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Inclusiveness and Gay Children of God

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

It is interesting to me that it seems in the day and age we currently are in, members and church leaders are claiming revelation from God when even the people who express an opinion are not claiming it came from God.  The opinion of Elder Hafen is a good example of that.  The claim by Elder Nelson of revelation received by by President Monson  concerning the Oct policy is another.  Neither of the men that supposed revelation ever made such a claim.  

I do believe that God does guide each and every one of us if we seek Him.  

I expected california boy to dodge the question. He lived up (or rather, down) to the expectation. 

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I haven't finished reading the thread up to this point.  I started writing a reply.  I'm almost hesitant to post it here because, in the course of composing it, it took me in some directions I wasn't necessarily expecting and directions I'm unsure how well relate to the thread.  I thought about foregoing posting it here entirely and simply slapping it on my blog, but ... :huh::unknw:

If diversion it be, forgive the diversion:

We have such an incomplete, fragmentary, through-a-glass-darkly understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and yet it is the central doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God and Christ are omnipotent. That means that there is nothing they cannot do—except for one thing. Yes, God loves all of His children. Yes, He wants them to be saved and exalted. But the one thing He cannot and will not do is save or exalt anyone against his will. That’s it. So the real question isn’t whether anyone wants to be gay, or straight, or [fill-in-the-blank-with-adjective-here, ad infinitum] in the next life. The only real question is whether someone wants to be exalted—is he willing to be exalted?

To find out if I’m willing to be exalted, God has asked me to obey Him: Much of the time, I fail at that—miserably. Yes, my puny efforts to obey Him might add, in some infinitesimally small, barely perceptible way, to His glory: Glorifying Him and the life He has given me is another of my tasks, a task at which, like obedience, I fail, miserably and often. And yet there are moments—all-too-rare, all-too-fleeting, and seemingly-ephemeral and ethereal, perhaps, here amidst mortality’s prevailing “mists of darkness,” but transcendent and sublime moments, nonetheless—in which God tells me as He told Moses, “Thou art my son.” To quote the beautiful, oft-repeated refrain from the book of Isaiah, though I stumble, though I fail, though I fall (and that’s the real problem: we’re all fallen!), “His arm is stretched out still.”

Yet, here we are, so often groping about in mortality’s mists of darkness, hoping, somehow, in our mortal, fallen condition, to see the truth of the vision described by the Apostle Paul. To the Romans, in Romans 8:38-39, he described it this way: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And to the Corinthians, in 1 Corinthians 2:9, he described it this way: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

And how do we demonstrate our love for God? “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15. And, though it occurs in a different context, I’m reminded of Peter’s exchange with the Savior: “Ken, lovest thou me?” “Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love Thee.” “Keep my commandments.” (See John 21:15-17.)

“Lord, I believe. Help Thou mine unbelief.” Mark 9:24.

For what it's worth.  (Sorry, Kevin Christensen! :D)

 

 

 

 

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It’s my opinion that one thing we can do to make people feel more included is to get out of our comfort zones.  Travel.  Join new groups. Try socializing with someone outside of the ward-I say this tongue in cheek but strangely enough it’s a thing.  

Stories change people. People change people.  Assuming the stance on homosexuality never changes, many of us could be a lot nicer. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Regarding our sexual proclivities and our preferences after we die- 

isnt it logical that at least “some” desires will be altered, at the very least, if we want them to?

i myself hope that my attraction for Black men is squashed.  My husband is not black. My husband would appreciate that. Of course most would hope that actual harmful attractions would be eliminated. 

However, if anyone told me that I the next life, I will no longer be hetero but will be homosexual, suggesting that my husband and I will be done, I would find such a suggestion to be beyond the pale. I have compassion for the good wonderful and honorable folks I know who are in same sex marriages (I respect people who commit) who have been told such things. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I expected california boy to dodge the question. He lived up (or rather, down) to the expectation. 

I didn't dodge the question.  I do believe that God gives each of us guidance through the Spirit.

