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DeseretNews: Focusing on the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Are you Italian? 

I ask, because Swedish is my second language, and I can’t imagine typical Swedes being confused by the above. 

And I don’t know what living in Utah has to do with it, unless you believe those who live outside of the state are less bright than Utahns. I don’t believe that. 

I’m not Italian. Just pointing out that the Church in Italy can only refer to the Roman Catholic Church. 

In Sweden it can only refer to the Lutheran Church.  It’s the State religion.  Until 2000 that is.

In Utah of course it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. 

Yeah, people are provincial. 

Edited by mrmarklin
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Maybe Scott has inadvertently hit on a possibility. When someone asks what church I belong to , I could just say , " I belong to Christ'schurch " 

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11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I thought it went without saying that it would be clear in the context of the conversation what Church was meant. Of course you would explicitly give the full title of the Church early on in the conversation, but thereafter you can get by with saying just “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ” in subsequent references. 

I’m sorry this wasn’t clear to you. 

If you say "The Church" in Italy, everyone assumes you are referring to the Catholic Church.  

Things are a bit different outside of Utah.  Few people know what LDS means. No one knows what "the Church of Jesus Christ" refers to.  

This is all going to fade away after President Nelson leaves office.  Not because he doesn't have a valid point, but because the name of the Church is unworkable in so many instances.  The AP will go back to using the full name of the Church in its first usage and then Mormon after that.  

When the Church can't provide workable usages such as Mormonism, or what to call members, then what do Church leaders expect will happen?  I think the moderators of this web site  along with all the other "Mormon" websites using that name agree.  You can't just magically take out the word Mormon and slip in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ask Prince how his symbol worked out.  It was just as unworkable.  How about the church formally known as the Mormon church.

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11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m sure you’re right about that. 

And yet we have somehow gotten by without a shorthand way of expressing ourselves when we refer to the set of all things pertaining to the Seventh Day Adventists. 

You honestly can't see the difference in unwieldiness between Seventh Day Adventists and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

There is a reason why one works and the other one doesn't

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11 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I’m not Italian. Just pointing out that the Church in Italy can only refer to the Roman Catholic Church. 

In Sweden it can only refer to the Lutheran Church.  It’s the State religion.  Until 2000 that is.

In Utah of course it’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. 

Yeah, people are provincial. 

Of course, I never said one should neglect to establish the context by explicitly identifying the church by full and formal name at least once and early on in the conversation. You misunderstood me if that’s what you thought. 

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7 hours ago, california boy said:

You honestly can't see the difference in unwieldiness between Seventh Day Adventists and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

There is a reason why one works and the other one doesn't

Seventh Day Adventists are commonly called Adventists.

Everyone knows what that means. 

Just like everyone knows what "Mormon" means.B:)

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Posted (edited)
On 8/23/2019 at 3:27 AM, california boy said:

If you say "The Church" in Italy, everyone assumes you are referring to the Catholic Church.  

Things are a bit different outside of Utah.  Few people know what LDS means. No one knows what "the Church of Jesus Christ" refers to.  

This is all going to fade away after President Nelson leaves office.  Not because he doesn't have a valid point, but because the name of the Church is unworkable in so many instances.  The AP will go back to using the full name of the Church in its first usage and then Mormon after that.  

When the Church can't provide workable usages such as Mormonism, or what to call members, then what do Church leaders expect will happen?  I think the moderators of this web site  along with all the other "Mormon" websites using that name agree.  You can't just magically take out the word Mormon and slip in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ask Prince how his symbol worked out.  It was just as unworkable.  How about the church formally known as the Mormon church.

What outside persons and groups do is up to them, but I would expect professing members of the Church to follow the direction from the president of the Church on this matter. I think it is a question of loyalty and integrity. 

I haven’t seen an updated edition of the Associated Press Style Book, so I don’t know what the current practice of the AP is with respect to identifying the Church. I do know that the AP typically follows the expressed preference of a news making group with regard to what it is called and that it would be irregular for the AP to ignore such preference. And its member news organizations tend to follow the AP guidelines in style and usage. I say that from some 40 years of professional experience.

If, as you imply here, the AP has been compliant up to now, that belies your contention that the expressed preferences are not workable. 

