Clearing the Financial Record

[Teancum]

Could somebody help me out here. I have look all over the New Testament to find where Christ or the Church thought it necessary to abrogate their right to privacy, and placate the distrust of overly suspicious members and critics, by publicly disclosing the finances of the Church.

There is evidence to suggest that tithes and offerings were collected. But, I have been unable to find any annual statements

[Edward Lalone]

RCHIII (formerly tetriforce)

".....even though they been audited by the US government..."

Oh really? when? what department or bureau of the US Govt.?

do you have a reference number or file name?

I've seen this written before here, but NEVER backed up with solid info or any documentation.....

Here is a report on the financial examination of Beneficial Life Insurance Company which is owned by the Corporation of the President.

Here is a report on the financial examination of Deseret Mutual Insurance Company

Here is a report on the financial examination of Prudential Hospital Association

The Internal Revenue may not audit a church unless it has a reasonable belief that the Church does not qualify for tax-exempt status, or that the Church is not paying taxes on an unrelated business.

To provide you with a reference number or file name will not accomplish anything since you wouldn't be able to confirm if such an audit took place since the public does not have access to such audits. If the government were to release such information to the public than the Church would be able to sue the Government for a violation of their privacy, and their rights under the Constitution, federal and state laws. There are numerous documents, and reports that provide information as to the profit entities that are owned by the Church. If you desire to review these reports and you meet the legal requirements to do so contact the local, state and federal agencies responsible for those reports.

[tapped]

Sorry, not what was mentioned/claimed. REPORTS are not the same as AUDITS.

Nice try(?) to a suggested claim that the church's records had been audited and no irregularities found.

As many have said, we active LDS are not alleging any irregularities, it's just that ALL people's work tends to be a bit better when they have to account to someone for accuracy/correctness.

Our leaders are not exempt from the urge to make things shiny & nice, that's another reason for an "indepentent audit" (if there ever was such a thing).

[Moksha]

What does the Church and the Mafia have in common?

Lack of financial disclosure .

Financial disclosure would hurt the Mafia but help the Church.

[tapped]

(Outshined)

You mean like the government? The Church has been audited by the US government, and no discrepancies were found.

Further info: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/o..._church_eom.htm

O.K. But; Did (just me) did I miss the part about the "The church has been audited by the US government, and no discrepancies were found."?

I guess I'll either have to A) read it again, more closely, or conclude that post was a False trail? or...maybe both?

Of what I read, the link was to a self-serving explanation that did little/nothing to satisfy my curiosity about church funds. I wonder if some poor soul recited the same type of blather at the 'report' just after the Hofmann incident....

[tapped]

It is being posted/claimed/alleged on other boards that funds donated to-for the "Perpetual Education Fund" are being abused. It is said that:

A) The church is not sending the donated funds to the intended recipients...That instead, the church is banking the principle and CO-SIGNS for (local) loans to the RM-students. The church is thereafter ONLY involved if the student defaults (will the church later act against those students who defaulted?).

the funds that donors thought was going to students from other countries is actually being used to 1) build the wealth of the church 2) pay other church expenses 3) invested in church held instruments.

IF TRUE, (to me) this would be a Gross mis-representation, and Very unethical.

HMMM: I WONDER...WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PRINCIPLE OF THE "PERPETUAL IMMIGRATION FUND"?

But...will we ever 'know"????

[wenglund]

I am not an overly suspcious member.

Now that's funny.

Granted, you may not be at the "Black Helicopter" extreme that Tapped (and perhpas Moksha) appears to have reached. But, the fact that you think the discontinuance, nearly a half century ago, in publishing certain financial records by the Chruch, somehow makes "it looks like the leaders are hiding something" (the thought never crossed my mind), clearly defines you as suspicious, if not overly suspicious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

You are all missing the point. There is auditing, accountability and checks throughout the system. The problem is there are Eeeeeevil Mormons in charge all the way through. And we all know that they are brainwashed and controlled by the special microwave signals coming from the angel moroni on the temples rendering them incapable of independent thought.

In a side note I was going to skip shaving this morning, but the moment I walked past the sink, my hand involuntarily shot out and grabbed my razor. Living within an hour of a temple must make the signals stronger.

