Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
bluebell

High Councilman arrested for filming a woman getting undressed

Recommended Posts

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Women do not seem to understand why it is such a problem or that it is such a problem. But discussing actual differences between men and women is verboten.

I am not sure I agree. Women in the church often seem to exaggerate the severity of porn use. I still use one online dating app and the number of sisters who have said they will not date anyone who has EVER looked at porn boggles my mind. Then again, many of them are divorced and there is probably a story there. The decision that porn was an “idea” and is protected by the First Amendment was a big mistake. Most porn users are not monsters but many people who would never have become monsters become so with enough porn exposure.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I’m going to rush in and defend his wife’s intentions which we know nothing of.

Just as easily as being turned in by her husbands proclivities, she could have spent her whole life protecting her family from discovering things she may have only known about subconsciously. To have the secrecy threatened could have had her behaving as we see reported.  

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He probably will not be excommunicated until the criminal prosecution is over but I am betting there was an immediate release from his calling. Release generally happens even if church leadership is unsure if the crime actually happened or even is convinced they are innocent.

The Church already released a statement on it. Sounds like they're planning a Church court. The evidence seems pretty open and shut so I can't see them waiting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure I agree. Women in the church often seem to exaggerate the severity of porn use.

"Severity" in what sense?  Frequency?  Or effect?

I think Latter-day Saint women often feel that a husband looking at porn is a profound betrayal of trust.  And it can make the wife feel degraded and humiliated.

The 24/7 availability of essentially unlimited amounts and types of online porn is a huge problem in our day.  And it is increasingly becoming a problem for women and girls (as consumers).

Quote

I still use one online dating app and the number of sisters who have said they will not date anyone who has EVER looked at porn boggles my mind. Then again, many of them are divorced and there is probably a story there. The decision that porn was an “idea” and is protected by the First Amendment was a big mistake.

I think the challenge is that "obscenity" is difficult to define, which makes porn difficult to legislate/regulate.  See here.

I think John Adams had it right when he said this:

Quote

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

In the end, we can't really legislate sexual morality.  Not anymore.  I think we, as a people, no longer share the same moral framework that made past legal regulations of such things feasible.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m going to rush in and defend his wife’s intentions which we know nothing of.

Just as easily as being turned in by her husbands proclivities, she could have spent her whole life protecting her family from discovering things she may have only known about subconsciously. To have the secrecy threatened could have had her behaving as we see reported.  

 

I read somewhere, need to find it, that he had some dealings in the past either in his work place, or somewhere else, so you are definitely on to something here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m going to rush in and defend his wife’s intentions which we know nothing of.

Just as easily as being turned in by her husbands proclivities, she could have spent her whole life protecting her family from discovering things she may have only known about subconsciously. To have the secrecy threatened could have had her behaving as we see reported.  

 

We know one intention as she didn't want police involved.

I would not be surprised if this was true, but that she so quickly responded with a desire to cover it up....I think it likely her knowledge was less subconscious and more aware of his inclinations.  

And she has elevated the needs of her family over the needs of others as by protecting him, she has likely been allowing him to victimize other women.  And if he has shared pictures online, this is harm that can't be undone in many cases, but may follow his victims the rest of their lives.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure I agree. Women in the church often seem to exaggerate the severity of porn use. I still use one online dating app and the number of sisters who have said they will not date anyone who has EVER looked at porn boggles my mind. Then again, many of them are divorced and there is probably a story there. The decision that porn was an “idea” and is protected by the First Amendment was a big mistake. Most porn users are not monsters but many people who would never have become monsters become so with enough porn exposure.

I agree with this but am not sure how this is any "disagreement" with my post.  It is my belief that women for the most part simply do not understand the power over men that porn can have, which is born out by your mind-boggling evidence.   It is a difference that cannot be discussed since it implies that there are cognitive differences between men and women, a topic that forbidden in our society.

Just watch what happens with this comment.  It will be a self-fulfilling event.  :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The Church already released a statement on it. Sounds like they're planning a Church court. The evidence seems pretty open and shut so I can't see them waiting. 

Generally it is policy not to hold a disciplinary council while a criminal proceeding is ongoing. The danger is that the church’s investigation could taint the legal one or that the council is held and the secular court subpoenas people involved in the council. There are exceptions and this might end up being one.

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Severity" in what sense?  Frequency?  Or effect?

I think Latter-day Saint women often feel that a husband looking at porn is a profound betrayal of trust.  And it can make the wife feel degraded and humiliated.

