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High Councilman arrested for filming a woman getting undressed

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6 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if anyone who has actually been raped feels that way.  It sounds more like something people who don't understand the depth of the impact of rape might think.

It all sounds haenous to me. 

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1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

It all sounds haenous to me. 

Also, I think that such women simply need a way to describe the depth of the pain they experience in betrayal.  I doubt anyone would volunteer for either. 

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since women appear to be just as likely physically aroused (see link above) but may need additional context to push it to sexual desire/interest, creating a social context of acceptability and feelings of low cost (no big deal, victimless crime, etc) for women as well as avoiding the offensive pitfalls of being degrading to women or otherwise being offensive outside the sexual factor is likely to lead to massive use by women, imo.  Easy, one sided, and no strings works for a lot of women too.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dating-and-mating/201811/how-men-and-women-experience-sexual-desire-differently

It also says this which I interpret as evidence for my position.  I have underlined the relevant statements

Quote

 

But is the experience of physiological arousal sufficient for women to feel sexually attracted to a partner? Other research raises questions about whether objective or physiological arousal is sufficient to stimulate feelings of sexual desire in women, and whether women respond differently to physiological sexual arousal than men do. For example, Gillath and colleagues (2007) exposed both men and women to “prime” photographs of naked people as well as neutral photographs. These prime photographs were presented at a speed intended to make them subliminal; that is, the photographs were presented too fast for participants to consciously recognize what they had seen. After the subliminal primes, participants were then shown target photographs of attractive members of the other sex, and they were asked to indicate their sexual arousal to those target photos (the people in these target photos were also naked, although no genitals were visible). 

The researchers found that men’s self-reported sexual arousal was not influenced by the subliminal sexual or neutral prime photographs; men were equally aroused by the women in the target photographs regardless of the preceding subliminal prime. However, women actually experienced less subjective sexual arousal following the sexual prime photographs, both relative to the neutral photographs and relative to their male counterparts. These authors suggest that the sexual prime may have led to negative thoughts or feelings for women. They also suggest that a photograph of an unfamiliar naked man (while potentially physiologically arousing) might be perceived as threatening or dangerous for women. The authors speculate that women’s conscious evaluations of their own subjective sexual arousal may be more important than their objective levels of physiological arousal when perceiving sexual stimuli (Gillath et al., 2007).

 

Again, subjective factors win over objective brain activity.  The men were not affected by the priming photos, but only those they consciously experienced over a longer time period.  Their subjective experience in what they found arousing was different than the women, who were considering their own evaluations of their subjective arousal.

Women it seems tended to consider other factors while the men, it seems, were simply and directly more likely to be aroused by the pictures

Edited by mfbukowski

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5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I did not state that it doesn’t exist.  It absolutely exists.  

And a wife’s pain is always legit. She is the forgotten element and needs a voice. More. And more accurate. 

However, my experience is that the cry of addiction often is inaccurate and it robs people of getting to the actual Nitty Gritty. 

I think use of addiction when it is not is likely similar to using obesity or fat when talking about 15  lbs or less overweight.  I have seen that  kind of fear of someone else not being in as control as one would like result in anorexia in one of my relatives and giving up on any attempt to control or be healthy as it feels an impossible standard for the one being criticized.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It also says this which I interpret as evidence for my position.  I

Not debating your claim if you were thinking that.  There are differences, we just need to be careful not to assume difference where it does not exist just as much as not ignore it where it does.

In the past, it was not unusual for there to be little concern over women and porn because many believed women didn't respond to it where men did.  If it continues to be seen as a 'guy' thing, a lot of women will probably end up suffering and not knowing how to get help.

Edited by Calm
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43 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Perhaps we can sum things up with the following trite but true statement "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" 

A man wrote that statement.  ;)

 

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6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not debating your claim if you were thinking that.  There are differences, we just need to be careful not to assume difference where it does not exist just as much as not ignore it where it does.

In the past, it was not unusual for there to be little concern over women and porn because many believed women didn't respond to it where men did.  If it continues to be seen as a 'guy' thing, a lot of women will probably end up suffering and not knowing how to get help.

As a bishop I was called upon to counsel a couple who were both addicted to watching porn together.

In today's world I guess I have to add that they were heterosexual.

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2 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Maybe I've missed something in the articles..... but I'm inclined to give his wife the benefit of the doubt.  It's not clear to me that she knew all of what was going on.  I would imagine that this was a frightening, chaotic, and confusing few moments of panic following the allegations in the store.  Her husband might have been trying to convince her that the accuser was wrong or misinterpreting his actions.  If she didn't see the photos before he deleted them, then she might be inclined to believe her husband over his victim. 

I try imagine how I would respond if I was in a store with my wife, and then from the other side of the store I hear someone accusing her of some horrible thing.  My likely first inclination would be to protect my wife, and then try to talk things out with the accuser and gather more information (especially, if I thought it was out of character for her).  Without convincing information, I would do what I could to protect her, because in my mind, it would be very unlikely that she would do the horrible thing she was accused of. 