If you are talking specifically about revelation from church leaders, then I have severe doubts.  I once believe that when the prophet of God declared a revelation then it was a real revelation.  I made life changing decisions on those revelations and claims that promise came from God.  That ended up to not be true.  So I had my first solid experience that when someone says they speak for God, I am totally unwilling to take that as truth any more simply with claims of something coming from God because it is a false promise.  Yes there are things the prophets have declared came from God that I believe.  But that belief no longer comes from believing in the truthfulness of what a prophet says.  It comes from my own pondering and praying about what was said.  

Once one looses complete trust in the words of those claiming to speak for God, then it does put in question all that they claim.  For me, credibility is at the top of the list when someone starts speaking for God.  

What do I believe came from Revelation?  This.  We have a Heavenly Father.  Christ is His son who died to atone for our sins and make possible for us to return to God.  The Holy Ghost will guide us in a path back to God.  That we are to bear each other's burdens.  That when we serve the least of man, we serve Christ.  That many are in spiritual prison and it is our responsibility to minister to them.  That there is more than a hunger for food, but a hunger for faith in God.   That many shall say they speak for God and God will say to them, I do not know you. Our relationship with God comes from within ourselves and not through someone else telling us what that relationship should or shouldn't be.  That those who worry more about the sins of others than their own are focused on the wrong thing.  That above all, charity never faileth.  That love will endure.

Edited by california boy
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3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I haven't finished reading the thread up to this point.  I started writing a reply.  I'm almost hesitant to post it here because, in the course of composing it, it took me in some directions I wasn't necessarily expecting and directions I'm unsure how well relate to the thread.  I thought about foregoing posting it here entirely and simply slapping it on my blog, but ... :huh::unknw:

If diversion it be, forgive the diversion:

We have such an incomplete, fragmentary, through-a-glass-darkly understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and yet it is the central doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God and Christ are omnipotent. That means that there is nothing they cannot do—except for one thing. Yes, God loves all of His children. Yes, He wants them to be saved and exalted. But the one thing He cannot and will not do is save or exalt anyone against his will. That’s it. So the real question isn’t whether anyone wants to be gay, or straight, or [fill-in-the-blank-with-adjective-here, ad infinitum] in the next life. The only real question is whether someone wants to be exalted—is he willing to be exalted?

To find out if I’m willing to be exalted, God has asked me to obey Him: Much of the time, I fail at that—miserably. Yes, my puny efforts to obey Him might add, in some infinitesimally small, barely perceptible way, to His glory: Glorifying Him and the life He has given me is another of my tasks, a task at which, like obedience, I fail, miserably and often. And yet there are moments—all-too-rare, all-too-fleeting, and seemingly-ephemeral and ethereal, perhaps, here amidst mortality’s prevailing “mists of darkness,” but transcendent and sublime moments, nonetheless—in which God tells me as He told Moses, “Thou art my son.” To quote the beautiful, oft-repeated refrain from the book of Isaiah, though I stumble, though I fail, though I fall (and that’s the real problem: we’re all fallen!), “His arm is stretched out still.”

Yet, here we are, so often groping about in mortality’s mists of darkness, hoping, somehow, in our mortal, fallen condition, to see the truth of the vision described by the Apostle Paul. To the Romans, in Romans 8:38-39, he described it this way: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And to the Corinthians, in 1 Corinthians 2:9, he described it this way: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

And how do we demonstrate our love for God? “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15. And, though it occurs in a different context, I’m reminded of Peter’s exchange with the Savior: “Ken, lovest thou me?” “Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love Thee.” “Keep my commandments.” (See John 21:15-17.)

“Lord, I believe. Help Thou mine unbelief.” Mark 9:24.

For what it's worth.  (Sorry, Kevin Christensen! :D)

Tears.

