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provoman

RICO Act, Proposed Class Action against the Church - it is filed

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Posted (edited)

The appeal was denied. If I understood it correctly, the majority of the case was about misrepresentation to Mull of him working for the Church on their actually abandoned New Jerusalem project and them in exchange supplying him with “the necessities of life” plus pressuring him to give his last $5000 for false charitable scholarship which left him and his daughter scrounging food out of garbage bins. Also reasonable fear of assault by some church members when he was refused admittance to a public event.  And public disclosure after he left the Church of confessed sexual issues.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53d27aaee4b0d86829efbfb4/t/5bc3ea1feef1a19cbd4b0ac4/1539566116628/Court+of+Appeals+Decision+April+1989.pdf

While there was testimony about beliefs, the fraud claims were not attached to them if I understood the case correctly. 

——

So as far as I can see nothing really applicable to the current case as there is no expectation of financial reimbursement for donations of money or labor, no claim iirc of public disclosure of confession, and no claims of physical assault. 

The only possible might be pressuring to give to charitable purposes.

Edited by Calm

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13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Let's see...Smac created a sizable derail with much outrage yesterday when a critic tweeted a "wish" for two members of the First Presidency to die in a car wreck...and here we have a "wish" for the death (albeit in an unlikely manner) of the Plaintiff in this stupid case by none other than the resident smart-a** defender and it goes unnoticed.  Interesting.

I actually thought the same thing when I read that post by Nehor (and I love his humor most of the time :)).  Of course it’s not good to wish for anyone’s death.

Understood hyperbole here though should be extended to the lady on the other thread too, imo.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Let's see...Smac created a sizable derail with much outrage yesterday when a critic tweeted a "wish" for two members of the First Presidency to die in a car wreck...and here we have a "wish" for the death (albeit in an unlikely manner) of the Plaintiff in this stupid case by none other than the resident smart-a** defender and it goes unnoticed.  Interesting.

Nehor posted this an hour ago. Middle of the work day. Do you have evidence that those vigorously condemning the tweet including Smac have even seen this post? (Smac, Scott, Bernard off the top of my head)

Add-on:  next time you want to point out inconsistencies, I think it would work better to wait 24 hours or until the posters you see as worst offenders have posted again or you have seen their names as present on the thread.  I think drawing attention to possible hypocrisy would work better if you give people time to commit it.  :)

I thought Nehor might have intentionally paralleled the tweet myself.  He called the tweet “crass” but I didn’t read him as outraged and he pointed out a death from a car crash might be less horrible than many natural causes, etc.  Since he readily admits his st times inappropriate comments, not seeing him as a hypocrite here.

I noticed it btw and reacted the same way I did to the tweet, basically rolling my eyes and thinking ‘too far, should have gone with struck speechless’. 

Cinepro posted as well. He tends to not do ‘outrage’ that often. 

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)

From Dan Peterson:
News headline: “‘Deceived’: Scorching Lawsuit Blasts Mormon ‘Scheme of Lies’: Class action slams fraud ‘perpetrated for generations'”

"Right.  Wanna place bets on how much time will need to elapse before a federal judge shows this lawsuit the door?So long as the Constitution of the United States of America holds sway here, the day is never going to dawn on which federal courts will presume to adjudicate which religious claims are true and which are false.  And, really, does any clear-thinking American citizen out there want the federal government to decide theological questions?"
Patheos article

Edited by JAHS
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42 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was in 86. 

The daughter believes the case wouldn’t fly now, in part because of false claims made (that the Church was planning on terrorist acts for the sake of the planet was one) and science hasn’t really substantiated claims on coercive persuasion/brainwashing. 

Looking to see if the appeal went through. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-22-me-30719-story.html%3f_amp=true

no info on appeal, Mull died a few months later

Thanks, it did seem a little odd. I could see a theater trial like this taking off during the “cult panic” years.

I read a little more and the plaintiff died shortly after the trial was over. The appellate court denied the appeal and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case.

I found a piece written by his lawyer. Fascinating stuff.

