High Councilman arrested for filming a woman getting undressed

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or maybe they'll do what this brave girl did in the article. https://www.ksl.com/article/46626086/davis-county-woman-charged-with-felony-child-abuse

Wait, you actually think it's better to leave a child '“trapped” in a basement room with no access to food, water or a bathroom' than to allow that child access to a trusted ecclesiastical figure???

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Wait, you actually think it's better to leave a child '“trapped” in a basement room with no access to food, water or a bathroom' than to allow that child access to a trusted ecclesiastical figure???

Did you read the article?!? They'll, as in the 8 to 11 year old. Read the article and find out what this young girl did. Maybe you're just playin with me. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Did you read the article?!? ... Maybe you're just playin with me. 

I read it. I was wondering if you're just playing with us.

[Tacenda]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I read it. I was wondering if you're just playing with us.

No, I'm saying that this 10 year old wrote a note and slipped it to the neighbor girl and the girl gave it to her mom apparently, and luckily the mom called the cops. What makes you think the bishop is the only way for a child to tell someone?

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, I'm saying that this 10 year old wrote a note and slipped it to the neighbor girl and the girl gave it to her mom apparently, and luckily the mom called the cops.

Yes, very lucky indeed.

Quote

What makes you think the bishop is the only way for a child to tell someone?

I've never said the bishop is 'the only way'. But I work in this space, and consequently I'm a bit informed. I know, for example, that trusted ecclesiastical leaders are one of the main avenues victims have for reporting. We have data on this; it's not just some opinion.

And yet you seem to be hell-bent on removing this option just because people with axes to grind against the Church are currently using this attack line and you've bought it.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes, very lucky indeed.

I've never said the bishop is 'the only way'. But I work in this space, and consequently I'm a bit informed. I know, for example, that trusted ecclesiastical leaders are one of the main avenues victims have for reporting. We have data on this; it's not just some opinion.

And yet you seem to be hell-bent on removing this option just because people with axes to grind against the Church are currently using this attack line and you've bought it.

Oh no I haven't, I've seen several reports of bishops as abusers. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh no I haven't, I've seen several reports of bishops as abusers. 

Of course you have. But you are entirely ignoring the big picture and the solid data that inform it in order to give yourself hand-wringing rights on this topic.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Did you read the article?!? They'll, as in the 8 to 11 year old. Read the article and find out what this young girl did. Maybe you're just playin with me. 

The girl told another kid.  Kids are most likely to feel safe to tell other kids, about 9 out of 10 reports iirc are to children.  Luckily that kid reported it, most don't iirc.  What does that have to do with reporting to bishops?  Are you seriously suggesting we should be promoting kids telling other kids rather than kids telling responsible adults?

(Btw, a third of child abuse is by other juveniles.)

So the last one opportunity to find out from the child...best not to waste it with creating hesitation by removing opportunities the child feels safe imo.  Never fire a librarian  and using thoughtful, researched methods create safe havens in places kids most likely will be, which isn't a police station, but schools and churches and other social activities imo.  And with bishops, we have one huge advantage in that these men don't seek out the calling but are called, so unlike others who may have chosen to place themselves there to get greater access to children, the system doesn't work that way with bishops.  Isnt infallible, but is imo a major safeguard, especially with training to remove many of the risks of using nonprofessionals. (So I am very happy to see training being required now as I have been hoping for since online possibilities were possible.)

Edited August 27, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

The girl told another kid.  Kids are most likely to feel safe to tell other kids, about 9 out of 10 reports iirc are to children.  Luckily that kid reported it, most don't iirc.  What does that have to do with reporting to bishops?  Are you seriously suggesting we should be promoting kids telling other kids rather than kids telling responsible adults?

(Btw, a third of child abuse is by other juveniles.)