Edited to add: I found this article from March about a revision to the AP Style Book with regard to the name of the Church. It seems quite cooperative. Bear in mind that the style book is the Bible for the Associated Press on matters of style and usage and that many of its member organizations mostly follow the style book themselves:

Quote

 

SALT LAKE CITY — The Associated Press has updated its style on references to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

“We are changing our style on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church in 2018 began moving away from the widely recognized terms Mormon church and LDS church, and now prefers that its full name be used and that members be referred to as Latter-day Saints,” the AP Stylebook account tweeted.

 

We are changing our style on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church in 2018 began moving away from the widely recognized terms Mormon church and LDS church, and now prefers that its full name be used and that members be referred to as Latter-day Saints. (1/4)

 
 
 
 

The stylebook's Twitter account recommended the following guidelines for newsrooms and writers who follow AP style:

  • Use the full name of the church on first reference.
  • For second references, use phrases such as "the church," "church members," "members of the faith" (without quote marks).
  • "Mormon," "Mormons" and "Latter-day Saints" are acceptable only “when necessary for space or clarity or in quotations or proper name,” according to the AP.
  • The AP recommends including a short explanation about the church when mentioning its full name. The account explains, “The term Mormon is based on the church's sacred Book of Mormon and remains in common use by members of the faith.”

Flashback: The church updated its guidelines back in August 2018 with a style guide that said, "Please avoid using the abbreviation 'LDS' or the nickname 'Mormon' as substitutes for the name of the Church, as in 'Mormon Church,' 'LDS Church,' or 'Church of the Latter-day Saints.'"

 

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What outside persons and groups do is up to them, but I would expect professing members of the Church to follow the direction from the president of the Church on this matter. I think it is a question of loyalty and integrity

It’s absolutely not a question of loyalty and integrity. I’m allowed to disagree with the presidents decision or new policy and still very much support him in his calling. I would still claim to have my integrity and am still loyal to church. 

On this specific topic I’m trying to do my best, but honestly I forget sometimes and just use Mormon. However, disagreeing or ignoring certain counsel from a leader does not ruin or compromise your immediate trust in a person nor your integrity.

I disagree (sometimes strongly) with my wife on certain things but I don’t force her to think my way, and vice versa. Yet I’m promise you I’m just as loyal to her as ever! 

Just a thought though, don’t want to distract from the point of the OP.

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8 hours ago, california boy said:

You honestly can't see the difference in unwieldiness between Seventh Day Adventists and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

There is a reason why one works and the other one doesn't

You missed the point of the exchange between Miserere Nobis and me. 

What is the single-word noun, comparable to “Mormonism,” that identifies the culture, practices, beliefs, history, mindset, etc. of the Seventh Day Adventists? I said I can’t think of one. If you can’t come up with one, then my point is made. 

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3 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

It’s absolutely not a question of loyalty and integrity. I’m allowed to disagree with the presidents decision or new policy and still very much support him in his calling. I would still claim to have my integrity and am still loyal to church. 

On this specific topic I’m trying to do my best, but honestly I forget sometimes and just use Mormon. However, disagreeing or ignoring certain counsel from a leader does not ruin or compromise your immediate trust in a person nor your integrity.

I disagree (sometimes strongly) with my wife on certain things but I don’t force her to think my way, and vice versa. Yet I’m promise you I’m just as loyal to her as ever! 

Just a thought though, don’t want to distract from the point of the OP.

One is certainly allowed to disagree and even ignore or defy the Church President on this matter, but doing so does bring one’s loyalty into question. 

(And let’s not confuse the matter: Slipping up or forgetting from time to time is quite a different thing than utterly refusing to comply.)

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45 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Seventh Day Adventists are commonly called Adventists.

Everyone knows what that means. 

Just like everyone knows what "Mormon" means.B:)

What single-word noun is the functional equivalent of “Mormonism” for the Seventh Day Adventists?

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59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What outside persons and groups do is up to them, but I would expect professing members of the Church to follow the direction from the president of the Church on this matter. I think it is a question of loyalty and integrity. 

I haven’t seen an updated edition of the Associated Press Style Book, so I don’t know what the current practice of the AP is with respect to identifying the Church. I do know that the AP typically follows the expressed preference of a news making group with regard to what it is called and that it would be irregular for the AP to ignore such preference. And its member news organizations tend to follow the AP guidelines in style and usage. I say that from some 40 years of professional experience.

If, as you imply here, the AP has been compliant up to now, that belies your contention that the expressed preferences are not workable. 

