Ed Smart, father of Elizabeth Smart, Announces he is gay

[Jeanne]

Post removed

[JulieM]

18 minutes ago, Vance said:

ANY one engaging in a sexual relations outside of God's approved bonds of marriage between a man and a woman IS THE CULPABLE SINNER!.

Then as far as any of us know, no one is sinning in the situation (divorce) being discussed here.  So, it’s best not judge or accuse either of the ones involved .

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

I think all he wants is a yes or no answer to this question:

Do YOU BELIVE that the Priesthood Ban was instigated as a result of the Prophet (at that time) receiving a revelation from God?

(Unless I'm misunderstanding).

You seem to be refusing to answer yes or no.....is that because you feel that's not possible?  If so, just say that you're not able to answer yes or no.....and move on...

I think he is giving additional info thinking it shows his reasoning while you see it as avoidance. 

I see him as answering informatively myself. 

[Daniel2]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, I think you have presented one valid option. It is those who are suggesting stay married by lying about one’s thoughts and feelings the rest of their lives as if there is something noble in forcing others to live by their rules based on lies that I am disagreeing with.

There is nothing noble or enlightened or refining or protective in long term lying to adults in your life about who you really are. How can a couple be one flesh when half is just a ghost, the other not understanding the person they love is in reality an empty puppet?  Children need parents for security, but security based on a lie will not give them piece but will teach them never to trust themselves. 

Honesty can be gentle, protective, but it must also respect the agency of others, whether they choose to stay and make something new or to move on to heal. 

You can’t force healing by lying. You just build on sandy foundations. 

This is beautifully said, Calm.

Thank you so much for sharing your insight.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I had to go back and find this "poll" that you mentioned in a later post and stated no one took it. 

Seriously, these are supposed to be real questions. I don't even see how they apply. Let's put it in a different context that is more applicable to the situation. Wife announces to the world she is a lesbian and after decades of marriage and at the ripe old age of 64 wants a divorce from her mate and husband. Do others think - SHE was, is, or had an affair? Do they speculate she is a sex addict? etc.

That is not what happened though  

The wife files for divorce.  The husband announces he has been struggling all his life with attractions he didn’t want to have and the last two years he has been facing his situation as honestly as he could.  He is therefore sharing with family and friends he is gay.  He adds divorce is the next step, but iirc he does not say if he wanted it too or just believed his wife should have the right to leave without him fighting her on it.

Assuming he was the one who pushed for divorce or that he acted on SS sexual feelings prior to telling his wife or his family is unnecessarily filling in the gaps.

When my sister found out her husband was gay, she wanted the divorce so fast, not him.  He was not blameless and there was reason besides homosexuality the marriage failed, but my understanding is she was the one who severed the ties (and widely) .

Assuming there is only one type of story and judging by that imagined scenario is not righteous judgment imo  

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

impression was there was a discussion trying to understand how and why Brother Smart could, would divorce his wife of decades

Since she filed, a likely reason is because she asked for one.

But without them specifying it is speculation outside of simply saying they were unhappy with things as they were, I think it is gossip and unnecessary.  We don’t and can’t know the whys when they aren’t shared with us.

What purpose is served by speculation?  It does not help us understand the reality since we may be wrong in our speculation. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Vance]

Post removed

[Vance]

Post removed

[Daniel2]

47 minutes ago, Vance said:

Part of "integrity" is the maintenance of the covenants and promises one has made.

Part of wisdom and growth is recognizing when one has made irrational, unsustainable, and unhealthy covenants and promises that lead to self-destructive thoughts and behaviors and destabilize mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health.

Part of adulthood is putting away such childish things and making restitution as best as one is able for previous mistakes and unkept-yet-unrealistic promises.

Part of compassion is learning to avoid judgment and condemnation, and instead learn to forgive others and one’s self when all of the above happen. 

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 

One of my favorite songs, courtesy of John Denver:

It’s in every one of us

 

to be wise.

 

Find your heart

 

Open up both your eyes,

 

We can all know everything

 

without ever knowing why.

 

It’s in every one of us

 

By and by.

 

It’s in every one of us 

 

I just remembered 

 

It’s like I been sleeping for years,

 

I’m not awake as I can be,

 

but my seeing’s better,

 

I can see 

 

through the tears,

 

I’ve been realizing that,

 

I bought this ticket 

 

and watching only half of the show,

 

There is scenery and lights

 

man’s a cast of thousands,

 

who all know

 

what I know

 

and it’s good

 

that it’s so.

