Gilding the Lily?: Adding Traditions/Customs to Gospel Observances

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Not in my ward.  Bow ties are really popular in my neck of the woods.  Even the bishopric counselors wear them on the stand on occasion.   

I had to put this meme in, your comment made me think of it. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

 

 

Regardless, as I said before, I think it's something that will resolve itself with time.

 

Ba Da Baaaaaaa!

We all have our things. But thanks for adding to my list. 

My friend once mentioned all the little kids who only drink a portion of their sacrament cup and then spill all their goobie germs over all the full cups to drop their cup in the center disposal.  Ugh- now I’ve given you one back. 

[MustardSeed]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I had to put this meme in, your comment made me think of it. 

Haha! Indeed.  Short pants and all.  My friends swank son visited from New York and I am serious when I say his pants were at least an inch shorter than peewees here.  

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I had to put this meme in, your comment made me think of it. 

It's so true!!  Even down to the pants that are too short and too tight.  

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ba Da Baaaaaaa!

We all have our things. But thanks for adding to my list. 

My friend once mentioned all the little kids who only drink a portion of their sacrament cup and then spill all their goobie germs over all the full cups to drop their cup in the center disposal.  Ugh- now I’ve given you one back. 

That is so gross and I purposefully make sure that my little kids do not do that, and if they do before I can stop them, I dump the contaminated cups out too.  Seriously, yuck!!

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

My friend once mentioned all the little kids who only drink a portion of their sacrament cup and then spill all their goobie germs over all the full cups to drop their cup in the center disposal.  Ugh- now I’ve given you one back. 

We have a friend who can't stand this either. Her solution: sit on the front row so she has the opportunity to take the sacrament before the trays ever reach any of the little minions.  

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

We have a friend who can't stand this either. Her solution: sit on the front row so she has the opportunity to take the sacrament before the trays ever reach any of the little minions.  

 

You are smart, now for another gross one, people that take the bread and touch other pieces with germy hands.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Amulek said:

So, admittedly, that post was a tad hyperbolic. And it isn't something I would ever actually complain about to a leader. However, it is one of those things that, once you hear, you can't seem to un-hear any longer.

Sort of like how, when my wife and I were first married, we moved into an apartment building which was next to three sets of train tracks. I had honestly never heard a single train whistle in Provo the entire time I had attended BYU up to that point, but after being in our apartment for a bit we both developed what we referred to as 'super-sonic train hearing.'

Suddenly, we could hear trains everywhere - even at great distances - including on campus. It wasn't so much that our hearing had actually changed obviously, but our brains had just developed a sensitivity to picking out the sound of a train whistle among the white noise. 

So maybe that's just me with watches now. Hopefully, you are all able to live your lives in peace and tranquility - completely oblivious to the occasional watch-wearer. Because if you start to hear them in the future, I will have made the world a worse place by mentioning / calling attention to it.  

 

They do seem to be going the way of the dodo. Their primary utility has been replaced by a far more capable device that is now widely carried everywhere.

There are still some Luddites who refuse to get on the cellphone bandwagon here and there, but for the most part I suspect those who continue to wear watches largely do so out of habit or, for lack of a better term, fashion sense. Or perhaps they were/are a collector - that certainly used to be more of a thing, though I'm sure it persists. 

Regardless, as I said before, I think it's something that will resolve itself with time.

 

There’s a false dichotomy here: Wear a watch or carry a smartphone. Ever hear of a silent, battery-operated watch? 

And as much as I love my iPhone, pulling it out of my pocket and pressing a button (assuming I even have it on my person at the time) will never match the convenience of a quick glance at my wrist when I need to know what time it is. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One erroneous assumption I’ve seen creep up in recent years is that the ward clerk and the ward executive secretary are members of the bishopric. They are not. They might be regarded as ancillary staff to the bishopric. But they don’t have the authority, duties, roles, ecclesiastical stature, etc. of the bishop or either of his counselors. They do not conduct meetings, issue callings, receive tithing, conduct temple recommend interviews, act as advisors to auxiliary presidencies, oversee facets of the ward organization. They are not members of the bishopric. The bishopric consists of the bishop, the first counselor and the second counselor. Period. 

I would respectfully disagree.  Organizationally the bishop, his counselors, the executive secretary, and all of the clerks are part of the bishopric.  All members of the bishopric do not have the same calling, duties, or responsibilities, but they are part of the bishopric.  If you check your wards organizations online you will find all of the callings I've named above under bishopric.

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would respectfully disagree.  Organizationally the bishop, his counselors, the executive secretary, and all of the clerks are part of the bishopric.  All members of the bishopric do not have the same calling, duties, or responsibilities, but they are part of the bishopric.  If you check your wards organizations online you will find all of the callings I've named above under bishopric.

In my neck of the woods we sometimes use the phrase "key five" to describe all five, as in "The Key Five of all wards will meet at 4 pm....."

