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ALarson

Ed Smart, father of Elizabeth Smart, Announces he is gay

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8 minutes ago, Vance said:

And peoples' reasons for killing each other are their own as well.  But that doesn't make it right.

Lovely false equivalence.  Well done.

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13 minutes ago, Vance said:

I didn't say it WAS taking place here.

 

So then, why bring it up here (sex) if it’s not relevant to this specific topic?  

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15 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

People murdering others is not a healthy relationship. People deciding to divorce can be consistent with a healthy relationship.

Sorry, but divorcing is NOT consistent with a healthy relationship.

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13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So then, why bring it up here (sex) if it’s not relevant to this specific topic?  

It needed to be said.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Vance said:

It needed to be said.

It absolutely did not need to be said, if it wasn’t relevant to this specific topic (Ed Smart’s situation).

Maybe start a new thread if you believe that it needs “to be said”.

Edited by JulieM
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2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:
On 8/16/2019 at 9:27 PM, longview said:

Infidelity is not always the same thing as having an affair.  But regardless, when he married his wife he made a covenant in a three-way relationship.  The third point of the triangle was with God.  The highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom requires a husband/wife partnership.  This entails being worthy and trustworthy enough to be allowed to invite intelligences to become their spirit children and to proceed with the next Eternal Round for implementing the Plan of Happiness.  Bro. Smart not only slimed his wife he also turned against God.  He has failed the test.

To be clear, then, it naturally follows that from your view, all LDS divorces are the result of infidelity.

Yes, most definitely.  In other words, anything that causes a marriage to fail can be considered a violation of integrity:  with oneself, with the spouse, with forebears, with posterity and against God.  Very often both parties can have faults or serious sins.  A divorce need not happen if either or both parties can acknowledge their imperfections and are willing to be humble, meek, contrite or do whatever it takes to submit to God's Will.  The Power of Atonement can be applied incrementally over days, months, and years to bring greater peace and harmony.  Unfortunately, too many do not have the "longview" to persevere to make that possible (With God all things are possible).

I disagree with Calm's disposition for taking covenants lightly.  God's commandments should not be considered too harsh or too difficult.  They should be seen as life savers and keeping them is the best option for obtaining peace, prosperity and enlightenment.  President Nelson spoke recently about staying on the "Covenant Path".

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, longview said:

Yes, most definitely.  In other words, anything that causes a marriage to fail can be considered a violation of integrity:  with oneself, with the spouse, with forebears, with posterity and against God.  Very often both parties can have faults or serious sins.  A divorce need not happen if either or both parties can acknowledge their imperfections and are willing to be humble, meek, contrite or do whatever it takes to submit to God's Will.  The Power of Atonement can be applied incrementally over days, months, and years to bring greater peace and harmony.  Unfortunately, too many do not have the "longview" to persevere to make that possible (With God all things are possible).

I disagree with Calm's disposition for taking covenants lightly.  God's commandments should not be considered too harsh or too difficult.  They should be seen as life savers and keeping them is the best option for obtaining peace, prosperity and enlightenment.  President Nelson spoke recently about staying on the "Covenant Path".

I think this insistence depends on the premise that any righteous man and woman can have a successful marriage. This premise has, since it's been taught in church, caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering.

No, integrity does not always mean staying together. Integrity on the part of both parties can result in divorce. 

Personally, I have no desire to be in a marriage where either my spouse or I are staying in it because we are afraid of divorce. What a miserable way to live. I want to know we stay because we want to stay. 

Edited by Meadowchik
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13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think this insistence depends on the premise that any righteous man and woman can have a successful marriage. This premise has, since it's been taught in church, caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering.

The Church has always taught that prospective spouses must carefully consider compatibility in finances, lifestyles, traditions, etc.  Why would you accuse the Church of causing "unnecessary suffering" ?

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No, integrity does not always mean staying together. Integrity on the part of both parties can result in divorce. 

Depending on the reasoning process used, I suppose.  If you have a warped perspective, counseling with the Lord and consulting with Bishops and Stake Presidents and marriage counselors hopefully will clarify the issues.

