Women, Men, and Priesthood

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Ordination of women to the Priesthood would be a blessing not only for them but to the entire church.

If it's the will of the Lord, I would fully support ordination of women to the priesthood.

"If."

I oppose efforts to foist this on the Church through agitation, protests, badmouthing the Brethren, etc.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

Ordination of women to the Priesthood would be a blessing not only for them but to the entire church.

Only if it was God's will.  

[Tacenda]

I kind of like to think that we all have the PH because we have Christ. So if a woman wants the responsibilities of bishop or ? What's the harm? Maybe give the men some breaks!

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

How can you know that?  Since women have never been ordained to priesthood offices there is no way of knowing what effect it would have on the church.  My guess would be that there would be a gradual decrease in participation by men.

I have seen it in the Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Community of Christ churches: amazing preaching, amazing pastoralism, amazing outreach, true humility.  Female priesthood helps to leach out toxic aspects of an all male priesthood, imo.

[Jake Starkey]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I kind of like to think that we all have the PH because we have Christ. So if a woman wants the responsibilities of bishop or ? What's the harm? Maybe give the men some breaks!

Let the men sleep in  and get the children ready for church.

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

I have seen it in the Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodist, and Community of Christ churches: amazing preaching, amazing pastoralism, amazing outreach, true humility.  Female priesthood helps to leach out toxic aspects of an all male priesthood, imo.

One difference between those organization and the church is that they are earthly entities.  They have no power or authority beyond this life.  The restored Church of Jesus Christ has the power and authority to administer ordinances that have efficacy throughout all eternity.  As others have pointed out, at the moment God has limited the ordination to priesthood offices to men.  Changing that could only happen through a revelation from God, to His prophet.  

Amazing preaching, ministering, outreach, and humility is seen throughout the church.  No priesthood office is required to minister to others.

Edited September 9, 2019 by ksfisher

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Ordination of women to the Priesthood would be a blessing not only for them but to the entire church.

I think a faithful argument can be made for it:

"Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter Day Saints, is truth.... [Y]ou may think that it is a broad assertion that it is truth; but ... the first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same; we feel ourselves bound by the laws of God, to observe and do strictly, with all our hearts, all things whatsoever is manifest unto us by the highest degree of testimony that God has committed us, as written in the old and new Testament, or any where else, by any manifestation, whereof we know that it has come from God: and has application to us, being adapted to our situation and circumstances; age, and generation of life; and that we have a perfect, and indefeasible right, to embrace all such commandments, and do them.... And again, we believe that it is our privilege to reject all things, whatsoever is clearly manifested to us that they do not have a bearing upon us." ("To Isaac Galland, March 22, 1839, "Personal writings of Joseph Smith," p. 420-421)

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I kind of like to think that we all have the PH because we have Christ. So if a woman wants the responsibilities of bishop or ? What's the harm? Maybe give the men some breaks!

I like to think I am a billionaire technocrat and have already had my calling and election made sure and that I am going to meet the woman of my dreams in the next five minutes.

From the poetic wisdom of Shel Silverstein:

The little blue engine looked up at the hill.
His light was weak, his whistle was shrill.
He was tired and small, and the hill was tall,
And his face blushed red as he softly said,
“I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.”

So he started up with a chug and a strain,
And he puffed and pulled with might and main.
And slowly he climbed, a foot at a time,
And his engine coughed as he whispered soft,
“I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.”

With a squeak and a creak and a toot and a sigh,
With an extra hope and an extra try,
He would not stop — now he neared the top —
And strong and proud he cried out loud,
“I think I can, I think I can, I think I can!”

He was almost there, when — CRASH! SMASH! BASH!
He slid down and mashed into engine hash
On the rocks below... which goes to show
If the track is tough and the hill is rough,
THINKING you can just ain’t enough!

Edited September 9, 2019 by The Nehor

[Jake Starkey]

The Lord does as the Lord will.  He has no trouble with His People discussing matters such as this.

There is no question that many LDS women would make marvelous holders of the Priesthood (let's have no demeaning jokes).

Those of you have said 'no, not at this time', that is your right, and others' right here to counsel with you on that matter.

Some active in the LDS Church believe the priesthood ordinances have eternal consequences, while many do not.

Some believe same-sex relationships are wrong, while many active LDS do not.

Things will change because things have changed.

Proof? Who ever thought we would see a two-hour block.  The Lord loves His people and he allowed us to put on our happy feet.

He will again, over and over and over.

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

The Lord does as the Lord will.  He has no trouble with His People discussing matters such as this.

I suppose that depends on the time, place and manner of the discussion.

31 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

There is no question that many LDS women would make marvelous holders of the Priesthood (let's have no demeaning jokes).

