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smac97

It's Official: Vaping is a No-Go for Latter-day Saints

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21 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

Thanks,

-Smac

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

How far we have fallen as a Church where we must be instructed in all things. As President Trump would say, Sad!

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Interestingly, the New Era articles states that the difference between black tea and green tea is that the leaves have been fermented.

Isn't that also the difference between wine and grape juice?  Fermenting?

By New Era logic, grape juice should also be prohibited by the Word of Wisdom.

 

It is Reiss that sees the difference in the process or something as sole importance in determining what should and shouldn't be allowed, not Church leadership imo

Edited by Calm

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11 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

How far we have fallen as a Church where we must be instructed in all things...

The D&C is full of examples of people asking the prophet Joseph to instruct them in what they should do.

Edited by Calm
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6 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

How far we have fallen as a Church where we must be instructed in all things. As President Trump would say, Sad!

I don't follow.  Are you saying the Church's recent counsel on vaping is not a correct principle?

Thanks,

-Smac

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21 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

Thanks,

-Smac

People vape different things - not just tobacco. Need I say more? Since tobacco is expressly against the word of wisdom I would agree vaping it is still not following the word of wisdom. I might consider vaping AC/DC or Charlotte's Web [high CBD/low THC cannabis] though if I were in chronic pain. Nothing new under the sun here IMHO. 

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3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, I’m agreeing with you on the point that the New Era is making. 

Black tea and green tea are made from the same leaves, but one is fermented and the other is not. 

My point is they similarly, grape juice and wine are both made from grapes, but one is fermented and the other is not.  

Why does the fermentation not make a different when it comes to tea leaves but it does make a difference when it comes to grapes?

Because tea in all it's forms is prohibited by the WoW but grapes are allowed as long as they aren't mixed with alcohol?  That's why the fermentation does not make a difference with tea leaves and does with grapes, right?

I guess I'm not understanding where your confusion is coming from.   Isn't your question kind of like asking why fermentation doesn't make a difference when it comes to cabbage (it's allowed whether it's fermented into sauerkraut or not) but does when it comes to grain?  

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Vamping....Are the lungs equipped to clean themselves?  If not, makes more sense to use a body system intended for ingestion.

Edited by Calm

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6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, I’m agreeing with you on the point that the New Era is making. 

Black tea and green tea are made from the same leaves, but one is fermented and the other is not. 

My point is they similarly, grape juice and wine are both made from grapes, but one is fermented and the other is not.  

Why does the fermentation not make a different when it comes to tea leaves but it does make a difference when it comes to grapes?

"Prudence" (D&C 89:10-11). Black and green tea, whether fermented and dried or not, falls under the rubric of "hot drinks" as conceptualized at the time the Word of Wisdom was given. Fermented grape juice, is "wine or strong drink" (which is "not good.. or meet") and non-fermented grape juice is "fruit in the season" (which is "wholesome' and "ordained... for the use of man") respectively.

Good things can become corrupted, and corrupting things are not good.

I suppose even black and green tea might have healthful components that might be wisely harnessed through proper pharmacological preparation, no longer classifying them as "hot drinks."

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5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This.

Vaping is not against the Word of Wisdom scripture. 

It's against the Word of Wisdom Church administrative policy today.

Word of Wisdom 2.0 but not the orginal.  Updated in this article to include iced drinks, vaping, and green tea. As opposed to the unofficial supplements of past years such as caffeine, chocolate and soda.

So enjoy the health benefits of snickers, mountain dew, and a nice steak (8oz max).  But avoid the sugar free anti oxidant rich health benefits of green tea.

None of which is in D&C 89.

It is a shame we do not have continuing revelation from heaven because then we could put forward the idea that the changes come from God.

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37 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

How far we have fallen as a Church where we must be instructed in all things. As President Trump would say, Sad!

That is a misuse of that quote considering Joseph Smith handed down specific and detailed commandments and instructions.

So your use of the Trump quotation is even more accurate as he is virtually always wrong when he uses it.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

It is Reiss that sees the difference in the process or something as sole importance in determining what should and shouldn't be allowed, not Church leadership imo

Reiss?

ETA:

The part about fermentation is the New Era article, not Reiss.

Edited by rockpond

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Because tea in all it's forms is prohibited by the WoW but grapes are allowed as long as they aren't mixed with alcohol?  That's why the fermentation does not make a difference with tea leaves and does with grapes, right?

I guess I'm not understanding where your confusion is coming from.   Isn't your question kind of like asking why fermentation doesn't make a difference when it comes to cabbage (it's allowed whether it's fermented into sauerkraut or not) but does when it comes to grain?  

If the article stated that tea, in all its forms, is prohibited by the Word of Wisdom that would be a different discussion. 

The article states that green tea is prohibited by the WoW because it is made from the same leaves as black tea, just without the fermentation.

My point is that citing fermentation as irrelevant  is odd because wine is fermented grape juice.  (Wine is not grape juice with alcohol added in... the fermentation of the grapes is what creates the alcohol.)  Non-fermented grape juice is okay, fermented grape juice is prohibited.  

Alcohol, generally speaking, comes from the fermentation of something that we would normally eat.

