Caffeine

[Stargazer]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Guessing the newer mad max film?

Ha!  Just searched it and I am right. Recognized the actor. Looked at his credits. 

Just saw a sequence from the film on YouTube.  How exciting!  I think I won't be watching the full film.

[rodheadlee]

On 8/10/2019 at 5:35 PM, Vance said:

I have NEVER heard anyone complain about being dead. 

 

Just sayin.

Being dead isn't so bad it's dying that's a real pain

[clarkgoble]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

No, they are not, but Postum is intended as a coffee substitute.  And it tastes just as bad, in my humble opinion.

I like it, but it's very overpriced. Haven't had it in ages. Used to drink it when at my grandparents when they and my uncles were drinking coffee. I'm much more of a hot chocolate connoisseur these days.

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Now, you can get vanilla flavor that contains no alcohol, although in these cases it will be artificially produced flavoring, with vanillin originating from petrochemicals. At least in these days -- artificial vanillin used to be made from wood processing waste products, including creosote.  Yum!

Changes in paper making and wood pulp mean it's not used for vanillin much these days. Some still is, but as you noted now it's made from petrochemicals. There's also a type of vanillin made from rice bran that's becoming more popular and can be designated in ingredients as "natural flavors." The FDA has somewhat arbitrary rules about what a natural flavor is - often and perhaps typically their inclusion in food has little to do with flavor and most to do with acting as a preservative or in some cases a sweetner. Speaking generally and not just about vanillin. 

Personally I hate vanillin and avoid it like the plague. The best way to get vanilla into a dish (IMO) is to simply add vanilla beans. Although they are expensive - particularly the Tahitian beans which can cost $1000 for a tiny box.

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I like it, but it's very overpriced. Haven't had it in ages. Used to drink it when at my grandparents when they and my uncles were drinking coffee. I'm much more of a hot chocolate connoisseur these days.

I think we have some in the cupboard. Maybe I should try it again to see if it is as bad as I thought it was.  We do have Pero, which to me is tolerable, at least.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Changes in paper making and wood pulp mean it's not used for vanillin much these days. Some still is, but as you noted now it's made from petrochemicals. There's also a type of vanillin made from rice bran that's becoming more popular and can be designated in ingredients as "natural flavors." The FDA has somewhat arbitrary rules about what a natural flavor is - often and perhaps typically their inclusion in food has little to do with flavor and most to do with acting as a preservative or in some cases a sweetner. Speaking generally and not just about vanillin. 

You find the same arbitrary rules here in Europe.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Personally I hate vanillin and avoid it like the plague. The best way to get vanilla into a dish (IMO) is to simply add vanilla beans. Although they are expensive - particularly the Tahitian beans which can cost $1000 for a tiny box.

 

Fortunately, I don't find myself in need of vanilla in the things I cook. They tend to be savory rather than sweet.

[SettingDogStar]

Teecino is an excellent coffee substitute! My wife thinks it tastes identical, or as close as you can get, to coffee. You can even do all the same “fun drinks” with it as coffee! I love the stuff!

[mfbukowski]

On 8/17/2019 at 4:11 PM, SettingDogStar said:

Teecino is an excellent coffee substitute! My wife thinks it tastes identical, or as close as you can get, to coffee. You can even do all the same “fun drinks” with it as coffee! I love the stuff!

Chicory?

That used to be the cheap add-in to coffee to be avoided.  Of course it has been 40 years since I gave up a serious coffee habit and have not had a single cup since then.  I like postum though.

So have they done something in the last 40 years to beef up chicory? 

https://www.thespruceeats.com/what-is-chicory-766431

[The Nehor]

The best substitute is my cocoa recipe, colloquially known as a diabetes shake.

Take whole milk and put the desired quantity into a cocomotion cocoa machine. Add white chocolate cocoa powder liberally. Put in a scoop and a half of Blue Bell French Vanilla ice cream. Add caramel sause or topping......liberally. Before the caramel can settle turn on the cocomotion and let it heat and swirl. Once it is done and had a chance to cool put in glass.

