Gilding the Lily?: Adding Traditions/Customs to Gospel Observances

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am actually saying that, as a matter of principle, she doesn't own a single skirt of any kind.

But a dress then?

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I take issue with your statement!!!!!!!

 

Any one with any self esteem whatsoever wears a Swiss Mechanical Watch.  I prefer my Rolex Submariner, but my first was a Breitling Navitimer.  Both excellent timepieces.  I have others, but don't want to brag on this forum.

Yeah I have garbage and various Quartz watches, but don't really use them anymore.  They were "mistakes" of my youth.

If no one of your acquaintance wears mechanical watches, I'm seriously concerned about the circles in which you move.  You realize that Apostle Uchtdorf wears a Breitling, right?

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But a dress then?

I struggle a bit with this.  I have no problem with people worshiping in pants.  But I prefer to wait until it’s a thing.  

I dress up for the opera, and I appreciate it when others do too.  And I insist shirts are worn by all at the dinner table.  

Im a conformist and appreciate when others are too.  

There are of course extenuating circumstances that preclude standard dress expectations, but when in Rome, and all that.  IMO it’s respectful. 

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I struggle a bit with this.  I have no problem with people worshiping in pants.  But I prefer to wait until it’s a thing.  

I dress up for the opera, and I appreciate it when others do too.  And I insist shirts are worn by all at the dinner table.  

Im a conformist and appreciate when others are too.  

There are of course extenuating circumstances that preclude standard dress expectations, but when in Rome, and all that.  IMO it’s respectful. 

I'm much like you, even in my faith changes. I still hold on to many things in the church, like dressing up for church and all that. Just like people dress up for weddings or special occasions. But to each their own. It could be my conditioning. I'll never forget the reaction I had when a gal in my ward came in a beautiful pantsuit many years ago. I'd never seen any woman not wearing a dress to Sac mtg before, I was quite impressed that she didn't care what we all thought and was herself.

BTW, I was just trying to understand Hamba's comment, if it were a dress and not a skirt or pants. I could care less if it's pants. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Tacenda

[mrmarklin]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Free?  

 

Fine Swiss timepieces are actually quite expensive. 😍

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Free?  

 

Fine Swiss timepieces are actually quite expensive. 😍

Status symbols often are. Keeps the riff raff from getting their hands on them and trying to imitate their betters.  

Edited August 15, 2019 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Handbook 1:

“The ward clerk and ward executive secretary work closely with the bishopric, but they are not members of the bishopric and do not need to be released when the bishopric is reorganized.”

The clerk and secretary attend Bishopric meetings but they are there as an aide to the Members of the Bishopric though in practice their counsel and advice is equal to anyone else’s in the meeting. They are still not a part of it. Members of the Bishopric are functioning High Priests and part of the Stake High Priest Quorum and clerks and secretaries are not. They do not preside if the Bishopric is all absent, the Elder’s Quorum President does. They cannot set people apart to callings, extend callings, etc.

As a ward clerk I like it this way. I get to be informed of everything major going on in the ward, can usually give input on major decisions, and get access to almost every report the bishop gets so I can find any data I need or want to identify trends or problems that need to be addressed. All that and if everything goes wrong it is not my fault. Great power without great responsibility.  

Good info, I really liked being ward clerk too, for the same reasons.

Of course as a team leader I think the bishop would be foolish though to make a big deal about the distinction.  Esprit de corps is crucial.

In practice, I think it doesn't make much difference who is in the "bishopric" except when a time comes for a change, and of course who makes the final decision is always the bishop.  But that was never the question.

[RevTestament]

On 8/13/2019 at 4:12 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

LDS congregations in Israel meet on Saturday, and the Sacramental and baptismal liturgies can be said in Hebrew if need be (formal translations were made).

I've heard that the typical Jew in Israel will freely admit that they do not keep the Sabbath. This is because the traditions/takanot of the rabbis has made things so restrictive that the Sabbath is no longer a pleasure. So the average Israeli just does life on the Sabbath. I have a friend living there who says he does not like the orthodox Jews because they are always stirring up trouble/contention. I think he is saying it would be a much more pleasant place without the takanot/rabbinical rules.

[RevTestament]

On 8/13/2019 at 9:23 AM, smac97 said:

Any others?

Which, if any, of these are based on doctrine / scriptures?  

Which are based on tradition/custom?

Which are based on simple convenience?

Which, if any, are problematic in your view?  Why?

Are any of these "gilding the lily" (meaning "try{ing} to improve what is already beautiful or excellent")?

Thanks,

-Smac

I kind of naturally resist being "molded"  even when it is the Lord doing it. When I moved to Utah I found the Church culture to be a little cookie-cutterish for my personal tastes, but was OK with it. I think it might be a bit of a turnoff for more liberal Christians though. I am not convinced the Church should require people to give up cigarettes, tea or alcohol in order to get baptized - little steps - oh boy, the horror.... 