So, if you want to extrapolate the logic of Section 89, as this New Era articles seems to want to do, it would make more sense to say that green tea is permitted since it was not fermented. 

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

"Prudence" (D&C 89:10-11). Black and green tea, whether fermented and dried or not, falls under the rubric of "hot drinks" as conceptualized at the time the Word of Wisdom was given. Fermented grape juice, is "wine or strong drink" (which is "not good.. or meet") and non-fermented grape juice is "fruit in the season" (which is "wholesome' and "ordained... for the use of man") respectively.

Good things can become corrupted, and corrupting things are not good.

I suppose even black and green tea might have healthful components that might be wisely harnessed through proper pharmacological preparation, no longer classifying them as "hot drinks."

So where does iced green tea fall?  Not fermented and not hot. 

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As for e cigarettes, my brother was able to quit smoking by switching to e cigarettes and gradually reducing the nicotine content. 

Recreational use of  e cigarettes might be against the word of wisdom, but they can be a tool to help one obey the word of wisdom.

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32 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If the article stated that tea, in all its forms, is prohibited by the Word of Wisdom that would be a different discussion. 

The article states that green tea is prohibited by the WoW because it is made from the same leaves as black tea, just without the fermentation.

My point is that citing fermentation as irrelevant  is odd because wine is fermented grape juice.  (Wine is not grape juice with alcohol added in... the fermentation of the grapes is what creates the alcohol.)  Non-fermented grape juice is okay, fermented grape juice is prohibited.  

Alcohol, generally speaking, comes from the fermentation of something that we would normally eat.

So, if you want to extrapolate the logic of Section 89, as this New Era articles seems to want to do, it would make more sense to say that green tea is permitted since it was not fermented. 

Is the article citing fermentation irrelevant or is it simply explaining the difference between black and green tea for information’s sake?

Edit to add--I don't see it odd to point out that black tea is fermented.  I see it as a bit of a 'fun fact' kind of thing.  A lot of members seem to believe that green tea is a completely different thing than black tea.  Providing the information that it's actually the same thing, just treated differently, seems relevant to me.

If I understand what you are saying (and I might not because I'm still really confused about your concern with the article), it seems like some of your confusion is coming from the idea that the article is trying to extrapolate the logic of section 89 when it talks about fermented black tea. I don't think the article is trying to do that at all.

Edited by bluebell
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16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So where does iced green tea fall?  Not fermented and not hot. 

It is merely a cooled-off "hot drink." Who says "hot" must refer to the temperature when served or imbibed, in enhancement of the "official" interpretation for coffee and tea?

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37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is the article citing fermentation irrelevant or is it simply explaining the difference between black and green tea for information’s sake?

From the New Era article:  "Green tea and black tea are both made from the leaves of the exact same tea plant. The only difference is that the leaves in black tea are fermented and in green tea they’re not. They’re both tea and against the Word of Wisdom."

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Edit to add--I don't see it odd to point out that black tea is fermented.  I see it as a bit of a 'fun fact' kind of thing.  A lot of members seem to believe that green tea is a completely different thing than black tea.  Providing the information that it's actually the same thing, just treated differently, seems relevant to me.

That's fair.  Likewise, the difference between grape juice and wine is that the grapes have been fermented.

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I understand what you are saying (and I might not because I'm still really confused about your concern with the article), it seems like some of your confusion is coming from the idea that the article is trying to extrapolate the logic of section 89 when it talks about fermented black tea. I don't think the article is trying to do that at all.

The article makes the point that green tea and black tea are "both tea and against the Word of Wisdom".  They point out that the difference is that one has been fermented.

My point is that it's a very significant difference.  The difference between grape juice and wine is that it has been fermented and yet we wouldn't say that the are the same thing and both are against the Word of Wisdom.

 

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44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It is merely a cooled-off "hot drink." Who says "hot" must refer to the temperature when served or imbibed, in enhancement of the "official" interpretation for coffee and tea?

Many of us drink milk which has been pasteurized (heated to 212 F).  Is that now a hot drink that should be avoided?

 

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16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Many of us drink milk which has been pasteurized (heated to 212 F).  Is that now a hot drink that should be avoided?

I don't see how milk was ever considered a "hot drink" in a D&C 89 context. However, it can be dangerous, especially unpasteurized. Back in the day, a hippy on the commune was killed by drinking milk. The cow fell on him.

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16 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it would be helpful to explain as part of our manuals The Word of Wisdom starts with Section 89 as a basis, but has been built up with additional counsel from prophets, including even when Joseph was alive with hot drinks being defined by Hyrum as coffee and tea and then later we get added....

Thus The Word of Wisdom (not Section 89) is considered a commandment while Section 89 was not and probably shouldn't be as given (since that is what it says).

We need to stop calling Section 89 The Word of Wisdom, imo.  It is a word of wisdom, just as we have multiple "a new and everlasting" covenants and these may vary over time though they all contribute to The New and Everlasting Covenant.

But most members define The Word of Wisdom as Section 89 so me preaching Section 89 is NOT The Word of Wisdom, but only a word of wisdom would probably be inappropriate new doctrine.