 

It’s in every one of us

 

to be wise.

 

Find your heart

 

Open up both your eyes,

 

We can all know everything

 

without ever knowing why.

 

It’s in every one of us

 

By and by.

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Daniel2

[Calm]

I appreciate all the points from those who repped me, but trying to help the mods keep the thread on target. 

Will modify to a more general comment to say a woman has the right to walk away from a covenant she didn’t make imo, as in she intentionally wasn't  given important information before she got married.  To me, that amounts to a forced marriage, not one freely entered.  No one should be locked into a marriage the attributes of which they were intentionally not informed about or even lied to about.

For example, there is a difference between intentionally not being told one spouse is incapable or refuses to have children prior to being sealed than rather finding out afterwards when they can’t conceive.  I don’t believe we can truly covenant based on lies, especially when God is involved (why would he confirm such a covenant?)

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

15 hours ago, longview said:

disagree with Calm's disposition for taking covenants lightly. 

Right....

I treat covenants very seriously, saying they need to be more than just words but have real meaning backing them and refusing to see what at times is essentially paperwork because those involved didn’t understand what they were doing out of ignorance or immaturity as writing in stone and instead saying covenants with God and each other need to be written in the heart and soul...that is treating covenants lightly?

I am suspecting you don’t understand what I am saying. 

Add-on:  probably few people do with that run on sentence, what I mean is if someone is clueless about the covenant they are making, I think it is more respectful to the covenant and God to allow them to do what they must do to come to an understanding of what is required of them rather than expecting them to continue to stumble through life locked into a prison of ignorance through what amounts to a empty promise in my opinion. How can we promise what we don’t have to give?  A contract to sell something is meaningless if we don’t possess what we are trying to sell. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Daniel2]

6 minutes ago, Vance said:

Irresponsibly dissolving a marriage covenant is sin. And that IS what is apparently going on here.

Since Mrs. Smart filed for the divorce, your words seem to imply she’s being irresponsible. 

What evidence is there that either Mr. or Mrs. Smart are being irresponsible in their actions?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, longview said:

The Church has always taught that prospective spouses must carefully consider compatibility in finances, lifestyles, traditions, etc.  Why would you accuse the Church of causing "unnecessary suffering" ?

But one can’t know everything prior to a marriage, can one?  Does the Church also teach only in the case of marriage is learning from our mistakes only okay up to a point. 

Even in cases of parenthood, where a careless, uninformed (he said he would marry me, but he ran! How could that happen?) decision results in a baby, the Church teaches it is a blessing to all involved if the parents are not capable of providing a good home or a good parental relationship for the child, they should pass on their responsibility to someone who is better able to do so.  They do not teach stick with it no matter what as it is a sin to give up and just be accountable for that child for the rest of your life even if that means the child has to suffer.

[Vance]

21 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Part of wisdom and growth is recognizing when one has made irrational, unsustainable, and unhealthy covenants and promises that lead to self-destructive thoughts and behaviors and and destabilize mental health.

So, making and keeping covenants with God are unhealthy?

Making and keeping covenants with God leads to self-destructive thoughts and behaviors?

Making and keeping covenants with God leads to destabilized mental health?

You need to contact the prophet and let him know.

Quote

Part of adulthood is putting away such childish things and making restitution as best as one is able for previous mistakes and unkept-yet-unrealistic promises.

Part of adulthood is taking responsibility for you commitments and actions and sacrificing your desires for the good of others.

Quote

Part of compassion is learning to avoid judgment and condemnation, and instead learn to forgive others and one’s self when all of the above happen. 

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 

 

Part of compassion is making righteous judgments and condemnations when appropriate.

 

ALL: Posters who want to rail at the people involved or bash the church over two individuals' choices will have their posts removed or be suspended.

[CV75]

"Divorce can be justified only in the rarest of circumstances. In my opinion, “just cause” for divorce should be nothing less serious than a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that destroys a person’s dignity as a human being." James E. Faust, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2007/04/enriching-your-marriage?lang=eng

Using this as a standard, as long as "unjustified" divorce is still redeemable by the grace of God* (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/divorce?lang=eng), I see no reason to quibble over -- or worse, to politicize -- the reasons for a couple divorcing, even if the two are not in agreement to divorce. The personal nature of this decision is commensurate with the sacredness of the covenant.