20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Personally, I have no desire to be in a marriage where either my spouse or I are staying in it because we are afraid of divorce. What a miserable way to live. I want to know we stay because we want to stay. 

Playing musical chairs should be the way to go.  Should not add any more stress on the community or keep anyone for needlessly jumping ship.  What about the children?   And so many other complications and ripple effects.

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4 minutes ago, longview said:

 Should not add any more stress on the community or keep anyone for needlessly jumping ship.  What about the children?   And so many other complications and ripple effects.

If children are being abused, a divorce is best.  I speak from personal experience, that’s why this topic is an emotional one for me.  My Mom stayed, so the kids (us) were still in the home being abused.  That was wrong and divorce should have taken place years before it finally did.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

It absolutely can be.  Not all marriages are healthy. Many relationships can be healthy outside marriage, and there are married people who interact more healthily when they end their marriage. 

One of the most gentle, compassionate, and insightful perspectives of divorce that I have seen is from Helen M. Luke. It certainly seems to mirror at least some of the sentiments of Ed Smart’s letter to his family:

Quote

“Divorce doesn’t always mean that a marriage has been a failure. There are some marriages in which both partners have been true to their vows and have grown through the years into a more adult love.

Yet a time may come when unlived parts of their personalities are striving to become conscious. The situation may then arise in which it becomes obvious that if they remain together, these two who basically love and will always love each other may fall into sterility and bitterness, if they do not have the courage to accept the suffering of parting.

Their quest for wholeness may then demand that they ignore the outer laws of church and society in order to be true to the absolutely binding inner vow: ‘to love and to cherish from this time forward’.

One does not have to be living with a person, or even to see him or her ever again, in order to love and cherish through everything. A conscious acknowledgement of failures and unshaken devotion to the love that sets free, can turn a divorce into a thing of positive beauty; an experience through which a man or a woman may bring, out of the suffering, a purer love for all future meetings.

The divorce is then a sacrificial, not a destructive act, and the original marriage may remain, in the deepest sense, procreative to the end of life.”

(from The Way of Woman, by Helen M. Luke).

Edited by Daniel2
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2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It absolutely can be.  Not all marriages are healthy. Many relationships can be healthy outside marriage, and there are married people who interact more healthily when they end their marriage. 

Divorce is always associated with unhappiness.  It is either the cause or the result.  So no, divorcing is NOT consistent with a healthy relationship.

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2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

What’s ironic is your focus entirely on the gay spouse without mentioning any of the straight spouse’s behaviors which may have contributed to the divorce itself.

What is ironic is YOUR focus entirely on the gay part of my statement and totally ignoring the non gay portion. 

2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

The woman I married was mentally and emotionally abusive to both myself and children; I’m not making this up, it was substantiated by Department of Child and Family Services and my court ordered therapists during our divorce process. The last two years before I left her she became physical (throwing things at me, hitting me with her fists, breaking down our bathroom door after I locked myself inside to try to get away from her, and ultimately threatening me with a kitchen knife as she was screaming at me, which was the last straw and caused me to leave and never go back). 

I endured 8 years of emotional hell at her hand.... and the reason I endured that long was the fear and guilt I took upon myself that if our marriage failed, it would be MY fault because I was attracted to men. I endured her abuse because a) my self-loathing self thought I deserved it, and b) I thought God would hold me accountable if I didn’t make my marriage work. 

After years of my dad having witnessed her behavior, at the time I told my parents I had finally left my wife, my own extremely-devout LDS and very anti-divorce father told me that there is no way he would have lasted 6 months, let alone 8 years.

I made my own mistakes and wasn’t perfect, but neither was I ever emotionally or physically abusive.  I also was open to and did actively participate in individual and couples therapy; my ex-wife refused to engage with either, and instead blamed me for all the problems in our marriage. 

Like I said, Divorcing is not consistent with a healthy relationship.

2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

My experience is clearly not Ed and Lois Smart’s.... but I wanted to share because many here are acting as if the gay spouse in these scenarios is the culpable sinner. Marriage and divorce are never black and white. 