I personally have yet to see an article not use the word Mormon in the body of the copy except Church controlled publications coming out of Utah.  Perhaps they are out there.  I just. haven't seen them.  Have you?  I would love to see an article that has managed to wrestle with this issue outside of Church controlled publications that have to deal with the general public.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You missed the point of the exchange between Miserere Nobis and me. 

What is the single-word noun, comparable to “Mormonism,” that identifies the culture, practices, beliefs, history, mindset, etc. of the Seventh Day Adventists? I said I can’t think of one. If you can’t come up with one, then my point is made. 

Aventistism.

Their name is often shortened to Adventists.  No confusion with any other church or organization.

Edited by california boy

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I'm wondering if Mahonri Moriancumer was offended when he was referred to as the brother of Jared.

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21 minutes ago, california boy said:

I personally have yet to see an article not use the word Mormon in the body of the copy except Church controlled publications coming out of Utah.  Perhaps they are out there.  I just. haven't seen them.  Have you?  I would love to see an article that has managed to wrestle with this issue outside of Church controlled publications that have to deal with the general public.

What do you mean by “Church-controlled publications coming out of Utah”? If you mean the Salt Lake Tribunr, that is absolutely laughable. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One is certainly allowed to disagree and even ignore or defy the Church President on this matter, but doing so does bring one’s loyalty into question. 

(And let’s not confuse the matter: Slipping up or forgetting from time to time is quite a different thing than utterly refusing to comply.)

On this matter, maybe. But there have been things in the past that presidents have taught that ignoring or defying would be advisable, and many people did ignore those things and yet they continued loyalty the church. 

It might “call into question” their loyalty, but they can be, and often are, still loyal. Not everything presidents or apostles say is revelation and sometimes it’s their opinions which are perfectly valid to ignore (but is often wise to heed) since it is not the voice of the Lord.

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22 minutes ago, california boy said:

Aventistism.

Their name is often shortened to Adventists.  No confusion with any other church or organization.

I don’t think there is such a word. 

There is a similar word you might be going for, adventism, but it is not precisely the functional equivalent of Mormonism. It refers to a historic movement in Protestantism that comprises a group of churches of which the Seventh Day Adventists are only one. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

On this matter, maybe. But there have been things in the past that presidents have taught that ignoring or defying would be advisable, and many people did ignore those things and yet they continued loyalty the church. 

It might “call into question” their loyalty, but they can be, and often are, still loyal. Not everything presidents or apostles say is revelation and sometimes it’s their opinions which are perfectly valid to ignore (but is often wise to heed) since it is not the voice of the Lord.

On this matter, President Nelson has been quite clear and explicit.  

Furthermore, he has the clear backing of scripture. And there have been similar admonition over the years by the Brethren, though admittedly not quite this rigid. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

On this matter, President Nelson has been quite clear and explicit.  

And I agree with him on this matter. I was just pointing out that disagreement or ignoring certain announcements does not automatically equal dis-loyalty or a loss of integrity. 

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2 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

And I agree with him on this matter. I was just pointing out that disagreement or ignoring certain announcements does not automatically equal dis-loyalty or a loss of integrity. 

I have no quarrel with that. 

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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t think there is such a word. 

There is a similar word you might be going for, adventism, but it is not precisely the functional equivalent of Mormonism. It refers to a historic movement in Protestantism that comprises a group of churches of which the Seventh Day Adventists are only one. 

Definition of Adventism. 1 : the doctrine that the second coming of Christ and the end of the world are near at hand. 2 : the principles and practices of Seventh-Day Adventists.
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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What do you mean by “Church-controlled publications coming out of Utah”? If you mean the Salt Lake Tribunr, that is absolutely laughable. 

Yeah that is funny.  I was thinking more the Deseret News 

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On 8/20/2019 at 5:50 AM, california boy said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints might like the newer nicknames better because the new nicknames at least have the name of Christ in them.  But they are still nicknames and not the name the Savior asked the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to use.

Who named the church in Book of Mormon times?

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

Yeah that is funny.  I was thinking more the Deseret News 

You didn't fully answer the question. What do you mean by "Church-controlled publications coming out of Utah?"

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7 hours ago, california boy said:

I personally have yet to see an article not use the word Mormon in the body of the copy except Church controlled publications coming out of Utah.  Perhaps they are out there.  I just. haven't seen them.  Have you?  I would love to see an article that has managed to wrestle with this issue outside of Church controlled publications that have to deal with the general public.

Here's one!

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/our-communities/souwester/Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-plans-Bridgwater-temple-393153831.html

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