* "The kind of marriage required for exaltation—eternal in duration and godlike in quality—does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law."

[Vance]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tell that to his wife. Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did. Tell her she once again has no choice in the matter because a man is making that decision on her choices for her. 

So she is the one filing for divorce?  So it is all about sex with her? 

If he has not broken his covenants, then she has no business dissolving their marriage.

[Daniel2]

4 hours ago, longview said:

Yes, most definitely.  In other words, anything that causes a marriage to fail can be considered a violation of integrity:  with oneself, with the spouse, with forebears, with posterity and against God.  Very often both parties can have faults or serious sins.  A divorce need not happen if either or both parties can acknowledge their imperfections and are willing to be humble, meek, contrite or do whatever it takes to submit to God's Will.  The Power of Atonement can be applied incrementally over days, months, and years to bring greater peace and harmony.  Unfortunately, too many do not have the "longview" to persevere to make that possible (With God all things are possible).

I disagree with Calm's disposition for taking covenants lightly.  God's commandments should not be considered too harsh or too difficult.  They should be seen as life savers and keeping them is the best option for obtaining peace, prosperity and enlightenment.  President Nelson spoke recently about staying on the "Covenant Path".

Something tells me you wouldn’t be as fiercely critical of a “covenant-breaking” woman who previously married her girlfriend, chose to adopt and raise babies together, yet ultimately divorced her wife after converting to Christianity.... 

Similarly, I imagine you wouldn’t be as critical of converts to the LDS Faith who break the covenants they made as members of their former religious Faiths to join Mormonism. 

If so, why do you think that is...?

Perhaps I’m wrong, and you actually suggest gay couples who dissolve their martial vows and members of other Faith who break their sacred commitments are immoral covenant-breakers who lack integrity, as well. 

[Vance]

13 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Since Mrs. Smart filed for the divorce, your words seem to imply she’s being irresponsible. 

What evidence is there that either Mr. or Mrs. Smart are being irresponsible in their actions?

See my response to calm above.

[Daniel2]

5 minutes ago, Vance said:

So she is the one filing for divorce?  So it is all about sex with her? 

If he has not broken his covenants, then she has no business dissolving their marriage.

Can you even conceive that either party could be choosing to divorce for reasons that don’t include sex...?

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Vance said:

making and keeping covenants with God are unhealthy?

A man covenanted to God to sacrifice the first thing that came out his door if he won the battle to save Israel. 

It was his only child, his daughter; not his dog. 

Is it healthy to keep that covenant?

He did by the way.  Man of integrity even if his daughter had to die so he could keep his word. Nothing in the scripture indicates God was pleased. 

Leaving this post because I think Jephthah? is a great example of someone assuming they are making a covenant with God and having the ‘integrity’ to follow through...but the implications of what he chose to honor and be faithful to (human sacrifice) are horrific and one of the worse sins possible if not confirmed as appropriate by God, which the Bible doesn’t indicate as confirmed or ordered by God, but there is no condemnation of it and his other actions are confirmed according to the scripture. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

nvm

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Nvm. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

"Divorce can be justified only in the rarest of circumstances. In my opinion, “just cause” for divorce should be nothing less serious than a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that destroys a person’s dignity as a human being." James E. Faust, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2007/04/enriching-your-marriage?lang=eng

Using this as a standard, as long as "unjustified" divorce is still redeemable by the grace of God* (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/divorce?lang=eng), I see no reason to quibble over -- or worse, to politicize -- the reasons for a couple divorcing, even if the two are not in agreement to divorce. The personal nature of this decision is commensurate with the sacredness of the covenant.

* "The kind of marriage required for exaltation—eternal in duration and godlike in quality—does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law."

Thank you for posting these. This is pretty much my view, better stated (assuming I am interpreting correctly). As an FYI, I do not view sexual transgression as the only behaviour that leads to a irredeemable relationship.  I think it is wishful thinking to believe that only sexual betrayal can lead to that level of pain or disconnection. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

nvm 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Mods, let me know if I should remove posts that quoted Vance’s deleted posts. 

please