ANY one engaging in a sexual relations outside of God's approved bonds of marriage between a man and a woman IS THE CULPABLE SINNER!.

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3 hours ago, ALarson said:

Do you also believe they "were really stupid" when members here posted the same accusations and speculations and applied them to Ed Smart?

And that they don't apply to his situation either?

AL, I think I have already stated that I had not read the majority of the posts. The context and the manner it was written I just found to be poorly proposed and off topic. 

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

People murdering others is not a healthy relationship. People deciding to divorce can be consistent with a healthy relationship.

I suppose choosing not to murder may be an acceptable choice for individuals too rather than divorce. Healthy relationships may actually mean working on the relationship jointly and in a committed manner.

Maybe if you used blowing people up or running over them with a car. Oh, I know, better yet, cutting them up in small pieces it would have more of an impact. I love exaggerations. It just makes conversations to much more worthwhile. 

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3 hours ago, JulieM said:

It absolutely did not need to be said, if it wasn’t relevant to this specific topic (Ed Smart’s situation).

Maybe start a new thread if you believe that it needs “to be said”.

It needed to be said.  If Smart is leaving his marriage to somehow satisfy his own sexual proclivities, then his soul is in danger for God will hold him accountable.

The fact that he has willingly and openly elevated his "gay"ness to be a major portion of his identity, clearly indicates which direction those proclivities point, if indeed this whole sordid and sad affair is driven by them.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I agree, I think that was my argument, why get a divorce? I believe in the redemptive power of Jesus Christ, that he is able (as he did for the Nephites, or any righteous for that matter) to make any burdens become light, no matter the burden, no matter the struggle, he IS able. He can and will take upon him our burdens, and we can take up his yoke, with is easy. Far too often we believe that “our burdens” are too great, that God is unwilling, but this is not so. We cannot help our feelings, and there is no condemnation for having them, but we can choose our actions, this I believe. I fear that my words may be understood incorrectly, I love members of this family, and pray for all, and compassion for all, I pray this is what is coming through, if not my sincere apologies. 

Yes, I think you have presented one valid option. It is those who are suggesting one stay married by lying about one’s thoughts and feelings the rest of their lives as if there is something noble in forcing others to live by their rules based on lies that I am disagreeing with.  I see that as intentional manipulation, exercising unrighteous dominion or control over another through dishonesty.

There is nothing noble or enlightened or refining or protective in long term lying to adults in your life about who you really are. How can a couple be one flesh when half is just a ghost, the other not understanding the person they love is in reality an empty puppet?  Children need parents for security, but security based on a lie will not give them peace, but will teach them never to trust themselves. 

Honesty can be gentle, protective, but it must also respect the agency of others, whether they choose to stay and make something new or to move on to heal. 

You can’t force healing by lying. You just build on sandy foundations. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I begged my parents to divorce.  Their marriage was destroying everything around them.

I doubt it was their "marriage" that was destroying everything but rather their behavior being inconsistent with Christ's simple admonition to treat others they way you would like to be treated.

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2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think this insistence depends on the premise that any righteous man and woman can have a successful marriage. This premise has, since it's been taught in church, caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering.

No, integrity does not always mean staying together. Integrity on the part of both parties can result in divorce. 

Personally, I have no desire to be in a marriage where either my spouse or I are staying in it because we are afraid of divorce. What a miserable way to live. I want to know we stay because we want to stay. 

Part of "integrity" is the maintenance of the covenants and promises one has made.

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8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

don't think this can type of flexibility can apply to marriage covenants because the covenant itself involves three individuals - the couple and God. I will admit that in this area I belong to an old school of scriptural thinking that divorce and then remarriage is unacceptable to God. I have no problem with a divorce, but a huge problem with remarriage. This considerably influences my view of how individuals treat the marriage covenant. 

What if they entered the marriage unaware of the truth which if known would have stopped them choosing to be married***?  Are they required to live by their covenant or not?

***the example of the woman sealed to a missionary before being aware he had other wives. 

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7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This post is very nice, I'd gush but don't want to embarrass you Calm. :)

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