So the last one opportunity to find out from the child...best not to waste it with creating hesitation by removing opportunities the child feels safe imo.  Never fire a librarian  and using thoughtful, researched methods create safe havens in places kids most likely will be, which isn't a police station, but schools and churches and other social activities imo.  And with bishops, we have one huge advantage in that these men don't seek out the calling but are called, so unlike others who may have chosen to place themselves there to get greater access to children, the system doesn't work that way with bishops.  Isnt infallible, but is imo a major safeguard, especially with training to remove many of the risks of using nonprofessionals. (So I am very happy to see training being required now as I have been hoping for since online possibilities were possible.)

 

Here are three bishops, and one that is recent and not yet publicised, of those three were former bishops and one was a current bishop! And came to light all in the last two years! I thought it was all about the one person not getting hurt that we need to care about. There are so many non parental adults or friends & neighors a victim can turn to. In fact in my wards growing up, the bishop would be the last person I would think of going to, never felt comfortable with them that way. 

https://www.standard.net/police-fire/year-old-man-accused-of-sexually-abusing-girls/article_609857de-9daa-587a-a1fd-f396e97a3ebd.html?fbclid=IwAR10-L4xJAWLtngNUHhvsaUVKcQQ6bD8mBIRa8ag4-GH0MR2UUSfewOqqnk

https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop

https://nypost.com/2019/08/20/church-leader-busted-for-snapping-photos-of-woman-in-changing-room/

[Maestrophil]

Not that any single case is not horrific - abuse is an intolerable scourge, especially from a trusted ecclesiastical leader - but if you take each reported case and compare it to the number of bishops there are in the world, you will find it represents a tiny sliver of them.  Unfortunate that a few unrighteous people can ruin the pool water for everyone.  I am not opposed to putting protections in place where appropriate so this does not happen, but I fear we are turning the church and it's leaders into boogeymen without cause.

[provoman]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Here are three bishops, and one that is recent and not yet publicised, of those three were former bishops and one was a current bishop! And came to light all in the last two years! I thought it was all about the one person not getting hurt that we need to care about. There are so many non parental adults or friends & neighors a victim can turn to. In fact in my wards growing up, the bishop would be the last person I would think of going to, never felt comfortable with them that way. 

https://www.standard.net/police-fire/year-old-man-accused-of-sexually-abusing-girls/article_609857de-9daa-587a-a1fd-f396e97a3ebd.html?fbclid=IwAR10-L4xJAWLtngNUHhvsaUVKcQQ6bD8mBIRa8ag4-GH0MR2UUSfewOqqnk

https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop

https://nypost.com/2019/08/20/church-leader-busted-for-snapping-photos-of-woman-in-changing-room/

Yes people are bad, majority of people are good.

In the West Virginia case, why didn't the first mother who was told point blank by her own child what was being done to him contact the police in 2008?

In 2012  the police were contacted, the person who called the police was a different mother. 

That guy Escobar, his parents refused to cooperate with police; his parents never told him the police had made contact.

Parents commit abuse, parents fail to prevent abuse, parents fail to report abuse. Parents refuse to cooperate with police. Clergy do those things; teachers do those things; police do those things; people in all manner of positions of trust do those things. 

So what needs to happen to protect every minor?

 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, provoman said:

Yes people are bad, majority of people are good.

In the West Virginia case, why didn't the first mother who was told point blank by her own child what was being done to him contact the police in 2008?

In 2012  the police were contacted, the person who called the police was a different mother. 

That guy Escobar, his parents refused to cooperate with police; his parents never told him the police had made contact.

Parents commit abuse, parents fail to prevent abuse, parents fail to report abuse. Parents refuse to cooperate with police. Clergy do those things; teachers do those things; police do those things; people in all manner of positions of trust do those things. 

So what needs to happen to protect every minor?

 

Do you know that a few or several actually, clergy tell the parents not to go to the police, and that they will handle it and give the abuser a chance to change and go through the repentance process?

ETA: And how would a two deep meeting distract a child from reporting, especially if it's a primary teacher or ?. I'm not saying an older teen or young single adult can't go to the bishop alone though. 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you know that a few or several actually, clergy tell the parents not to go to the police, and that they will handle it and give the abuser a chance to change and go through the repentance process?