The 24/7 availability of essentially unlimited amounts and types of online porn is a huge problem in our day.  And it is increasingly becoming a problem for women and girls (as consumers).

I think the challenge is that "obscenity" is difficult to define, which makes porn difficult to legislate/regulate.  See here.

I think John Adams had it right when he said this:

In the end, we can't really legislate sexual morality.  Not anymore.  I think we, as a people, no longer share the same moral framework that made past legal regulations of such things feasible.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think some overestimate the effect. I am not trying to say it is okay but some have treated it as the equivalent of fornication or adultery. The new church counseling resources they just released take a very different tack on porn use defining it more as a mental or emotional problem and not necessarily a moral one. I plan to do a thread on the new counseling resources pulling out some of the new instructions if I am ever bored and have time. One of the instructions is to the spouse of the person struggling to make them realize they are not the problem nor does it mean their spouse’s love is a masquerade. Porn satisfies different desires then real intimacy.

All that being said porn is corrosive to the soul and I do not want to diminish that in any way. I do think making it out to be more serious then it actually is sometimes prevents people from getting help. On the other hand if you downplay the severity people start justifying it. Not sure if there is a middle ground that will best serve everyone. Brigham Young gave a sermon that some people are heartbroken at the slightest call to repentance and weep and repent while others can be talked to for hours with severity and they still do not know what you are talking about.

Women are consuming more porn now. Part of the plan. The porn industry began a big push to make pornography palatable to women back in the 80s. It is really starting to bear fruit now.

While part of me is glad we do not criminalize sexual morality anymore part of me envies the Book of Mormon government where adultery was punishable by law and my teenage years where my friend and I would wait hours to download a video game trailer video. Took hours to download a very blocky small and scaled down video. Now you can switch between porn scenes in seconds and have tens of thousands of videos available. I would miss the internet but I would not blame the Savior for kicking off the Second Coming with a massive EMP burst.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree with this but am not sure how this is any "disagreement" with my post.  It is my belief that women for the most part simply do not understand the power over men that porn can have, which is born out by your mind-boggling evidence.   It is a difference that cannot be discussed since it implies that there are cognitive differences between men and women, a topic that forbidden in our society.

Just watch what happens with this comment.  It will be a self-fulfilling event.  :)

 

I have seen women whose addiction to porn is just as severe. Sometimes the difference is that it is erotica and not porn. I helped out at a garage sale for a friend cleaning out a dead relative’s house. The woman seemed to have an avid interest in bodice ripping books. A lady, probably in her 50s, showed up and bought all the books. She tried not to make eye contact.

As a writer I almost envy the genre. Writers at least used to do find/replace on names in those books and sell it again with a different title. They were almost never caught. Twilight was soft erotica.

Still, you are right. Many women do not have the same reaction to erotic visual stimuli. This is good for those it never draw in but bad because it increases the shame for women caught in that net because they feel weak because of it. Even in addiction recovery groups they can feel like their problem is seen as easier to overcome.

I believe there are cognitive tendencies in each gender but I am not sure they are strict differences. The chemical differences are more pronounced. Testosterone is a hell of a drug. Then again, so is estrogen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree with this but am not sure how this is any "disagreement" with my post.  It is my belief that women for the most part simply do not understand the power over men that porn can have, which is born out by your mind-boggling evidence.   It is a difference that cannot be discussed since it implies that there are cognitive differences between men and women, a topic that forbidden in our society.

It affects a lot of women as well. I'm not sure this is necessarily a male vs. female thing although it probably besets more men due to the nature of our society. There's some arguments regarding men being more visual and women being more emotional, but it's not clear how socialized that is. The old argument was that certain romance books were the female equivalent of visual porn. However that may well have changed somewhat. It's also more primarily a matter of degree.

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Generally it is policy not to hold a disciplinary council while a criminal proceeding is ongoing. The danger is that the church’s investigation could taint the legal one or that the council is held and the secular court subpoenas people involved in the council. There are exceptions and this might end up being one.

I'd imagine that state laws regarding confessions would apply to a Church court. Of course those laws do vary by state. But that could well be policy. I'll fully admit I don't know what the policy is there and whether it's church wide in the handbook or more tied to Stake Presidents and Area Presidents.

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think some overestimate the effect. I am not trying to say it is okay but some have treated it as the equivalent of fornication or adultery. The new church counseling resources they just released take a very different tack on porn use defining it more as a mental or emotional problem and not necessarily a moral one.