Warning: Drink slowly! It is incredibly sweet. Do not drink immediately before trying to sleep. Do not eat anything else that day. It has your calorie count covered.

Proviso: Not responsible for results. Consult your witch doctor before use.

[SettingDogStar]

On 8/18/2019 at 8:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

Chicory?

That used to be the cheap add-in to coffee to be avoided.  Of course it has been 40 years since I gave up a serious coffee habit and have not had a single cup since then.  I like postum though.

So have they done something in the last 40 years to beef up chicory? 

https://www.thespruceeats.com/what-is-chicory-766431

Never had Chicory before, ill have to try it though! Teecino is essentially, for all intents and purposes, an herbal tea that tastes almost identical to coffee. You still brew it in a coffee machine, but I think you could steep it if you wanted. Course I can’t drink it black so I wash it out with creamer, so maybe it doesn’t taste identical. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

Never had Chicory before, ill have to try it though! Teecino is essentially, for all intents and purposes, an herbal tea that tastes almost identical to coffee. You still brew it in a coffee machine, but I think you could steep it if you wanted. Course I can’t drink it black so I wash it out with creamer, so maybe it doesn’t taste identical. 

If I got it right, Teecino IS chicory.

[marineland]

Is it permissible to drink Coke even though it contains caffeine?

[MustardSeed]

46 minutes ago, marineland said:

Is it permissible to drink Coke even though it contains caffeine?

No one who matters is saying you can’t. 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, marineland said:

Is it permissible to drink Coke even though it contains caffeine?

Basically it is up to the individual to decide:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng

Quote

Is there anything wrong with drinking sodas with caffeine in them? Is caffeine bad? The Word of Wisdom doesn’t mention it.

Doctrine and Covenants 89:9 says we shouldn’t drink “hot drinks.” The only official interpretation of this term is the statement made by early Church leaders that it means tea and coffee. Caffeine is not specifically mentioned as the reason not to drink these drinks.

However, we should keep in mind this counsel given by President Boyd K. Packer: “The Word of Wisdom was ‘given for a principle with promise’ (D&C 89:3). … A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. Members write in asking if this thing or that is against the Word of Wisdom. … We teach the principle together with the promised blessings. There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation. … Obedience to counsel will keep you on the safe side of life” (“The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises,” Ensign, May 1996, 17–18).

They sell caffeinated drinks on BYU campus in Provo these days, not sure about other campuses.  

Perhaps it is from years of hearing many members say caffeine is forbidden because that is how they understood it or were taught by parents, etc. and because there were leaders who obviously would prefer members not to drink it or just expected members not to even if not forbidden by the scriptures or in questions for entering the temple, but when I read things like the above, I hear a subtext saying "even so, we really hope you choose not to use it as we think caffeine happens to fall into the addictive category".  I think of it as similar to a parent saying to their kid "It is your choice to do your homework now or later, but you are going to be tired later and will make more mistakes".  It is the kid's choice, but it is also pretty obvious what the parent wants them to choose.  

Edited August 24, 2019 by Calm

[marineland]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Basically it is up to the individual to decide:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng

Thank you for that link.

So what hot drinks are forbidden and why exactly?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Thank you for that link.

So what hot drinks are forbidden and why exactly?

Coffee and tea of the specific plant, not herbal teas.  And this has been defined as at any temperature, not just hot.  Hyrum Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith who gave the revelation, clarified hot drinks meant coffee and tea.  

There has been ongoing debate on why, but it is usually taught that God provided the relativism and then later when Saints were ready and the need for the Church was there, the restrictions was moved from guidance to commandment and later prophets have added specific counsel,as seen fit, possibly by revelation, possibly not...it get confusing there as commandments often do, in part Imbelieve to encourage us to seek out the Spirit for ourselves to hear counsel straight from God through our prayers, etc.

This page pulls together tons of resources.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng&_r=1

For basic history as taught to Saints, this manual is useful:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-89-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, marineland said:

Thank you for that link.