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25 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Let's see...Smac created a sizable derail with much outrage yesterday when a critic tweeted a "wish" for two members of the First Presidency to die in a car wreck...and here we have a "wish" for the death (albeit in an unlikely manner) of the Plaintiff in this stupid case by none other than the resident smart-a** defender and it goes unnoticed.  Interesting.

What are you saying? It was just an idle hope that the courts would have one less frivolous suit to deal with and that her death would incidentally help with that. I certainly do not wish her death and I picked the cause of death at random. Nothing should be read into the mode especially not that I have a God-complex and wish to command destroying angels to do my bidding and pay waste to those who annoy me.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Filed in salt lake, what are the odds that the Judge is likewise A member of the Church?

Here is the list of judges, I believe, who might be overseeing the case:

https://www.utd.uscourts.gov/judges-district-utah-0

Have no clue who is and isn’t a committed church member (since not all committed are active, decided not to use that label).

Wouldn’t be surprise if judge is member, claims of prejudice are made if case gets thrown out...possibly accusations of giving into pressure if judge is not a member (just thinking about what has happened in other cases).  I really like the Phillips case as being in England, such accusations are really weak.  The judge’s reaction was choice as well given Phillips and others had been claiming the fact the case had gone to court was proof the court officers believed his case had merit and could win.

Edited by Calm

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13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I found a piece written by his lawyer. 

Link?

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10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

and pay waste to those who annoy me

Is this like flaming bag of dog poo on porch?

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I thought Nehor might have intentionally paralleled the tweet myself. 

I need to get you this shirt:

61yAtJr56lL._UL1000_.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this like flaming bag of dog poo on porch?

Was a typo but I am going to run with it so yes.

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Doesn't the church have some responsibility in the matter. The matter of being honest to investigators etc. Honest to those that are about to partake of the temple covenants that aren't told what they are committing to? Honest to the young 8 year olds about what they are committing to?

And at that age isn't it way to young to commit to something like that? The young primary children are extremely indoctrinated from an early age, especially in Primary sharing time with the different songs and lessons drilled into their heads and hearts. One day the church will change these things, mark my words. And the material taught them is out of date and untrue in some cases. 

But I guess we have no evidence the Bible is wrong, so then it would include all of Christianity, that could be sued. Therefore I doubt anything will come of it. Unless some could sue for money donated in order to get a TR. 

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5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Doesn't the church have some responsibility in the matter. The matter of being honest to investigators etc. Honest to those that are about to partake of the temple covenants that aren't told what they are committing to? Honest to the young 8 year olds about what they are committing to?

And at that age isn't it way to young to commit to something like that? The young primary children are extremely indoctrinated from an early age, especially in Primary sharing time with the different songs and lessons drilled into their heads and hearts. One day the church will change these things, mark my words. And the material taught them is out of date and untrue in some cases. 

But I guess we have no evidence the Bible is wrong, so then it would include all of Christianity, that could be sued. Therefore I doubt anything will come of it. Unless some could sue for money donated in order to get a TR. 

13789679.jpg

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14 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Filed in salt lake, what are the odds that the Judge is likewise A member of the Church?

About 60/40 the Judge( who makes substantive rulings)  will be active  LDS and 50/50 the magistrate ( who makes mostly procedural rulings)  assigned will be LDS.   I dont' think it will matter whether the Judge and Magistrate are active LDS or not.  Based on established law this  case cannot survive to trial. However, I don't think Kay Burningham and her office manager/ investigator  Park Romney  seriously believe or intend their case will go that far. This is for publicity and promotion of their well documented cause. 

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am hoping in the middle of her presenting her case Moroni appears and strikes her dead, announces she was wrong, and leaves.

I’m waiting for @Scott Lloyd @Kenngo1969 and @smac97 to show up and denounce you and your comment as evil incarnate...

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27 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m waiting for @Scott Lloyd @Kenngo1969 and @smac97 to show up and denounce you and your comment as evil incarnate...

Since it was a parody post I doubt they will. Calm figured it out. I owe her a T-shirt.

