Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ALarson

Ed Smart, father of Elizabeth Smart, Announces he is gay

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Something tells me you wouldn’t be as fiercely critical of a “covenant-breaking” woman who previously married her girlfriend, chose to adopt and raise babies together, yet ultimately divorced her wife after converting to Christianity....

You are engaging in a whole lot of misdirection in this post (as well as many of your posts).  Lesbian marriages (as well as homosexual) are not valid in God's eyes.  There are no covenants for wicked arrangements.

24 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Similarly, I imagine you wouldn’t be as critical of converts to the LDS Faith who break the covenants they made as members of their former religious Faiths to join Mormonism. 

When new converts join the church, they understand there is only one "TRUE" church and that any religious rituals they participated in have no validity and meaning for their new perspective.  This is why they are baptized (regardless of whether they were previously) because of the necessity of accepting the Priesthood authority and to begin their journey on the "Covenant Path".

31 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Perhaps I’m wrong, and you actually suggest gay couples who dissolve their martial vows and members of other Faith who break their sacred commitments are immoral covenant-breakers who lack integrity, as well.

Homosexual marriage is nothing more than a diabolical propaganda ploy by the adversary to undermine the true basic unit of the family as ordained by God.  So sad how many people are "outraged" by the supposed inequality between the basic unit and other contrived "social constructs".

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes indeed.

Odd, two reactions points for agreeing with my comment. Methinks, I must have upset some? 😪

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did.

I once had a couple who came in with the wife ready for divorce. She had discovered after 20 years of marriage that her husband found other women attractive. She felt that if he truly loved her he wouldn't be attracted to anyone else.  She felt even more betrayed because this had apparently been going years and she never knew.  She acknowledged that he hadn't cheated or even flirted with any of these women; she even admitted that he was kind and loving. But still she demanded that unless he fixed his problem, the marriage was over.  I thought she was being unreasonable at the time.  Though in fairness, I absolutely did not think she "had to stay in her marriage." I do, however, think it was extremely selfish of her to harm her children by seeking a divorce. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, kllindley said:

I once had a couple who came in with the wife ready for divorce. She had discovered after 20 years of marriage that her husband found other women attractive. She felt that if he truly loved her he wouldn't be attracted to anyone else.  She felt even more betrayed because this had apparently been going years and she never knew.  She acknowledged that he hadn't cheated or even flirted with any of these women; she even admitted that he was kind and loving. But still she demanded that unless he fixed his problem, the marriage was over.  I thought she was being unreasonable at the time.  Though in fairness, I absolutely did not think she "had to stay in her marriage." I do, however, think it was extremely selfish of her to harm her children by seeking a divorce. 

I don’t think it should be an automatic given the spouse walks if suddenly they find out their loved one doesn’t see things the same way or even has misrepresented or outright lied about how they felt.  I think efforts should be made to see if a new relationship can be negotiated and forged into a stronger, more loving, more honest one  

But I don’t think anyone should be locked into a relationship they see as they were tricked into accepting of counseling or prayer or just talking about it doesn’t resolve those issues, even if they weren’t as I think that will lead to resentment, bitterness, and hate.  And all those may invalidate a covenant imo. 

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've been thinking about this and almost made a comment similar to yours. In Catholicism, part of the sacrament of confirmation is our making promises with God concerning the Catholic faith. If Mormons convert a Catholic, they are asking that Catholic to break those promises.

I don’t understand how some members who see temple covenants as unbreakable for any reason can be so dismissive of others’ covenants reasoning ours are the ‘only ones that count’, are seen as only authorized. If it is about pure integrity, then a promise is a promise by their rules as far as I can tell, even when the promise is made with false understanding.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Can you even conceive that either party could be choosing to divorce for reasons that don’t include sex...?

HELLO!!!

There are MANY illegitimate (in the eyes of God) reasons for getting a divorce.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Calm said:

A man covenanted to God to sacrifice the first thing that came out his door if he won the battle to save Israel. 

It was his only child, his daughter; not his dog. 

Is it healthy to keep that covenant?

He did by the way.  Man of integrity even if his daughter had to die so he could keep his word. Nothing in the scripture indicates God was pleased. 

That doesn't sound like a covenant to me.  More like an unrighteous oath. What did Jesus say about oaths?

Marriage, especially in the Temple, is a covenant with God. But then, you know that.

Edited by Vance

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why do you go to sex first and apparently only as a reason for filing for divorce?

Well, let's see, he came out as gay, and you said

Quote

Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did.

Sounds to me like it is YOU that went to sex first. Does he love her any less or differently just because he came out of the closet?

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Is having sex with someone not your spouse the only way someone can break a covenant in your view?

Absolutely not, and no where have I expressed nor implied it. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Calm said:

And sometimes that means walking away from what were in reality childish dreams and choices, such as an unwed mother wisely choosing to give a desired baby up for adoption when unable to care for them herself rather than raise the child in traumatic surroundings, lacking proper care. 

Sorry, but an unwed mother didn't make a covenant before God, angels, family and community to cleave to a spouse and none else.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's odd that you don't even know the basic details of the situation, like her filing for divorce, and yet have made such high mighty statements about the situation.