I have no problem with all being "the bishopric"

Dividing the team by title... divides the team with no motive but pride in my book. 

"I am in the bishopric but you are not"

We all work together like a family of equals, each doing his job, not unlike the Godhead. None of us picked our callings, and there is no cause for personal pride.

Today's bishop is tomorrow's primary worker.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would respectfully disagree.  Organizationally the bishop, his counselors, the executive secretary, and all of the clerks are part of the bishopric.  All members of the bishopric do not have the same calling, duties, or responsibilities, but they are part of the bishopric.  If you check your wards organizations online you will find all of the callings I've named above under bishopric.

Handbook 1:

“The ward clerk and ward executive secretary work closely with the bishopric, but they are not members of the bishopric and do not need to be released when the bishopric is reorganized.”

The clerk and secretary attend Bishopric meetings but they are there as an aide to the Members of the Bishopric though in practice their counsel and advice is equal to anyone else’s in the meeting. They are still not a part of it. Members of the Bishopric are functioning High Priests and part of the Stake High Priest Quorum and clerks and secretaries are not. They do not preside if the Bishopric is all absent, the Elder’s Quorum President does. They cannot set people apart to callings, extend callings, etc.

As a ward clerk I like it this way. I get to be informed of everything major going on in the ward, can usually give input on major decisions, and get access to almost every report the bishop gets so I can find any data I need or want to identify trends or problems that need to be addressed. All that and if everything goes wrong it is not my fault. Great power without great responsibility.  

Edited August 14, 2019 by The Nehor

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I had to put this meme in, your comment made me think of it.

Oh my don't get me started... I saw a couple walking ahead of me, one wearing his skinny jeans and the other her yoga pants. They fit the same, and looked exactly the same from behind.

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Oh my don't get me started... I saw a couple walking ahead of me, one wearing his skinny jeans and the other her yoga pants. They fit the same, and looked exactly the same from behind.

Both looked that good huh?  

[Peacefully]

Bow ties are regularly worn in my ward. The ward clerk often wears a a wooden bow tie.

The member of the bishopric who is conducting thanks the men/ym who pass the sacrament and they go and sit in the congregation. I like this much better than “please sit with your families”.

Women speak after the men, sometimes.

I see women with pants and men with jeans in attendance. We have ym with long hair passing the sacrament. I love our ward. It’s less judgy than some wards I’ve been in but it also skews younger which may be part of it.

Switching to a Fitbit solves the watch noise problem:)

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I would respectfully disagree.  Organizationally the bishop, his counselors, the executive secretary, and all of the clerks are part of the bishopric.  All members of the bishopric do not have the same calling, duties, or responsibilities, but they are part of the bishopric.  If you check your wards organizations online you will find all of the callings I've named above under bishopric.

In addition to the authoritative definition The Nehor has already provided from Handbook 1 (thanks, The Nehor), I would offer the following from Newsroom on the Church’s website:

A bishop is the leader of a local congregation (known as a ward) with duties similar to those of a pastor, priest or rabbi. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this position is unpaid.

Each bishop is assisted by two counselors. Together, this bishopric oversees the spiritual and social needs of their ward members. The bishop helps each member of his congregation in their efforts to follow Jesus Christ. In addition to spiritual matters, a bishop helps members who are struggling financially or in other ways to become self-reliant through welfareassistance. A bishop also oversees practical matters such as records, reports, finances and the meetinghouse where members meet.

Bishops typically serve for about five years. Bishops report to stake presidents, and these local leaders have a significant amount of local autonomy to make decisions regarding the members in their wards and stakes.

CLOSE QUOTE

The antecedent of bishopric in the phrase “together, this bishopric” is the bishop and his counselors and does not include the executive secretary or clerks. 

Also, Encyclopedia of Mormonism defines bishopric as the bishop and his two counselors.

The ward organization online that you refer to (if it’s what I’m thinking of) is simply a directory of contact information. It stands to reason that the ward executive secretary, ward clerk and assistant ward clerks would be placed in the “Bishopric” section, because, as I mentioned, they are ancillary staff to the bishopric. But I would dispute that such placement defines them as members of the bishopric. 

[Scott Lloyd]

57 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Bow ties are regularly worn in my ward. The ward clerk often wears a a wooden bow tie.

The member of the bishopric who is conducting thanks the men/ym who pass the sacrament and they go and sit in the congregation. I like this much better than “please sit with your families”.

Women speak after the men, sometimes.

I see women with pants and men with jeans in attendance. We have ym with long hair passing the sacrament. I love our ward. It’s less judgy than some wards I’ve been in but it also skews younger which may be part of it.

Switching to a Fitbit solves the watch noise problem:)

 

I’ve just started wearing a Fitbit. But for decades prior to that, the wrist watches I wore were silent because they were battery operated. As I mentioned, I haven’t even seen a watch with an audible ticking for more than a generation. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In my neck of the woods we sometimes use the phrase "key five" to describe all five, as in "The Key Five of all wards will meet at 4 pm....."