. 

 

I’ve had that happen to me personally actually.  Bishop ended up recognizing the error of his ways. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Here are three bishops, and one that is recent and not yet publicised, of those three were former bishops and one was a current bishop! And came to light all in the last two years! I thought it was all about the one person not getting hurt that we need to care about. There are so many non parental adults or friends & neighors a victim can turn to. In fact in my wards growing up, the bishop would be the last person I would think of going to, never felt comfortable with them that way. 

https://www.standard.net/police-fire/year-old-man-accused-of-sexually-abusing-girls/article_609857de-9daa-587a-a1fd-f396e97a3ebd.html?fbclid=IwAR10-L4xJAWLtngNUHhvsaUVKcQQ6bD8mBIRa8ag4-GH0MR2UUSfewOqqnk

https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop

https://nypost.com/2019/08/20/church-leader-busted-for-snapping-photos-of-woman-in-changing-room/

None of these involves a bishop committing abuse during a bishop's interview.

Also, although I respect that you would not be inclined to report abuse to a bishop, many people are so inclined.  It is strange, then, to see some folks so intent on depriving these other people of that resource.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do you know that a few or several actually, clergy tell the parents not to go to the police, and that they will handle it and give the abuser a chance to change and go through the repentance process?

No, I don't know that.  Anonymous anecdotes peddled by an agenda-driven zealot like Sam Young don't really carry much weight with me.

Moreover, if and when a bishop advises parents "not to go to the police," he is doing so in violation of the Church's guidelines, and usually in violation of the law as well.

It is odd, then, to see calls for action against the Church's current policies when those calls are predicated on purported instances of individual bishops not following those current policies.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

None of these involves a bishop committing abuse during a bishop's interview.

Of course not.  I've seen no one claim that's where the actual physical abuse occurs (that would be extremely rare).

The two deep safety practice is to make sure no inappropriate discussions or questioning takes place.   This can be part of a grooming process that may lead to physical abuse.  

(And to be clear....I am certainly not one who believes or claims that ALL Bishops are involved in grooming youth....just stating what frequently does take place where abuse has occurred.)

Edited August 27, 2019 by ALarson

[smac97]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Quote

None of these involves a bishop committing abuse during a bishop's interview.

Of course not.  I've seen no one claim that's where the actual physical abuse occurs (that would be extremely rare).

Then the moral imperative being screamed to the heavens by Sam Young becomes decidedly less imperative.

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

The two deep safety practice is to make sure no inappropriate discussions or questioning takes place.  This can be part of a grooming process that may lead to physical abuse.

I've seen no evidence of bishops using interviews to "groom" prospective victims, either.

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

(And to be clear....I am certainly not one who believes or claims that ALL Bishops are involved in grooming youth....just stating what does take place where abuse has occurred.)

Okay.

Thanks,

-SMac

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do you know that a few or several actually, clergy tell the parents not to go to the police, and that they will handle it and give the abuser a chance to change and go through the repentance process?

Yes, that very definitely has taken place and I've personally witnessed it.  I really believe this happens less and less now....much less.  There are much better guidelines now for leaders to follow and better training as time goes on. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

None of these involves a bishop committing abuse during a bishop's interview.

Also, although I respect that you would not be inclined to report abuse to a bishop, many people are so inclined.  It is strange, then, to see some folks so intent on depriving these other people of that resource.

Thanks,

-Smac

Not depriving them at all. I'm thinking of young children, what's wrong with two deep, say with a primary teacher/president at these set interviews?

Edited August 27, 2019 by Tacenda

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not depriving them at all. I'm thinking of young children, what's wrong with two deep, say with a primary teacher/president at these set interviews?

I would be open to that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

On 8/27/2019 at 1:35 PM, smac97 said:

I would be open to that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for that!