[tapped]

Common Information is a necessary part and pre-requsite for 'common consent'

Else the consent is just pointless; it leads to us trusting what we do not know. That leads to a 'cult of personality' where leaders expect their followers to 'just trust us'. That is Jim Jones kinda trust (blind obedience), it does not benefit either the rank-and-file OR the leaders.

please don't engage in personal attacks or mention my screen name, that is not becoming human to human interaction, even though we are using screen names.

"We are people of action. Lies are not befitting us"

[Guest johnny_cat]

Seems a bit odd to in one sentence equate church leaders with Jim Jones and a cult of personality and accuse the rank and file of blind obedience, and in the next ask people to refrain from personal attacks.

Can't we discuss this without insulting one another?

[Moksha]

In our never ending quest for new members, would we ever tell them ,

"...by the way, the Church has not been financially accountable to its members since 1959..."

and we are very proud of it. By not releasing the records, it shows we have nothing to hide .

By then the investigator would be running the other way.

I can just see the blinded by obedience posters coming up with all their goofy reasons and excuses why this blemish on the Church is a good thing.

It is not A GOOD THING. It is disreputable and should not be part of the Church with a true Gospel.

If we love the Church we should not be part of the cover-up!

[pchan]

What cover up? Let me tell you what would happen if the churches financial records were out there for all to see. Mary Chip on her shoulder Primary president would whine about how much money Peter chip on his shoulder Young Men's Pres. is getting. Jack Anti Mo would publish to the world that the mormons are greedy because the new Temple is costing 6 zillions dollors and people are starving all over the world.

It comes down to this IMO the LDS Church is, or is not not God's church on this earth. The First Pres. and the Twelve Apostle are, or are not called of God. And you trust those placed in aurhority or you do not. Make your choice by your actions ie. paying or not paying your tithing, but questioning the integrity of these men is out of line. I am sure that there are men working in the church office building that are not the honest men that they should be but I do not doubt the integrity of GA's who have oversight in these matters. Let them do their jobs.

[Janey]

I want to correct the misinformation about the GAs living stipends from back on page 2 or thereabouts. The living stipends are paid from investment income. Some of the Church's money is invested in stocks, real estate and so forth. The income generated by these investments is used for the GA stipends.

Also, one reason I heard for the Church's paranoia about privacy is the length of the Church's institutional memory. They still remember when the federal government confiscated all their assets and nearly shut them down entirely back when they were enforcing the anti-polygamy laws. Finances and assets are a secret because we still cherish our persecution complex.

[wenglund]

Common Information is a necessary part and pre-requsite for 'common consent'

Else the consent is just pointless;

True.

But why is it that most of us feel entirely capable, as things now stand, of making an informed consent, and you don't?

Could it be that most of us aren't scouring every nook and cranny with a magnifying glasses looking for the least hint of dirt, or chasing down every X-file claim regardless of how incredible the source, but have chosen instead the more practical and evenhanded approach in giving Church leaders the benefit of the doubt and rightly acknowledging the wealth of their honorable and commendable service?

Whatever the case may be. If you don't feel you have sufficient information to consent, then DON'T.

Is that so hard to understand?

it leads to us trusting what we do not know.  That leads to a 'cult of personality' where leaders expect their followers to 'just trust us'.  That is Jim Jones kinda trust (blind obedience), it does not benefit either the rank-and-file OR the leaders.

This is an embarrassingly absurd comparison.

We aren't talking about the Church asking people to knowingly drink poisoned Kool Aid and die. We are talking about voluntary, charitable contributions to fullfil the three-fold salvific mission of the Church, and to help to those in need (physically and spiritually).

We aren't talking about a fly-by-night organization. We are talking about 175-year-old, highly reputed, honorable, Christ-led institution.

We aren't talking about a single crazed leader whose congregants are at the mercy of his whims. We are talking about hundreds of deeply committed, loving, competent people intent on doing good and bringing about the salvation of mankind, with various spiritual and physical safegaurds to prevent wrong-doings.