I have no problem with all being "the bishopric"

Dividing the team by title... divides the team with no motive but pride in my book. 

"I am in the bishopric but you are not"

We all work together like a family of equals, each doing his job, not unlike the Godhead. None of us picked our callings, and there is no cause for personal pride.

Today's bishop is tomorrow's primary worker.

This is all well and good, but it doesn’t make the executive secretary or clerks members of the bishopric. 

Edited to add: You don’t mention assistant ward clerks here (i.e. finance, membership). Are they not part of the “family of equals”? And doesn’t leaving them out of the so-called “Key Five” amount to “dividing the team by title”?

Edited August 14, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:56 PM, smac97 said:

Yes.

For leaders?  I've seen more than a few bow ties, but not sported by bishopric members.

Hadn't heard about this one.

And the strap may catch in the person's hair.  That could be painful.

Thanks,

-Smac

I’m in my sixth decade of priesthood service now, and I’ve never encountered or even heard of such an incident. 

It’s hard to conceive of how it might happen. If someone has a bouffy beehive hairdo, perhaps, or a huge Afro. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Haha! Indeed.  Short pants and all.  My friends swank son visited from New York and I am serious when I say his pants were at least an inch shorter than peewees here.  

Ugh! We called them “floods” or “high-water pants” when I was in school, and they were objects of derision. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So are you saying she wears pants, could you be a little more clearer?

I am actually saying that, as a matter of principle, she doesn't own a single skirt of any kind.

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You are smart, now for another gross one, people that take the bread and touch other pieces with germy hands.

I agree. Taking the sacrament should be like a cross between a game of Operation and tournament chess. Per the former, you must take only the intended piece without disturbing any other piece. But you must remember to also comport yourself to the latter where the touch-move rule is in effect, so if you deliberately touch a piece of bread or cup of water then you must take that piece. 

Also, you should be able to do all of this without taking too long.  

 

[Oliblish]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:56 PM, smac97 said:

For leaders?  I've seen more than a few bow ties, but not sported by bishopric members.

My last bishop wore a bow tie pretty much every Sunday.  I don't remember seeing him in a standard tie.  

[Amulek]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There’s a false dichotomy here: Wear a watch or carry a smartphone. Ever hear of a silent, battery-operated watch?  

Sure. I'm just saying that the main utility that a watch - or any other timepiece, for that matter - provides, and the reason you would wear or carry it on your person, is so that you always have access to the time.

However, with the prevalence of smartphones now, most people already have a device that is capable of providing that same function (and then some) on their person at all times, so wearing a watch of any sort is largely redundant - especially if we're talking about regular, uni-tasking watches and not 'smart' watches. 

 

Quote

And as much as I love my iPhone, pulling it out of my pocket and pressing a button (assuming I even have it on my person at the time) will never match the convenience of a quick glance at my wrist when I need to know what time it is.

Pulling your phone out of your pocket is the new normal though, and for a lot of people I bet it's a practice that happens far more often that what is needed to check the time. 

I suspect most people who are used to wearing watches will eventually transition to more modern, smart-wearable options which are all digital anyway. Which is fine by me, so long as I don't have to help with tech support.  

 

[mrmarklin]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Gotta say I’ve never seen this complaint come up before, and you know I think the world of you, Amulek, but it strikes me as a tad quirky. 

Who wears ticking time pieces these days anyway? Nobody in my acquaintance. I’m sure it’s been decades since I’ve even seen, let alone worn one. 

I take issue with your statement!!!!!!!

 

Any one with any self esteem whatsoever wears a Swiss Mechanical Watch.  I prefer my Rolex Submariner, but my first was a Breitling Navitimer.  Both excellent timepieces.  I have others, but don't want to brag on this forum.

Yeah I have garbage and various Quartz watches, but don't really use them anymore.  They were "mistakes" of my youth.

If no one of your acquaintance wears mechanical watches, I'm seriously concerned about the circles in which you move.  You realize that Apostle Uchtdorf wears a Breitling, right?

[mrmarklin]

13 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Sure. I'm just saying that the main utility that a watch - or any other timepiece, for that matter - provides, and the reason you would wear or carry it on your person, is so that you always have access to the time.

However, with the prevalence of smartphones now, most people already have a device that is capable of providing that same function (and then some) on their person at all times, so wearing a watch of any sort is largely redundant - especially if we're talking about regular, uni-tasking watches and not 'smart' watches. 

 

Pulling your phone out of your pocket is the new normal though, and for a lot of people I bet it's a practice that happens far more often that what is needed to check the time. 

I suspect most people who are used to wearing watches will eventually transition to more modern, smart-wearable options which are all digital anyway. Which is fine by me, so long as I don't have to help with tech support.  

 

There's a reason wrist watches replaced excellent pocket watches last century.  Convenience.  This still holds.

For those of you interested in fine timepieces I refer you to https://www.ablogtowatch.com/