I think that perspective moves onto unstable ground. There is a difference, imo, between scripture and the words of men. IF, big if, a new revelation has been received then it should follow scripture, it must be brought before the body of the Church as sustained as new revelation and added to scripture. 

In the temple only scripture is upheld as the method of commandment and covenant and nothing else. 

The problem is the opinions of men are never the word of God. I distinguish between the two and I have to in order to keep everything straight. The Church may have policies to follow, but they are not revelation. It is the only way I can make history work out properly. 

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21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

LDS Living is now running an article with the headline:  "Church Clarifies Word of Wisdom, Stance on Green Tea..."

Is this the first time the Church has published a position on green tea?  I'm curious if it has been mentioned by a prophet prior.

Yes, it was included as "tea" -- camellia sinensis -- ever since "hot drinks' was first clarified to be coffee and tea. For example: “The Word of Wisdom contains certain very important warnings. It declares that alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee are not good for the body. The revelation says “hot drinks,” but before the revelation was a year old, “hot drinks” were defined to include tea [from the tea plant] and coffee” (Elder John A. Widtsoe, Conference Report, April 1926)."

I think because folks do not understand that green tea is not separate from black tea, they assume it is one of the "wholesome herbs". If they had been keeping the spirit and the letter of the Word of Wisdom, they would have known better LOL

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23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I don't see how milk was ever considered a "hot drink" in a D&C 89 context. However, it can be dangerous, especially unpasteurized. Back in the day, a hippy on the commune was killed by drinking milk. The cow fell on him.

Just asking because you said that iced green tea is a "hot drink" because it was hot at one point in its preparation regardless of the temperature at which one imbibes it.

Pasteurized milk is also hot during its preparation.

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, it was included as "tea" -- camellia sinensis -- ever since "hot drinks' was first clarified to be coffee and tea. For example: “The Word of Wisdom contains certain very important warnings. It declares that alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee are not good for the body. The revelation says “hot drinks,” but before the revelation was a year old, “hot drinks” were defined to include tea [from the tea plant] and coffee” (Elder John A. Widtsoe, Conference Report, April 1926)."

I think because folks do not understand that green tea is not separate from black tea, they assume it is one of the "wholesome herbs". If they had been keeping the spirit and the letter of the Word of Wisdom, they would have known better LOL

Who added the bracketed note "from the tea plant" in your Elder Widstoe quote above?   If the Brethren want to define it as anything that comes from the specific tea plant, in any form, that might be a good way to clarify.

I find the whole WoW tea discussion fascinating. 

The reason its interesting to me is because of how I see it interpreted by active faithful members.  For example, in Argentina (and likely some other South American countries) it is perfectly acceptable for members to drink yerba mate in all its forms.  In my home, my mother (who is as faithful and obedient a member as they come) regularly drank herbal tea.  I know still other members who wouldn't touch an iced green tea from Starbucks if their life depended it on it but they'll down cups of the Oolong tea at chines restaurants throughout their meal.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

From the New Era article:  "Green tea and black tea are both made from the leaves of the exact same tea plant. The only difference is that the leaves in black tea are fermented and in green tea they’re not. They’re both tea and against the Word of Wisdom."

That's fair.  Likewise, the difference between grape juice and wine is that the grapes have been fermented.

The article makes the point that green tea and black tea are "both tea and against the Word of Wisdom".  They point out that the difference is that one has been fermented.

My point is that it's a very significant difference.  The difference between grape juice and wine is that it has been fermented and yet we wouldn't say that the are the same thing and both are against the Word of Wisdom.

 

I get your point but I just don't see it as at all significant, and that's where the confusion lies, for me anyway.   

As far as the WoW is concerned.  As far as what makes grape juice allowed and wine prohibited, the difference between grape juice and wine isn't that one is fermented and the other isn't.  Fermentation isn't against the word of wisdom.  The difference is that one contains alcohol and the other doesn't.  

Lots of fermented things are allowed by the WoW.  Clearly, fermentation, on it's own, has no bearing on whether something is allowed or not.

I can understand if you don't like the way the article was written or believe the author's choice of words was confusing but I don't see how a New Era's article's author's description of how black tea is made could be significant in any way to the current interpretation of the WoW.  

 

 

Edited by bluebell
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23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get your point but I just don't see it as at all significant, and that's where the confusion lies, for me anyway.   

As far as the WoW is concerned.  As far as what makes grape juice allowed and wine prohibited, the difference between grape juice and wine isn't that one is fermented and the other isn't.  Fermentation isn't against the word of wisdom.  The difference is that one contains alcohol and the other doesn't.  

Lots of fermented things are allowed by the WoW.  Clearly, fermentation, on it's own, has no bearing on whether something is allowed or not.

All of those are fair positions that I won't argue with.

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can understand if you don't like the way the article was written or believe the author's choice of words was confusing but I don't see how a New Era's article's author's description of how black tea is made could be significant in any way to the current interpretation of the WoW.  

Reiss' article indicates that the Church considers statements in the New Era to be official positions of the Church.  And the media is reporting it that way as well.

 

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