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Mark Beesley

Relationship to the Savior

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So, I recently watched a good docudrama on Charlemagne. My dad had told us years later that we were related to him. After watching the docudrama I went into Family Tree pulled up my Pedigree and started going backwards to see if I could find my relationship to Charlemagne.  I didn’t find Charlemagne, but as I kept following the lines back through the Royal lineages I finally came upon Jesus Christ. My Pedigree chart shows him being married to Mary Magdalene, and having three children one of which was named Sarah, my putative ancestor. 

 

Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?

( I have a rather complete Pedigree because my great great grandfather was Orson Pratt and he did tons of genealogy work. )

 

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IIRC, You can't do temple work anyone more than 500 years or so back.

 

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49 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

Thanks for the link.

Sorry it was just wiki, but it seemed like a good summary from what I do know (not much, looked into it when the Da Vinci Code came out because I was enjoying a blog that was tearing the book apart for many things, including the author likely having never been in Rome) 

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8 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

So, I recently watched a good docudrama on Charlemagne. My dad had told us years later that we were related to him. After watching the docudrama I went into Family Tree pulled up my Pedigree and started going backwards to see if I could find my relationship to Charlemagne.  I didn’t find Charlemagne, but as I kept following the lines back through the Royal lineages I finally came upon Jesus Christ. My Pedigree chart shows him being married to Mary Magdalene, and having three children one of which was named Sarah, my putative ancestor. 

 

Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?

( I have a rather complete Pedigree because my great great grandfather was Orson Pratt and he did tons of genealogy work. )

 

Interesting... I used to work with a man at UC Riverside named Parley P. Pratt (Chair of the Soil Science/Engineering Dept)...  

GG

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1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

Interesting... I used to work with a man at UC Riverside named Parley P. Pratt (Chair of the Soil Science/Engineering Dept)...  

GG

I wonder if he's related?  You never know! :)

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9 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

So, I recently watched a good docudrama on Charlemagne. My dad had told us years later that we were related to him. After watching the docudrama I went into Family Tree pulled up my Pedigree and started going backwards to see if I could find my relationship to Charlemagne.  I didn’t find Charlemagne, but as I kept following the lines back through the Royal lineages I finally came upon Jesus Christ. My Pedigree chart shows him being married to Mary Magdalene, and having three children one of which was named Sarah, my putative ancestor. 

 

Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?

( I have a rather complete Pedigree because my great great grandfather was Orson Pratt and he did tons of genealogy work. )

 

Mark, you should probably be telling me this, but personally, I'd be less concerned about any purported blood relationship to the Savior and more concerned with my actual, real-life, here-and-now relationship with Him. :)  (I would be the last to suggest that family history isn't important in the here-and-now, but most of our gnarled family trees are going to be unknotted in the Millennium, anyway.)

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15 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

..................................Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?.....................

Bart Ehrman explains in detail why there is no reason to trust that sort of fairy tale genealogy online at 

 

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Thanks for the replies. I was really just rather surprised to see the relationship there so matter-of-fact like.  I know of the many legends about Mary going to France and being the blood source for most European royal houses. Is any of it true? Who knows? I am also aware of nobles counterfeiting genealogies in ages past. And I know the Church no longer will accept names for ordinance work for people born before 1500. But part of the stated reason for that is the work has probably already been done, or isn’t needed. Why it wouldn’t be needed is beyond me. 

Beyond all of that, I have no doubt the Savior was married (He had to be under Jewish law to be a rabbi), and He probably fathered children; otherwise, He would have been viewed by the Jews as being cursed. So, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are living blood descendants of the Savior. Nevertheless, I agree that the most important relationship for me today is my spiritual relationship to the Savior rather than any blood relationship. But the latter gives me pause . . .

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22 hours ago, Mark Beesley said:

So, I recently watched a good docudrama on Charlemagne. My dad had told us years later that we were related to him. After watching the docudrama I went into Family Tree pulled up my Pedigree and started going backwards to see if I could find my relationship to Charlemagne.  I didn’t find Charlemagne, but as I kept following the lines back through the Royal lineages I finally came upon Jesus Christ. My Pedigree chart shows him being married to Mary Magdalene, and having three children one of which was named Sarah, my putative ancestor. 

 

Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?

( I have a rather complete Pedigree because my great great grandfather was Orson Pratt and he did tons of genealogy work. )

 

There's every reason in the world to doubt it.

I've been doing a bit of research myself, and digging into my lines as they show up on FamilySearch.org, and if I go back to the 1600s or before, I find that I am related to this noble or that noble.  Then a few months later I go back and find that the noble in question is no longer in my line.  There is a castle I can see from my back yard (actually a castle remnant), and at one time the family that built the castle was in my line, and then later they weren't.  That's a different instance of this, by the way.  Also previously, about five Roman emperors were among my ancestors, but not any longer.

On another completely different line here in England, I was a descendant of an English king, forget which one now (also Familysearch.org).  The crucial person linking me to the line is even buried in Westminster Abbey or wherever they warehouse most of their kings. Upon close examination, this person linking me to the royal line was listed as having had 20+ children, some being born while this person was an infant.  Upon a check of Wikipedia, I discovered that this person was a real person, but had died in childhood, and it gave a death date.  Some of this person's putative children had been born long after the person died.  I put in a report to Familysearch about this bogus thing and after awhile they fixed it.