Agreed.  Such jokes are inappropriate, against either gender.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

Proof? Who ever thought we would see a two-hour block.

The length of church is policy.  I don't think anyone would argue that policy has changed and will continue to change.  Not sure how the change in the length of time we spend in church on Sunday could signify changes in doctrines such as priesthood ordination.

 

1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said:

The Lord loves His people and he allowed us to put on our happy feet.

?

[longview]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

7 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Ordination of women to the Priesthood would be a blessing not only for them but to the entire church.

Only if it was God's will.

If we could peek into the Celestial Kingdom, it would very likely blow our minds to see the amazing structures, organizations, frameworks that are there to carry on the recruitment of intelligences, the advancement of spirit children, allocation of systems for creation of worlds, etc.  No question but women there will perform major works using the power of the priesthood in their positions as Queens and Priestesses.

[Jake Starkey]

ks, change in the church has happened so often to policy, procedure, doctrine.

From a two-elder offense, we now have many GAs, after invoking high councils, stake presidencies, apostles and seventies and their quorums, then temple presidencies, and then assistants to the 12 and they went away, and changes in marriage and polygamy and temple rites and rituals (so many changes) and on and on and on.

I don't think I will live to see same-sex temple marriage, but I do believe we will see women ordination to the priesthood in many of our life times.

I always trust in the Lord.  I always trust in the will of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.  Rarely in the will of man.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

I don't think I will live to see same-sex temple marriage, but I do believe we will see women ordination to the priesthood in many of our life times.

I always trust in the Lord.  I always trust in the will of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.  Rarely in the will of man.

Do you realize the priesthood that men hold is after the order of the SON of God we know as Jesus Christ?  the same type of priesthood that HE has?

It is illogical to think that women should ever receive a priesthood that is after the order of a SON.  ANY son. 

I believe they already to have an order of priesthood but it isn't after the order of a SON.  It is the type or order that DAUGHTERS have.

Men and women are different and it makes no sense to think that women should have the same type of thing that men have in this regard.

[Jake Starkey]

Ahab, thank you for your thoughts.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, longview said:

If we could peek into the Celestial Kingdom, it would very likely blow our minds to see the amazing structures, organizations, frameworks that are there to carry on the recruitment of intelligences, the advancement of spirit children, allocation of systems for creation of worlds, etc.  No question but women there will perform major works using the power of the priesthood in their positions as Queens and Priestesses.

I completely agree. 

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

Only if it was God's will.  

I think that is the whole issue here.  We can advocate for and against, but it seems to me that God has some opinion on the subject and some reason for the existing situation.

We don't know enough about why it is AS it is, to be able to come up with a theology to show how or why it should/could be otherwise.

If it is simply tradition because it has always been that way,  then it is of no importance and can be changed.

On the other hand if it is based on some great cosmic yin and yang thing that we do not understand, and God has very good reasons for it being as it is, it would be foolish to change anything

What we need is some revelation on the subject- on the theology of why only men should have the priesthood- or not.

We need more thinking, more praying and more inspiration to figure this all out and get confirmation from The Boss.

Edited September 10, 2019 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Ahab said:

Do you realize the priesthood that men hold is after the order of the SON of God we know as Jesus Christ?  the same type of priesthood that HE has?

It is illogical to think that women should ever receive a priesthood that is after the order of a SON.  ANY son. 

I believe they already to have an order of priesthood but it isn't after the order of a SON.  It is the type or order that DAUGHTERS have.

Men and women are different and it makes no sense to think that women should have the same type of thing that men have in this regard.

It is illogical that putting your hands on someone’s head and telling them they have power means they do. It is illogical that immersing someone in water and then putting your hands on their head will purify them. It if illogical that a couple clasping their hands over an altar and saying a word can bind them as the beginning of a new kingdom for all eternity.

I would be a little less sure in imagining that human logic can discern the things of God.

 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, longview said:

If we could peek into the Celestial Kingdom, it would very likely blow our minds to see the amazing structures, organizations, frameworks that are there to carry on the recruitment of intelligences, the advancement of spirit children, allocation of systems for creation of worlds, etc.  No question but women there will perform major works using the power of the priesthood in their positions as Queens and Priestesses.

It's there today in the temple.

All these things are paralled right here, right now.

The systems for creation of worlds, in this world, are systems for creation of temples, but the rest of it is right there in Temple work.

I think all missionaries should spend six months as Temple workers. That would change the church and answer a lot of questions about the roles of women and the priesthood.

My wife has recently been able to start doing that and it has changed her whole view. She now understands what it's like to lay one's hands on another's head and pronounce upon them the most sublime blessings that can be uttered.