Sadly today there is another one in the news about a former bishop committing child sexual abuse. See why I am saying no one on one for younger children Smac? https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-county-man-sentenced-2-years-for-child-sexual-abuse?fbclid=IwAR3h1BmQC9vPlG4eZry9tjyC7LTaywWLdkotyUBbzkN3ICyhdPEORdp8ENE

And at one time Utah was the highest for child sexual abuse, and that's not because people in Utah report it more, according to a recent article I read.

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for that!

Sadly today there is another one in the news about a former bishop committing child sexual abuse. See why I am saying no one on one for younger children Smac? https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-county-man-sentenced-2-years-for-child-sexual-abuse?fbclid=IwAR3h1BmQC9vPlG4eZry9tjyC7LTaywWLdkotyUBbzkN3ICyhdPEORdp8ENE

Per the article, he was called as a bishop in 1993, meaning he would likely have been released around 1998, or more than 20 years ago. 

The article gives no indication that he abused children while functioning as a bishop, which made me think that KUTV was playing games a bit.  So I pulled up the Information filed against Mr. Fuller (an "Information" is a list of formal charges filed against an individual).  The Information (which was later amended twice) gives more information as to what he did, and to whom.  I won't divulge that information (it's public information, but I don't want to disseminate it more than necessary), except to say that Mr. Fuller's misconduct had nothing to do with him functioning as a bishop.  The charges against him all pertain to conduct that occurred between January 2012 and October 2016, (in other words, probably 13 years or so after he was released as a bishop).  His access to the victim{s} had nothing to do with the Church, or with his previous status as a bishop.  None of the abuse took place on the Church's property or during a Church-sponsored event.

I have some concerns about this sort of news reporting.  How is his 1993-1998 calling as a bishop relevant to his 2012-2016 misconduct?  It's not.  There is no causal connection or relationship at all.  So why bring this up, except perhaps to try to foment ill will against the Church?  Imply some sort of guilt-by-association?

Not impressed with KUTV.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

 

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And at one time Utah was the highest for child sexual abuse, and that's not because people in Utah report it more, according to a recent article I read.

Cfr please. I would like to see how they determine that. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

why bring this up, except perhaps to try to foment ill will against the Church?

At best, an argument might be that inspired church leaders would be able to judge all those called (at least to sensitive callings) as to basic character and thus be inspired to reject anyone with faults in their character that have or will in the past, present, and future led/lead them to abusive actions. 

This type of argument would be based on assumptions that God inspires church leaders in very different ways than the rest of us looking around at what is going on in the world. It would also require God to treat leaders as practically puppets in their calling of others.  

[Rain]

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

Per the article, he was called as a bishop in 1993, meaning he would likely have been released around 1998, or more than 20 years ago. 

The article gives no indication that he abused children while functioning as a bishop, which made me think that KUTV was playing games a bit.  So I pulled up the Information filed against Mr. Fuller (an "Information" is a list of formal charges filed against an individual).  The Information (which was later amended twice) gives more information as to what he did, and to whom.  I won't divulge that information (it's public information, but I don't want to disseminate it more than necessary), except to say that Mr. Fuller's misconduct had nothing to do with him functioning as a bishop.  The charges against him all pertain to conduct that occurred between January 2012 and October 2016, (in other words, probably 13 years or so after he was released as a bishop).  His access to the victim{s} had nothing to do with the Church, or with his previous status as a bishop.  None of the abuse took place on the Church's property or during a Church-sponsored event.

I have some concerns about this sort of news reporting.  How is his 1993-1998 calling as a bishop relevant to his 2012-2016 misconduct?  It's not.  There is no causal connection or relationship at all.  So why bring this up, except perhaps to try to foment ill will against the Church?  Imply some sort of guilt-by-association?

Not impressed with KUTV.

Thanks,

-Smac

I've noticed this kind of thing about our church for decades. I think people should replace "mormon" with "atheist", "jew", "trombonist" etc when reading news to see if "mormon" was actually relevant or not and if it changes how one thinks about the person.  I know it won't work with every article because, as you have shown, important pieces are missing, but it still can enlighten someone about their own thoughts and feelings.