I also have "a story" about Utah wards and music, but it probably extends to most US wards. I think the Church misses out on a lot of beautiful, spiritually uplifting music because of a preset notion of what "reverent" is. I requested to sing Pie Jesu - I would also include an English verse so everyone would know what I was singing. I don't know if that stopped at the music director or higher, but I just don't understand what is wrong with the request. I do understand the need to have some controls on music, but I think that if there is a question, the requester should at least be able to submit a tape or CD or something to show the nature of the music, rather than things getting turned down just because the bishopric is not familiar with it. 

I grew up in churches in which it was common to hear "amen" at the end of musical numbers. They typically did not clap, but here in Utah it is dead silent - even the usual background noise of children is usually absent. i guess that is OK, but I see nothing wrong with a quiet chorus of amens - even the children can participate that way.  

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I kind of naturally resist being "molded"  even when it is the Lord doing it. When I moved to Utah I found the Church culture to be a little cookie-cutterish for my personal tastes, but was OK with it.

I think this "cookie cutter" culture is a hit and miss kind of thing.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I think it might be a bit of a turnoff for more liberal Christians though. I am not convinced the Church should require people to give up cigarettes, tea or alcohol in order to get baptized - little steps - oh boy, the horror.... 

I suppose an argument can be made for that.  However, I think it's better that the Church be up-front about the Word of Wisdom.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I also have "a story" about Utah wards and music, but it probably extends to most US wards. I think the Church misses out on a lot of beautiful, spiritually uplifting music because of a preset notion of what "reverent" is.

Perhaps this is why the hymnbook is being re-done.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I requested to sing Pie Jesu - I would also include an English verse so everyone would know what I was singing.

It's a beautiful song.  For me, I would love to sing Veni Veni, Emmanuel.  That has long been one of my favorites.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I don't know if that stopped at the music director or higher, but I just don't understand what is wrong with the request.

Perhaps not "wrong."

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I do understand the need to have some controls on music, but I think that if there is a question, the requester should at least be able to submit a tape or CD or something to show the nature of the music, rather than things getting turned down just because the bishopric is not familiar with it. 

Perhaps lack of familiarity was not the impetus.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I grew up in churches in which it was common to hear "amen" at the end of musical numbers. They typically did not clap, but here in Utah it is dead silent - even the usual background noise of children is usually absent.

Not sure that's an entirely bad thing.  Silence can have its own beauty.

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

i guess that is OK, but I see nothing wrong with a quiet chorus of amens - even the children can participate that way.  

Sure.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

But a dress then?

According to the OED, a skirt is 'the lower part of a woman's dress or gown, covering the person from the waist downwards; also, esp. in modern use, a separate outer garment serving this purpose'. I realise we all speak different Englishes, but I used the word in that broad sense.

Though now that I think about it, this sister was endowed in the past year and regularly attends the temple, so she may well now own a temple dress? I should ask...

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

According to the OED, a skirt is 'the lower part of a woman's dress or gown, covering the person from the waist downwards; also, esp. in modern use, a separate outer garment serving this purpose'. I realise we all speak different Englishes, but I used the word in that broad sense.

Though now that I think about it, this sister was endowed in the past year and regularly attends the temple, so she may well now own a temple dress? I should ask...

I mean does she wear pants? 

 

Or a dress? Not a skirt. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Amulek said:

Sure. I'm just saying that the main utility that a watch - or any other timepiece, for that matter - provides, and the reason you would wear or carry it on your person, is so that you always have access to the time.

However, with the prevalence of smartphones now, most people already have a device that is capable of providing that same function (and then some) on their person at all times, so wearing a watch of any sort is largely redundant - especially if we're talking about regular, uni-tasking watches and not 'smart' watches. 

 

Pulling your phone out of your pocket is the new normal though, and for a lot of people I bet it's a practice that happens far more often that what is needed to check the time. 

I suspect most people who are used to wearing watches will eventually transition to more modern, smart-wearable options which are all digital anyway. Which is fine by me, so long as I don't have to help with tech support.  

 

I already explained why the wrist watch is not redundant. It provides a level of convenience that I could never reach with a device in my pocket that I have to take out and press a button.

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I mean does she wear pants? 

Or a dress? Not a skirt. 

Dresses have skirts. She wears pants. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I've heard that the typical Jew in Israel will freely admit that they do not keep the Sabbath. This is because the traditions/takanot of the rabbis has made things so restrictive that the Sabbath is no longer a pleasure. So the average Israeli just does life on the Sabbath. I have a friend living there who says he does not like the orthodox Jews because they are always stirring up trouble/contention. I think he is saying it would be a much more pleasant place without the takanot/rabbinical rules.

