview as opposed to some other environment. 

To analogize, if we were to restate the above with a different position, it could very well read something like this: There are at least two known cases of dental hygienists or previous dental hygienists that have sexually abused young children. [...] The critics are right. No more visits to the dentist for routine cleanings!

 

1. It doesn't matter if the abuse took place afterwards. That kind of person isn't the person to interview young children with those inclinations.

2. Why does everyone in the wards have to be two deep and not the bishop? And the other day I mentioned that a bishop usually isn't just a volunteer like the PR for the church mentioned in an article about this topic. So if that's the case put the bishop in the same sphere. Needing a two deep policy.

3. The news is/will be combusting with many leaders and members of the church that abuse. What is going on??

 

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33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And the other day I mentioned that a bishop usually isn't just a volunteer like the PR for the church mentioned in an article about this topic. So if that's the case put the bishop in the same sphere. Needing a two deep policy.

I asked you to clarify that statement but maybe you missed it so I'll ask again.  How is a bishop not usually just a volunteer?  A volunteer, by definition, is someone agrees to perform a duty without being paid for it.  That would seem to perfectly apply to a bishop.

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1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I asked you to clarify that statement but maybe you missed it so I'll ask again.  How is a bishop not usually just a volunteer?  A volunteer, by definition, is someone agrees to perform a duty without being paid for it.  That would seem to perfectly apply to a bishop.

Why isn't the bishop required to have a two deep policy like all of the rest then? There is the distinction that a bishop holds the mantle, so to speak, in the ward. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-mantle-of-a-bishop?lang=eng

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why isn't the bishop required to have a two deep policy like all of the rest then?

More than likely it is believed the privacy of the confessional should be allowed for those who want it.

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42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

1. It doesn't matter if the abuse took place afterwards. That kind of person isn't the person to interview young children with those inclinations.

I think the details of the situation matter very much. Just like with my hypothetical example of the abusive dental hygienist, I think it makes a difference if the person abuses (or grooms) the child during the course of their one-one-one cleaning sessions or if they run into the kid at the mall and abuse the child there. You may say, sure - this isn't the kind of person I want to have left alone in a room with my child (and I would agree), but the root cause of the issue is actually the individual - not the regular cleanings.

 

Quote

2. Why does everyone in the wards have to be two deep and not the bishop? And the other day I mentioned that a bishop usually isn't just a volunteer like the PR for the church mentioned in an article about this topic. So if that's the case put the bishop in the same sphere. Needing a two deep policy.

Because sensitive conversations regarding worthiness don't need to be aired before any more people than are absolutely necessary. And with youth now having the option to have someone else present, I'm honestly not sure why anyone thinks this is even an issue anymore.

 

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3. The news is/will be combusting with many leaders and members of the church that abuse. What is going on??

Mankind is fallen. You may have read about it back in Genesis or something. ;) 

Seriously though, abuse is just one of the myriad ways in which mankind can sin, and it is something that a finite number of people participate in, regardless of whatever larger religious, ethnic, or socio-economic group they happen to belong to.

I'm not convinced that the church is any more dangerous than anywhere else in society. In fact, I believe it is markedly safer and that faithful adherence to the gospel helps prevent abuse from happening in the first place and helps give young people the courage to stand against it and report it when it does occur. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why isn't the bishop required to have a two deep policy like all of the rest then? There is the distinction that a bishop holds the mantle, so to speak, in the ward. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/04/the-mantle-of-a-bishop?lang=eng

Holding the mantle doesn't have anything to do with whether or not someone is a volunteer though.  

I think that Calm answered your question well.  In the eyes of the church, the risk of someone being sexually abused during a bishop's interview is small enough, and what is to be gained by allowing the option of one-on-one if desired is big enough, that they don't make two deep interviews for bishops necessary. 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

More than likely it is believed the privacy of the confessional should be allowed for those who want it.

But why would a child of 8 or even 11 need a confessional? I've said many times that I believe a single adult or maybe slightly younger definitely should have that ability. I appreciated a single adult bishop helping me back into activity, so I don't want this to be abolished at all. But for younger, I think we're playing with fire.

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17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Jeanne doesn't have a dark side. There are two other cases of bishops or previous bishops that have sexually abused young children. One was already out and another will soon be on the news. John Dehlin/Sam Young are correct. No more one on one interviews with children. In every other "volunteer" position in the wards there is always supposed to be two deep!

Her comment on popcorn seemed way off base and out of touch with the thread. If one is human, one has a dark side. Cheers

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Tacenda, have you seen what the current and proposed curriculum is for schools when it comes to seks ed? If that isn't grooming, what is? 8 - 11 years olds are taught what I didn't know about until I was over 21 and yet I somehow had … I digress. 

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40 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Her comment on popcorn seemed way off base and out of touch with the thread. If one is human, one has a dark side. Cheers

Have you seen that expression before? I don't think it's dark at all. 

 

29 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Tacenda, have you seen what the current and proposed curriculum is for schools when it comes to seks ed? If that isn't grooming, what is? 8 - 11 years olds are taught what I didn't know about until I was over 21 and yet I somehow had … I digress. 

I think it's icky in a church setting, sorry.

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10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Why does everyone in the wards have to be two deep and not the bishop?

I’m sure 2:1 in personal interviews would go swimmingly in public perception.

But, to answer your question, there is always someone to be outside the bishop’s door. No, it’s not exactly quite the same as two-deep, but then again, neither is a personal meeting with the bishop the same as a Sunday school lesson.

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7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But why would a child of 8 or even 11 need a confessional?

Because they want to tell the bishop someone, a parent perhaps, is abusing them?

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