One on one. From one sister to another, on the authority given to the officiating sister.

And giving those blessings to another sister who is about to enter the mission field is the height of priesthood authority in my book.

It is there that all the blessings of the endowment including becoming like heavenly mother, are confirmed upon that sister.  One on one.

What higher priesthood experience could one have?

In all my callings, years as a bishop and all of that I haven't experienced anything more sublime than that. And because I am a temple worker I get to do that on a regular basis.

Edited September 10, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is illogical that putting your hands on someone’s head and telling them they have power means they do. It is illogical that immersing someone in water and then putting your hands on their head will purify them. It if illogical that a couple clasping their hands over an altar and saying a word can bind them as the beginning of a new kingdom for all eternity.

I would be a little less sure in imagining that human logic can discern the things of God.

 

Well, perhaps I should have said that women can "receive" the priesthood that men have by simply accepting the fact that those men have the authority that we claim they have. There is more than one way to "receive" something, as I understand it.

But actually all of those things you mentioned are not illogical at all.  The reason someone has power when we tell them they do is not because some people have placed their hands upon that person's head.  The hands upon the head thing is just a ritual we go through when we tell them something,, and it isn't the ritual that conveys the thing they are given.  Rituals and symbols are not what convey the actual power of the atonement, the power we get and can convey through the power of Jesus Christ.  We're just trying to do some things to help people realize what they have and when they get it.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Ahab

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It's there today in the temple.

All these things are paralled right here, right now.

The systems for creation of worlds, in this world, are systems for creation of temples, but the rest of it is right there in Temple work.

I think all missionaries should spend six months as Temple workers. That would change the church and answer a lot of questions about the roles of women and the priesthood.

My wife has recently been able to start doing that and it has changed her whole view. She now understands what it's like to lay one's hands on another's head and pronounce upon them the most sublime blessings that can be uttered.

One on one. One sister to another

And giving those blessings to another sister who is about to enter the mission field is the height of priesthood authority in my book.

It is there that all the blessings of the endowment including becoming like heavenly mother, are confirmed upon that sister.  One on one.

What higher priesthood experience could one have?

In all my callings, years as a bishop and all of that I haven't experienced anything more sublime than that. And because I am a temple worker I get to do that on a regular basis.

Yes I agree that it is all happening there in temples at times in the right here and right now but I would still like to see it blow my mind a little more often.  I need more blow my mind sessions, I think.  In fact, I want to go back right now for some more blow my mind sessions.

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Well, perhaps I should have said that women can "receive" the priesthood that men have by simply accepting the fact that those men have the authority that we claim they have. There is more than one way to "receive" something, as I understand it.

Your penchant for redefining words makes language meaningless.

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

But actually all of those things you mentioned are not illogical at all.  The reason someone has power when we tell them they do is not because some people have placed their hands upon that person's head.  The hands upon the head thing is just a ritual we go through when we tell them something,, and it isn't the ritual that conveys the thing they are given.  Rituals and symbols are not what convey the actual power of the atonement, the power we get and can convey through the power of Jesus Christ.  We're just trying to do some things to help people realize what they have and when they get it.

I encourage you to walk into a college “Intro to Logic” course and make that argument. I don’t think it will go well for you.

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I encourage you to walk into a college “Intro to Logic” course and make that argument. I don’t think it will go well for you.

If they did not agree with me I think they would be the one with the problem of not being able to see the logic in what I was saying.

As Forrest Gump would humbly say: I'm not a smart man, but I know what Logic is.

Stupid is as Stupid does.

[Tacenda]

This is so wrong, that Pres. Woodruff did this. 

https://www.the-exponent.com/mary-jane-wilford-woodruff-and-the-267-dead-wives/?fbclid=IwAR1dft6LS0Ehlb3vX4vpyepTvqF0TtCM7Kbdf8nIi0QhoTeUosvQ-0QXF44

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is so wrong, that Pres. Woodruff did this. 

https://www.the-exponent.com/mary-jane-wilford-woodruff-and-the-267-dead-wives/?fbclid=IwAR1dft6LS0Ehlb3vX4vpyepTvqF0TtCM7Kbdf8nIi0QhoTeUosvQ-0QXF44

It's weird compared to what we do now, but these sealings certainly don't negate the women's agency, and if the one example is any indication, they have likely also been sealed to actual husbands since that time.  It was common for people to be sealed to prophets and other leaders rather than family members up until 1894 (these were known as adoption sealings, usually), when WW said he received a revelation stating that sealings should be done between actual family members.

Do we know if WW considered all of these women to be actual wives?  I'm just wondering what information we have on it.