While I'm not up on the literature, I know many criminologists and sociologists have made the argument that for certain groups it actually decreases crime (say rape) by giving an outlet. Again, I'm not well enough versed in the arguments to know how solid they are empirically. But you certainly see them getting made in major news sites. Particularly those for people with odd desires. On the other hand there's also clearly gateway functions where they get used to obscene things and may make acting out on it more likely. It appears likely for child abuse for instance. So there's likely different affects on different subgroups.

Edited by clarkgoble

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:
Quote

"Severity" in what sense?  Frequency?  Or effect?

I think Latter-day Saint women often feel that a husband looking at porn is a profound betrayal of trust.  And it can make the wife feel degraded and humiliated.

The 24/7 availability of essentially unlimited amounts and types of online porn is a huge problem in our day.  And it is increasingly becoming a problem for women and girls (as consumers).

I think the challenge is that "obscenity" is difficult to define, which makes porn difficult to legislate/regulate.  See here.

I think John Adams had it right when he said this:

In the end, we can't really legislate sexual morality.  Not anymore.  I think we, as a people, no longer share the same moral framework that made past legal regulations of such things feasible.

I think some overestimate the effect. I am not trying to say it is okay but some have treated it as the equivalent of fornication or adultery.

I think it's hard to say what the "effect" is.  It's too subjective, and hence hard to say it has been overstated or understated.

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The new church counseling resources they just released take a very different tack on porn use defining it more as a mental or emotional problem and not necessarily a moral one.

It seems like it has, or should have, a "moral" element.

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I plan to do a thread on the new counseling resources pulling out some of the new instructions if I am ever bored and have time. One of the instructions is to the spouse of the person struggling to make them realize they are not the problem nor does it mean their spouse’s love is a masquerade. Porn satisfies different desires then real intimacy.

It sometimes seems to be used as an unhealthy coping mechanism (much like overeating), whether in response to stress, or fatigue, or boredom, or some combination of these.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have seen women whose addiction to porn is just as severe. Sometimes the difference is that it is erotica and not porn. I helped out at a garage sale for a friend cleaning out a dead relative’s house. The woman seemed to have an avid interest in bodice ripping books. A lady, probably in her 50s, showed up and bought all the books. She tried not to make eye contact.

As a writer I almost envy the genre. Writers at least used to do find/replace on names in those books and sell it again with a different title. They were almost never caught. Twilight was soft erotica.

Still, you are right. Many women do not have the same reaction to erotic visual stimuli. This is good for those it never draw in but bad because it increases the shame for women caught in that net because they feel weak because of it. Even in addiction recovery groups they can feel like their problem is seen as easier to overcome.

I believe there are cognitive tendencies in each gender but I am not sure they are strict differences. The chemical differences are more pronounced. Testosterone is a hell of a drug. Then again, so is estrogen.

I was talking about photos.  In fact, I think written erotica and women's affinity for it - insofar as there is one- defines the difference.

One is direct in - your face crude- stimulation and the other includes stories and often "romance".  This is precisely the dividing line.  

Share this post


Link to post
55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Women do not seem to understand why it is such a problem or that it is such a problem. But discussing actual differences between men and women is verboten.

"Actual differences" being the key phrase here for understanding.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/31/15671

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'd imagine that state laws regarding confessions would apply to a Church court. Of course those laws do vary by state. But that could well be policy. I'll fully admit I don't know what the policy is there and whether it's church wide in the handbook or more tied to Stake Presidents and Area Presidents.

From the Handbook:

“Normally a disciplinary council is not held to consider conduct being examined by a criminal trial court until the court has reached a final judgment. In some cases it may also be appropriate to delay disciplinary proceedings until the period of appeal has expired or the appeal has been rejected.”

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:
55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure I agree. Women in the church often seem to exaggerate the severity of porn use. I still use one online dating app and the number of sisters who have said they will not date anyone who has EVER looked at porn boggles my mind. Then again, many of them are divorced and there is probably a story there. The decision that porn was an “idea” and is protected by the First Amendment was a big mistake. Most porn users are not monsters but many people who would never have become monsters become so with enough porn exposure.

I agree with this but am not sure how this is any "disagreement" with my post.  It is my belief that women for the most part simply do not understand the power over men that porn can have, which is born out by your mind-boggling evidence.   It is a difference that cannot be discussed since it implies that there are cognitive differences between men and women, a topic that forbidden in our society.

Just watch what happens with this comment.  It will be a self-fulfilling event.  :)

Perhaps we can sum things up with the following trite but true statement "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think it's hard to say what the "effect" is.  It's too subjective, and hence hard to say it has been overstated or understated.