So what hot drinks are forbidden and why exactly?

I would add that the Word of Wisdom is really not a revelation of forbidden substances, but more of a promise of a blessing for adopting certain habits. However, currently coffee and tea are forbidden if one wants a temple recommend.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/23/2019 at 6:31 PM, Calm said:

Basically it is up to the individual to decide:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng

They sell caffeinated drinks on BYU campus in Provo these days, not sure about other campuses.  

Perhaps it is from years of hearing many members say caffeine is forbidden because that is how they understood it or were taught by parents, etc. and because there were leaders who obviously would prefer members not to drink it or just expected members not to even if not forbidden by the scriptures or in questions for entering the temple, but when I read things like the above, I hear a subtext saying "even so, we really hope you choose not to use it as we think caffeine happens to fall into the addictive category".  I think of it as similar to a parent saying to their kid "It is your choice to do your homework now or later, but you are going to be tired later and will make more mistakes".  It is the kid's choice, but it is also pretty obvious what the parent wants them to choose.  

For what it's worth, the vending machines in the workers' break room at the temple where I serve do not offer beverages that contain caffeine. They don't even have no-caffeine Coke.

And that's fine with me. 😉

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/19/2019 at 9:57 AM, The Nehor said:

The best substitute is my cocoa recipe, colloquially known as a diabetes shake.

Take whole milk and put the desired quantity into a cocomotion cocoa machine. Add white chocolate cocoa powder liberally. Put in a scoop and a half of Blue Bell French Vanilla ice cream. Add caramel sause or topping......liberally. Before the caramel can settle turn on the cocomotion and let it heat and swirl. Once it is done and had a chance to cool put in glass.

Warning: Drink slowly! It is incredibly sweet. Do not drink immediately before trying to sleep. Do not eat anything else that day. It has your calorie count covered.

Proviso: Not responsible for results. Consult your witch doctor before use.

I'm glad to encounter someone else who uses a Cocomotion machine. I love ours. 

Some years ago, we bought two or three extras to put in storage against the time when they stopped manufacturing them. I'm glad now that we did so.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I would add that the Word of Wisdom is really not a revelation of forbidden substances, but more of a promise of a blessing for adopting certain habits. However, currently coffee and tea are forbidden if one wants a temple recommend.

There is a component to the Word of Wisdom as taught today that is not contained within the wording of the revelation (D&C 89) itself. That component is a test of commitment and obedience to the word of God demonstrated through behavior, not unlike the dietary laws of ancient Israel. I believe this component is just as much revelation as the wording in Section 89.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/23/2019 at 4:32 PM, marineland said:

Is it permissible to drink Coke even though it contains caffeine?

Caffeine is not prohibited by the word of wisdom.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Caffeine is not prohibited by the word of wisdom.

Pretty interesting actually. I think the leaders drink it, I remember reading that Pres. Monson did, but don't quote me on that. But to me, soda pop is worse than green tea for sure. So it's really all relative. 

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Pretty interesting actually. I think the leaders drink it, I remember reading that Pres. Monson did, but don't quote me on that. But to me, soda pop is worse than green tea for sure. So it's really all relative. 

It's not relative. Green tea consumption is prohibited in the Church; soda consumption is not.

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Caffeine is not prohibited by the word of wisdom.

But I think it's a safe bet that coffee and tea are prohibited, at least in part, because they contain caffeine.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But I think it's a safe bet that coffee and tea are prohibited, at least in part, because they contain caffeine.

Why would you say that?  Why would caffeine be an issue in only coffee and tea and not a slew of other products?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Why would you say that?  Why would caffeine be an issue in only coffee and tea and not a slew of other products?

Because they didn't have Mountain Dew in Joseph's day?

What "products" did you have in mind?

In fact caffeine raises heart rate and blood pressure and stresses your body, it just does not happen to be mentioned in the WOW.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But I think it's a safe bet that coffee and tea are prohibited, at least in part, because they contain caffeine.

No argument there.