Actually the percentage of Orthodox, observant Jews has been increasing in Israel (I am not speaking of the Ultra-Orthodox), a state in which it is much easier to keep kosher and follow traditional rules than elsewhere.  Your friend is likely speaking about the Ultra-Orthodox, who do in fact make life difficult for other Israelis -- and who refuse to serve in the Army.  Netanyahu allows this because he needs the ultra-right wing support to give him a majority.

The difference between the Ultra-Orthodox and the regular Orthodox is like night and day.  Do you understand the difference?

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Dresses have skirts. She wears pants. 

Aw, thanks! So she wears pants during Sac Mtg, including her calling as a primary president in sharing time? I'm always curious about your LDS church experience, since it's so different from my experience here in Utah.

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:49 PM, The Nehor said:

I wear a chainmail tie to church occasionally. Formal and also a lifesaver if attacked in a very specific area.

Which is easily defeated with a modicum of dagger, sword, spear, or bow skill. 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

There's a reason wrist watches replaced excellent pocket watches last century.  Convenience.  This still holds.

It's not that they aren't convenient at all - it's that they are only marginally more convenient than something I'm carrying around with me already.

And, even then, it's only marginally more convenient for that one, very specific thing. 

It's like one of those as-seen-on TV cooking gadgets. I mean, sure, if your family consumes an insane number of bananas then maybe it's convenient to have a banana slicer laying around the house, but for everyone else a knife seems to get the job done just fine.

 

Quote

Any one with any self esteem whatsoever wears a Swiss Mechanical Watch.

Because nothing builds self esteem like wearing an expensive, outdated, impractical piece of technology on your arm every day.  

 

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I had to put this meme in, your comment made me think of it. 

You so deserve a Like for this one Tacenda! Thanks for the laugh. I'm looking at these youngsters with the tight pants thinking "what are you thinking?"

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Because nothing builds self esteem like wearing an expensive, outdated, impractical piece of technology on your arm every day.  

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Amulek said:

It's not that they aren't convenient at all - it's that they are only marginally more convenient than something I'm carrying around with me already.

And, even then, it's only marginally more convenient for that one, very specific thing. 

It's like one of those as-seen-on TV cooking gadgets. I mean, sure, if your family consumes an insane number of bananas then maybe it's convenient to have a banana slicer laying around the house, but for everyone else a knife seems to get the job done just fine.

 

But that’s just it: The one specific thing it does I happen to need countless times in the course of a day. The “marginal” convenience of not having to pull a device out of my pocket and press a button when I need to know the time is multiplied each of those countless times. Behold, the convenience is no longer “marginal.”

I can hand cook or bake a variety of food items in my kitchen, including donuts. But if I owned a Krispy Kreme franchise that serviced a huge demand for fresh donuts, I would want to invest in the factory equipment that makes the donuts in great quantities and not rely on the limited capacity of my kitchen. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Good info, I really liked being ward clerk too, for the same reasons.

Of course as a team leader I think the bishop would be foolish though to make a big deal about the distinction.  Esprit de corps is crucial.

In practice, I think it doesn't make much difference who is in the "bishopric" except when a time comes for a change, and of course who makes the final decision is always the bishop.  But that was never the question.

In practice this is what I have seen. It is five people working together to make the ward work with different responsibilities and I have never felt less then because of it.

The only time I bring it up in reality is when there is a meeting or activity that the Bishopric has to attend and I can then point out that I can go home and watch Netflix instead of going.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Aw, thanks! So she wears pants during Sac Mtg, including her calling as a primary president in sharing time? I'm always curious about your LDS church experience, since it's so different from my experience here in Utah.

I have to admit, if a primary president were to wear pants in my region to sacrament meeting and to primary,  it likely would not fly.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Good info, I really liked being ward clerk too, for the same reasons.

Of course as a team leader I think the bishop would be foolish though to make a big deal about the distinction.  Esprit de corps is crucial.

In practice, I think it doesn't make much difference who is in the "bishopric" except when a time comes for a change, and of course who makes the final decision is always the bishop.  But that was never the question.

The more important point, in my view, is to avoid confusing the rank-and-file. In brief, the bishopric holds a position of leadership over ward members; the executive secretary and the clerks do not. 

I believe it was The Nehor who pointed out that in the absence of the entire bishopric, it falls to the elders quorum president to preside, not the clerk or executive secretary. 

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The more important point, in my view, is to avoid confusing the rank-and-file. In brief, the bishopric holds a position of leadership over ward members; the executive secretary and the clerks do not. 

I believe it was The Nehor who pointed out that in the absence of the entire bishopric, it falls to the elders quorum president to preside, not the clerk or executive secretary. 

True.  Yet  I imagine that the bonding which often occurs in a bishopric includes the clerks.