Maybe you should just mind your own business on this one.

So, I missed one line it the OP.  That doesn't negate my points in any way.  And since you aren't engaging with my points, I will just ignore you snide remark.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Vance said:

Divorce is always associated with unhappiness.  It is either the cause or the result.  So no, divorcing is NOT consistent with a healthy relationship.

Surgery is associated with unhappiness. It is either the cause or result, often both. But surgery can be consistent with a healthier body. Likewise, so can divorce be consistent with healthier people and relationships. 

Edited by Meadowchik
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, longview said:

Homosexual marriage is nothing more than a diabolical propaganda ploy by the adversary to undermine the true basic unit of the family as ordained by God.  So sad how many people are "outraged" by the supposed inequality between the basic unit and other contrived "social constructs".

This is really sad.  Sad that you said this, and sad that others had to read it.  With opinions like this, it is no wonder so many feel there is no place for them in the church. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I suppose choosing not to murder may be an acceptable choice for individuals too rather than divorce. Healthy relationships may actually mean working on the relationship jointly and in a committed manner.

Maybe if you used blowing people up or running over them with a car. Oh, I know, better yet, cutting them up in small pieces it would have more of an impact. I love exaggerations. It just makes conversations to much more worthwhile. 

(I did not introduce murder as a comparison, just responded to Vance's use of it.)

I agree that exaggerations are less productive.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Vance said:

 

Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did.

Sounds to me like it is YOU that went to sex first. Does he love her any less or differently just because he came out of the closet?

Love and sex are two different things.  Nothing Calm said had anything to do with sex. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, longview said:

The Church has always taught that prospective spouses must carefully consider compatibility in finances, lifestyles, traditions, etc.  Why would you accuse the Church of causing "unnecessary suffering" ?

Depending on the reasoning process used, I suppose.  If you have a warped perspective, counseling with the Lord and consulting with Bishops and Stake Presidents and marriage counselors hopefully will clarify the issues.

Playing musical chairs should be the way to go.  Should not add any more stress on the community or keep anyone for needlessly jumping ship.  What about the children?   And so many other complications and ripple effects.

Yes, I remember the teaching about caution, I heard it for the first time several years into my marriage. The teaching about how two righteous people can make it? That was well-drilled into me by my teen years.

Your other comments don't really invite thought or compassion.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Vance said:

That doesn't sound like a covenant to me.  More like an unrighteous oath. What did Jesus say about oaths?

Marriage, especially in the Temple, is a covenant with God. But then, you know that.

Cannot unrighteousness oaths occur in the temple?  Do you assume all temple covenants are confirmed by the Spirit?  If they are not, are they just n force?

Jephthath meant well, he thought he was being righteous apparently.

Quote

fThen the Spirit of the LORD was uponJephthah, and he passed through Gilead andManasseh and passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to theAmmonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to theLORD and said, “If you will give the Ammonitesinto my hand, 31 then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be theLORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.”

 

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Vance said:

Sorry, but an unwed mother didn't make a covenant before God, angels, family and community to cleave to a spouse and none else.

How do you know God accepted all the covenants made before him?

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Vance said:

So, I missed one line it the OP.  That doesn't negate my points in any way.  And since you aren't engaging with my points, I will just ignore you snide remark.

It also means you didn’t read the article itself as well as not paid close attention to multiple other posts (at least 7, possibly 9) it was mentioned in. 

Complaining about someone else not engaging you.....

Edited by Calm
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Vance said:

Being "gay" is NOT a valid excuse to get a divorce.  Unrepentantly engaging in homosexual acts IS a valid reason for the non homosexual spouse to file for divorce.

Unless Smart is, or is planning on, engaging in sexual acts with ANY one other than his wife, or if his wife is being unfaithful, there is no valid reason for their marriage to be dissolved.

40-45% members of the Church get divorced, yet you  proclaim in your wise position to judge that being gay is not a reason for divorce.  

 

The least informed have the simpelest answers.

 

Edited by california boy
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

My impression was there was a discussion trying to understand how and why Brother Smart could, would divorce his wife of decades.  I agree that there was another discussion that speculated on reasons - the motivations for the two discussions are different.

I also think you are plying that holier than thou schtick a little too thickly.

When couples break up or divorce, I do think people wonder what brought them to that place. However, I also think as divorce has become so prevalent that it does not occur as much as it once did. 

Why does speculation and gossip about his personal life have to be a part of discussing anyone’s divorce. Is it because judging others is so much fun?   

‘If you view me as being holier than thou for reminding members of a Church that I am not even a member of that gossip and judgemental speculation of a member that is really struggling right now is not part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then how sad is that?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, california boy said:

The least informed have the simpelest answers.

 

I have to personally attest to this. The more I learn, the more I am aware of the enormous amount there is to learn, and how I have so much more to learn. This thread has caused me to reflect on how grateful I am for people here, including you, who were willing to walk through ideas with me as I was learning, even if it was a debate. So, thanks!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...