Now, were there to be credible evidence of Church leaders enriching themselves on the charitable offerings of members, or of wrong-doing (the baseless gossip of chronocally discontented regarding the PEF, doesn't count), instead of the mountain of evidence to the contrary, where the moneys have actually been put to great use towards the charitable ends intended, then perhaps there would be at least some reason to give consideration to your shrill, terribly unfair, and ridiculous conspiracy mindset.

But, as things stand, you have obviously lost all sense of proportion, understanding, and credibility, and don't even warrant consideration by Art Bell's Coast-toCoast radio program.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Tapped (Ooops...am I not supposed to mention your anonymous screen name?),

I found your post interesting enough to give it prominent attention here:

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=182606

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[snow]

I want to correct the misinformation about the GAs living stipends from back on page 2 or thereabouts. The living stipends are paid from investment income. Some of the Church's money is invested in stocks, real estate and so forth. The income generated by these investments is used for the GA stipends.

With all due respect, that money began as tithing funds. The tithing funds get invested in business ventures ( the world) and the profits pay the "stipends". ( however we do not know if it is a stipend or a salary)

My only curiosity is what does the tithing dollars get invested into. What business and companies are getting that influx of investment money. I don't think that money is being taken, but I think that some are curious as to what companies and products are benefiting. The church has alot of money invested in babylon. I really don't care, just curious.

[Blink]

With all due respect, that money began as tithing funds. The tithing funds get invested in business ventures ( the world) and the profits pay the "stipends". ( however we do not know if it is a stipend or a salary)

That is not necessarily 100% accurate, Snow. Often, the money is from estates that people will to the church.

[Moksha]

I am more than curious, I am down right interested because I care about the Church.

Making the Church look suspicious, sneaky and disreputable by hiding the financial report from its own members, is not good stewardship.

Sticking your heads in the sand makes matters worse.

[Moksha]

I would say, that those of us who truly love the Restored Gospel, want the Church to be beyond reproach.

That means being open and aboveboard, not playing shady games of why it is necessary to keep things hidden.

As the Church of the Restored Gospel our ethics should be the highest, not merely what we can get away with.

Only those with their hand in the till should fear the light of day.

[snow]

The reason I said I don't care and am only curious is that I don't pay tithing to the church anymore. I feel like if I'm not donating I can only be curious. Its kinda like voting. You can whine about an election if you voted

[Teancum]

It is being posted/claimed/alleged on other boards that funds donated to-for the "Perpetual Education Fund" are being abused. It is said that:

A) The church is not sending the donated funds to the intended recipients...That instead, the church is banking the principle and CO-SIGNS for (local) loans to the RM-students. The church is thereafter ONLY involved if the student defaults (will the church later act against those students who defaulted?).

the funds that donors thought was going to students from other countries is actually being used to 1) build the wealth of the church 2) pay other church expenses 3) invested in church held instruments.

IF TRUE, (to me) this would be a Gross mis-representation, and Very unethical.

HMMM: I WONDER...WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PRINCIPLE OF THE "PERPETUAL IMMIGRATION FUND"?

But...will we ever 'know"????

What other boards ands where is info from.

This is troublesome allegation.

Was there any substance to it?

Teancum

[Teancum]

I am not an overly suspcious member.

Now that's funny.

Granted, you may not be at the "Black Helicopter" extreme that Tapped (and perhpas Moksha) appears to have reached. But, the fact that you think the discontinuance, nearly a half century ago, in publishing certain financial records by the Chruch, somehow makes "it looks like the leaders are hiding something" (the thought never crossed my mind), clearly defines you as suspicious, if not overly suspicious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Why?

And why do you object to dislosure?

Teancum

[Blink]

Was there any substance to it?

How will we ever know?

[vistamod]

I want the church to make full disclosure because as one earlier poster stated, "Jesus Christ tells Gordon Hinkley exactly what to do with the money"

If you thought following the investments and trading of Warren Buffet was a good thing to follow, just imagine what kind of insider advantage one would have knowing where Jesus Chrsit Himself wanted his money to be invested.

Something is telling me that shopping mall development, insurance and television/radio stations is the way to go. If only I knew exactly which ones Jesus invested in.

[vistamod]

WWJI?

Where Would Jesus Invest?