 Yeah, I do not see anyone on the other side making excuses for me not really meaning it either.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Nehor posted this an hour ago. Middle of the work day. Do you have evidence that those vigorously condemning the tweet including Smac have even seen this post? (Smac, Scott, Bernard off the top of my head)

Add-on:  next time you want to point out inconsistencies, I think it would work better to wait 24 hours or until the posters you see as worst offenders have posted again or you have seen their names as present on the thread.  I think drawing attention to possible hypocrisy would work better if you give people time to commit it.  :)

I thought Nehor might have intentionally paralleled the tweet myself.  He called the tweet “crass” but I didn’t read him as outraged and he pointed out a death from a car crash might be less horrible than many natural causes, etc.  Since he readily admits his st times inappropriate comments, not seeing him as a hypocrite here.

I noticed it btw and reacted the same way I did to the tweet, basically rolling my eyes and thinking ‘too far, should have gone with struck speechless’. 

Cinepro posted as well. He tends to not do ‘outrage’ that often. 

Meh, it was fast and furious and in the middle of the day yesterday.  I have no idea who saw the post, just thought it was an interesting contrast.

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1 hour ago, topcougar said:

their well documented cause. 

In what sense?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Since it was a parody post I doubt they will. Calm figured it out. I owe her a T-shirt.

 Yeah, I do not see anyone on the other side making excuses for me not really meaning it either.

Well I laughed when I read your post, so I’m definitely going to hell, but that was assured long before this (Mormon hell sounds better to me than Mormon heaven anyway). I was merely bringing it to their attention so that they can be outraged...

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

In what sense?

She has published a book on fraud by the church which she has promoted. Romney has a website promoting himself as a former high priest and apostate. They both gave interviews in the 2012 Election. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, topcougar said:

She has published a book on fraud by the church which she has promoted. Romney has a website promoting himself as a former high priest and apostate. They both gave interviews in the 2012 Election. 

How does that make her cause well documented?  If they were a poorly documented book and website, just because they exist doesn't mean her case is well documented.

Given what I read in her papers and the amount of times I saw "upon information and belief" instead of actual references, I have my doubts about quality of documentation for her cause.

Or do you mean there is a lot of public information on her cause available?  As in "well known"?

Edited by Calm

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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Doesn't the church have some responsibility in the matter. The matter of being honest to investigators etc. Honest to those that are about to partake of the temple covenants that aren't told what they are committing to? Honest to the young 8 year olds about what they are committing to?

And at that age isn't it way to young to commit to something like that? The young primary children are extremely indoctrinated from an early age, especially in Primary sharing time with the different songs and lessons drilled into their heads and hearts. One day the church will change these things, mark my words. And the material taught them is out of date and untrue in some cases. 

But I guess we have no evidence the Bible is wrong, so then it would include all of Christianity, that could be sued. Therefore I doubt anything will come of it. Unless some could sue for money donated in order to get a TR. 

Not just Christianity; it is an assault on all religion, as in every single religion that exists. 

This is not a time for faith to exist. All faithful people must be stomped on because they don't think like they are supposed to. They should not be allowed to believe in what they choose. We live in a time of Totalitarianism of the Left. The Left is extremely tolerant IF you think like they do and act like they do. Anything else must be annihilated. It would be a good time to reflect on scripture about the end of days. Though people have been talking about this since the first apostles, it is strange how some things are happening. 

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3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m waiting for @Scott Lloyd @Kenngo1969 and @smac97 to show up and denounce you and your comment as evil incarnate...

 (For the record, I don't think I've ever denounced anyone on this Board as "evil incarnate," nor would I.  Love me or hate me or be indifferent, I don't care, but that isn't my style.)

Now, if you'll excuse me, you interrupted my nap.  (I thought it was rude, but I forgive you.)

:lazy:

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18 hours ago, provoman said:

Never too late for law school, and with a computer science background that could handy.

What? 68 years old isn't too late?  By the time I finished law school it would be the Millennium and what use would a lawyer be in the Millennium? 😄 

I actually checked on doing that about 25 years ago, and the answer from the Head Shed was: "NO."

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