The only thing I can tell is that there are so many people who try to get themselves attached to famous people, and so either invent ancestors or claim ancestors who are not related to them.  

One little legend in my family was that one of our ancestors was named St. Claire, and this St. Claire came over from France with Lafayette to fight for US independence, was made an officer of some kind, probably a general, and stayed to raise a family, and so on.  One of his daughters was supposedly our ancestor.  Then I come to find out that there was a General Arthur St. Clair, but he was Scottish.  The only French in our ancestry were from Quebec, and none of them was named St Claire.  Another legend was that my great great great grandfather, who was a Maidu Indian, had worked as a scout for Ulysses S Grant when Grant was stationed in California as a lieutenant.  This also turned out to be completely bogus.

You got to be terribly careful when it comes to outlandish ancestry claims.

On the other hand, it is actually well within the realm of possibility that nearly everyone now living who has European ancestry is descended from Charlesmagne.  But very few people would actually be able to submit a provable claim to it, however.  For lack of records, mainly.

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32 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

So, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there are living blood descendants of the Savior

If there are, then most everyone of European heritage (assuming the family ended up there) is likely his descendant.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Calm said:

If there are, then most everyone of European heritage (assuming the family ended up there) is likely his descendant.

It isn't even necessary for the family to have ended up in Europe.

On the other hand, there have been many family lines throughout history that have just died out.

Interesting paper on the subject: The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe

Quote

... as 1,000 years is about 33 generations, and 2^33 - 10^10 is far larger than the size of the European population, so long as populations have mixed sufficiently, by 1,000 years ago everyone (who left descendants) would be an ancestor of every present-day European. Our results are therefore one of the first genomic demonstrations of the counterintuitive but necessary fact that all Europeans are genealogically related over very short time periods, and lends substantial support to models predicting close and ubiquitous common ancestry of all modern humans

And yes, that seems to contradict what I wrote above, about doubting this or that, but am I descended from a particular person?  That is nearly impossible to be sure past a certain point, unless the records are very reliable.

Edited by Stargazer

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Posted (edited)

If the family line of a particular person has few children who have few children that all then die...probably not that unusual given high mortality rate...a line from a particular person may die out pretty quickly. However if they survive past a few generations, even if the descendants that carry the family name die out because no sons having sons, there will still be plenty of descendants.

Descendants may not be able to be identified for everyone as there is only so much room and past a certain number of generations, there will be ancestors who won’t have provided any of an indivivual’s DNA.  In that case, only records might work to trace ancestry.

Edited by Calm

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:31 PM, Mark Beesley said:

So, I recently watched a good docudrama on Charlemagne. My dad had told us years later that we were related to him. After watching the docudrama I went into Family Tree pulled up my Pedigree and started going backwards to see if I could find my relationship to Charlemagne.  I didn’t find Charlemagne, but as I kept following the lines back through the Royal lineages I finally came upon Jesus Christ. My Pedigree chart shows him being married to Mary Magdalene, and having three children one of which was named Sarah, my putative ancestor. 

 

Is there any reason to doubt or trust this info?

( I have a rather complete Pedigree because my great great grandfather was Orson Pratt and he did tons of genealogy work. )

 

That is funny! If you take the scriptures at value there is no evidence Jesus married or had children. Maybe your parents pulled a Liz Warren on you!

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My mission anthem is based on the story that Jesus went to England as a child with Joseph of Arimathea as part of the tin trade. True? Probably not but fables and myths still have power and if Jesus did not go in the flesh he was there when I was there.

I always liked Tolkien’s argument to C.S. Lewis that the story of the death and resurrection was both myth and true.

 

As to ancestry:

strengths_and_weaknesses_2x.png

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19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My mission anthem is based on the story that Jesus went to England as a child with Joseph of Arimathea as part of the tin trade.

Ah, the song "Jerusalem" with lyrics by Blake and music by Parry:

 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Ah, the song "Jerusalem" with lyrics by Blake and music by Parry:

 

Well, it is official. That song still makes me cry, bringing back memories of street meetings and choirs in town centers. That song often brought some, mostly but not exclusively the elderly, to stop and listen and many mouth the words and a few would join in. One Christmas Eve we were singing in the town center. It was pretty cold but our zone of about a dozen missionaries sang that song and many others. The shop nearby brought out a tray of hot chocolate for all of us and we invited the people working there to join us and sing. It was fun.

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On 8/14/2019 at 12:25 AM, The Nehor said:

Well, it is official. That song still makes me cry, bringing back memories of street meetings and choirs in town centers. That song often brought some, mostly but not exclusively the elderly, to stop and listen and many mouth the words and a few would join in. One Christmas Eve we were singing in the town center. It was pretty cold but our zone of about a dozen missionaries sang that song and many others. The shop nearby brought out a tray of hot chocolate for all of us and we invited the people working there to join us and sing. It was fun.

One of my videos is going to feature my wife singing this song as my video shows beautiful landscapes from the local area.  She's tentatively agreed to do it, but getting her to get down to it has proven a bit difficult.

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