It seems like it has, or should have, a "moral" element.

It sometimes seems to be used as an unhealthy coping mechanism (much like overeating), whether in response to stress, or fatigue, or boredom, or some combination of these.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I spoke badly there. It was more that porn use is not necessarily an indicator of moral weakness. Of course there is a moral element to the sin itself.

There are also many mental health conditions that exacerbate the desire for porn and even certain kinds. I sympathize with President Packer when he said that addiction often seems to be an unfair advantage favoring Satan in the war for our souls.

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I was talking about photos.  In fact, I think written erotica and women's affinity for it - insofar as there is one- defines the difference.

One is direct in - your face crude- stimulation and the other includes stories and often "romance".  This is precisely the dividing line.  

If you are viewing porn or reading erotica for the story you are likely to come away very disappointed. They are both trash, just different kinds.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Actual differences" being the key phrase here for understanding.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/31/15671

True, I suspect some of the differences on what kind of sexual stimulation you seek out are socialized. It is expected for boys and girls to seek out different sources so they do.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Women are consuming more porn now. Part of the plan. The porn industry began a big push to make pornography palatable to women back in the 80s. It is really starting to bear fruit now.

Since women appear to be just as likely physically aroused (see link above) but may need additional context to push it to sexual desire/interest, creating a social context of acceptability and feelings of low cost (no big deal, victimless crime, etc) for women as well as avoiding the offensive pitfalls of being degrading to women or otherwise being offensive outside the sexual factor is likely to lead to massive use by women, imo.  Easy, one sided, and no strings works for a lot of women too.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dating-and-mating/201811/how-men-and-women-experience-sexual-desire-differently

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think some overestimate the effect. I am not trying to say it is okay but some have treated it as the equivalent of fornication or adultery. 

Or worse!  There was a whole thread on FMH a few years ago where many women claimed they would rather their husbands had an affair than to look at porn. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Actual differences" being the key phrase here for understanding.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/31/15671

Quote

Evidence from studies examining habituation to sexual stimuli also offers evidence that men and women evaluate sexual stimuli using different strategies. Repeated exposure to sexually explicit slides of men and women typically produces both physiological and subjective habituation of sexual arousal in men (43), but inconsistent results in women.

Furthermore, what the study shows in a crude summary of highly complex information, is that men have a different type of subjective experience than women do while using the same brain areas.

As I have said on numerous occasions, brain activity is no indicator of subjective experience.  

Enumerating the brain areas affected during Joseph's vision has nothing to do with the subjective content of his experience nor "what happened" during the experience, and it appears at least to me that this study acknowledges the difference between previous subjective study results and this more "brain activity oriented" study.

Edited by mfbukowski

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

Or worse!  There was a whole thread on FMH a few years ago where many women claimed they would rather their husbands had an affair than to look at porn. 

And it’s been said that some women would rather be raped than cheated on. I think all of it sucks.

 

Regarding women overreacting to porn- my opinion is that women often will accuse husbands of sexual addiction when discovering porn use.  The term addiction is not helpful and in fact can do harm.  

Sometimes women can get pretty angry and say and believe some pretty interesting things when at the core what they feel is insecure- in themselves or in their relationships. 

Porn is a legit problem.  But that doesn’t mean that porn use indicates addiction. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, MustardSeed said:

Regarding women overreacting to porn- my opinion is that women often will accuse husbands of sexual addiction when discovering porn use.  The term addiction is not helpful and in fact can do harm.  

How so?  Areyou suggesting that addiction to pornography does not exist?

Just now, MustardSeed said:

Sometimes women can get pretty angry and say and believe some pretty interesting things when at the core what they feel is insecure- in themselves or in their relationships. 

Porn is a legit problem.  But that doesn’t mean that porn use indicates addiction. 

But it can indicate addiction, wouldn't you say?

Moreover, the alternative to addiction is volitional disregard of the wife's feelings, the Law of Chastity, etc.  One or the other or both are possible, I think.

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

How so?  Areyou suggesting that addiction to pornography does not exist?

But it can indicate addiction, wouldn't you say?

Moreover, the alternative to addiction is volitional disregard of the wife's feelings, the Law of Chastity, etc.  One or the other or both are possible, I think.

Thanks,

-Smac

I did not state that it doesn’t exist.  It absolutely exists.  

And a wife’s pain is always legit. She is the forgotten element and needs a voice. More. And more accurate. 

However, my experience is that the cry of addiction often is inaccurate and it robs people of getting to the actual Nitty Gritty. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...