I'm uncomfortable with some of the speculation and accusations I'm seeing towards his wife.  It's hard to know how anyone will respond in a traumatic incident.  If she attempted to cover up, or aid and abet a crime, then it's the responsibility of the authorities to look in to that.  I don't think that we have enough information.... at least I don't.

I am guessing I wouldn't be afraid of getting others involved if my husband was accused and that is why I go to her likely being aware he was culpable in some way, but I may be naive or unrealistic.

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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Women do not seem to understand why it is such a problem or that it is such a problem. But discussing actual differences between men and women is verboten.

Please don't derail the thread into a women vs. men thing.

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2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m going to rush in and defend his wife’s intentions which we know nothing of.

Just as easily as being turned in by her husbands proclivities, she could have spent her whole life protecting her family from discovering things she may have only known about subconsciously. To have the secrecy threatened could have had her behaving as we see reported.  

 

Personally I think this scenario is much more likely.

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2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The Church already released a statement on it. Sounds like they're planning a Church court. The evidence seems pretty open and shut so I can't see them waiting. 

where is the release? I can't find it😕

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44 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am guessing I wouldn't be afraid of getting others involved if my husband was accused and that is why I go to her likely being aware he was culpable in some way, but I may be naive or unrealistic.

That's understandable,  and just to be clear,  my post was not meant to single you out.  It just happened to be the last one I read before I responded.   There were others in this thread who reacted more harshly.  Whatever the case (whether she bears some guilt or is an innocent victim herself), it must be a frightening and vulnerable time for her and her kids.  

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28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

where is the release? I can't find it😕

It was quoted in one of the news reports. Not sure what site.

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Please don't derail the thread into a women vs. men thing.

There is no "versus" happening here.

It is discussing differences. The Proclamation agrees that we are different and have different roles, and so do the scientific sources we are discussing 

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1 hour ago, cacheman said:

my post was not meant to single you out

I didn't feel that way, I just often use myself to think things through or as an illustration since I am the expert on all things me.

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I'm losing all patience for enabling wives. Just read the article and wow. Really? 

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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

where is the release? I can't find it😕

This is all they have said so far:

Murdock has been removed from all church responsibilities, Hawkins said.
“This type of behavior is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated from any Church member,” Hawkins’ email said. “A person that engages in this type of behavior may have their Church privileges restricted or may face the potential loss of Church membership.”

The statement implies that there will be a disciplinary council held. 

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The path of discipleship must also lead through the discipline of self-mastery. It does not matter if it is the individual is a leader or not - what is evident is that no individual should be assumed to be in control of their passions. Trust should only be given through proof and never assumptions based on position, age, etc.  

This fellow has damned himself and though we may talk about it here, we will forget him and his family in a very short time. However, they will have to live with this for years and years.  If anything, I pity him and his wife. How crushingly sad. 

I pray that he may come to know, through sincere repentance, the joy of embracing Jesus Christ. May His mercy be upon this poor individual and his spouse. 

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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There is no "versus" happening here.

It is discussing differences. The Proclamation agrees that we are different and have different roles, and so do the scientific sources we are discussing 

That’s not the subject of the thread though. Let’s stick with the topic in the OP. 

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is worse. While the Clinton escapades were bad the women he was with at least consented. That coverup was to protect public image. This coverup all but guaranteed an increase in the number of victims.

Not Juanita Broaderick

Not Kathleen Willey

Not Paula Jones

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The Proclamation agrees that we are different and have different roles, and so do the scientific sources we are discussing 

And as research increasingly makes clear, 'scientific' sources based on American data often tell us more about contemporary America than they do about humanity since many differences are culturally bound. This becomes clear as we look at the past and realise that, even in the same culture, assumed differences change and often reverse over time, so that what we now 'know' about how men work is precisely what previous generations 'knew' about how women work. 

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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5 hours ago, cacheman said:

I'm inclined to give his wife the benefit of the doubt.

Yep. Even in situations where the second person is a victim of abuse, the typical initial response is to protect the integrity of the family unit. It's a gut response, not a head one. That comes later ... if at all. I think most of us would do the same. Trust in an intimate is not discarded in a moment.

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12 minutes ago, longview said:

Not Juanita Broaderick

Not Kathleen Willey

Not Paula Jones

giphy.gif

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As as research increasingly makes clear, 'scientific' sources based on American data often tell us more about contemporary America than they do about humanity since many differences are culturally bound. This becomes clear as we look at the past and realise that, even in the same culture, assumed differences change and often reverse over time, so that what we now 'know' about how men work is precisely what previous generations 'knew' about how women work. 

Any intelligent being arriving on earth and examining humanity would instantly see the differences between men and women, their cognitive makeup and the roles for which their bodies, and evolution, clearly have prepared them

Of course they should be "equal" and are in every respect- probably.  There are I am sure things at which women excel far beyond men, and vice-versa.

But of course at least in American culture, apparently,  it is not politically correct to make such inquiries.

There are many texts on cognitive science which account for and acknowledge such biases caused by political and cultural differences.  But we conveniently ignore them

Edited by mfbukowski

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