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12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Regarding our sexual proclivities and our preferences after we die- 

isnt it logical that at least “some” desires will be altered, at the very least, if we want them to?

i myself hope that my attraction for Black men is squashed.  My husband is not black. My husband would appreciate that. Of course most would hope that actual harmful attractions would be eliminated. 

However, if anyone told me that I the next life, I will no longer be hetero but will be homosexual, suggesting that my husband and I will be done, I would find such a suggestion to be beyond the pale. I have compassion for the good wonderful and honorable folks I know who are in same sex marriages (I respect people who commit) who have been told such things. 

IMO, the truth is we just don't know.  Beyond that, everything is speculation. There are things we can hope for.  But it is just that, hope.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, california boy said:

IMO, the truth is we just don't know.  Beyond that, everything is speculation. There are things we can hope for.  But it is just that, hope.

You are correct (and you're also correct that there has been no declared revelation or doctrine regarding the teaching that a gay person will be attracted to the opposite sex after this life).  No one should be claiming that someone who is gay can be "cured" in this life or in the next life, IMO.   That's saying they believe someone who is gay suffers from a defect or a disease or "malady" (which some do believe and have expressed, so of course they believe it will be fixed or cured in the next life).

I believe it's insulting to tell someone who is gay and with the person they deeply love that this attraction will vanish after they die.  How would some here feel if they were told something like:  Oh, don't worry....you won't want to be with your wife/husband in the next life and you will be attracted to someone who is better for you.  That's telling them their relationship here which they value and cherish really means nothing other than for right now (and even now it's wrong), and that God will fix you so you can have a real relationship after you die.  

So yes, the truth is we just don't know how it will be.  Maybe none of us will be sexually attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex after we pass away.  That would make more sense to me than that God will pick and choose who he cures or fixes and they then are suddenly attracted to someone different or a different sex.

I agree that all we have heard from a few of our leaders is their opinion.  I respect that this is their belief, but they really do not know it's the truth either, IMO.

Edited by ALarson
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, california boy said:

What makes you think I am angry?  I am just asking the question.  I don't really anticipate the church will change its policy.  But I would still be interested in what your answer to my question is.  

I seeking to explain that “all” sex outside of marriage is a sin,  as an attempt let you know that in this (or these) circumstance, are all equal. I also suggested that Church policy may someday change, “if” someone is in legally recognized marriage might be changed. I was also, which was maybe a reach on my part, that because of you passion about this issue (which very understandable), by calling it anger. I would submit that marriage, which implies monogamy, is better than engaging in sexual relations with many individuals. I cannot tell you what you should do, I only know I am glad my daughter is in a (the) monogamous relationship of marriage, no matter my feelings on the issue of Gay Marriage. God, through scripture makes it clear it is a sin, as there are “according to Jewish belief” 613 known sins. No matter the sin, and no matter the sinner, most wish the sins they are committing, or are enslaved too, for lack of a better term. They all wish their sins were not sins, or that God, would and could turn a blind eye. Especially on the day of judgement, a day all must face. So, I guess you will have to decide if I have answered your questions to your satisfaction. I am not your judge, nor your father, I am just the father of a daughter affected by this issue, policy, definition, theology, or whatever term you wish to apply. 

As of late, I have found that a voice or opinion I once  shared in threads concerning, Gay Marriage, and related issues, is no longer a welcome one. So, I will bow out of this thread, and seek not to wade into these waters again. After all, a gentleman should always know when it is time to leave. But please know,  I did not mean to offend. 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I didn't dodge the question.  I do believe that God gives each of us guidance through the Spirit.

If you are talking specifically about revelation from church leaders, then I have severe doubts.  I once believe that when the prophet of God declared a revelation then it was a real revelation.  I made life changing decisions on those revelations and claims that promise came from God.  That ended up to not be true.  So I had my first solid experience that when someone says they speak for God, I am totally unwilling to take that as truth any more simply with claims of something coming from God because it is a false promise.  Yes there are things the prophets have declared came from God that I believe.  But that belief no longer comes from believing in the truthfulness of what a prophet says.  It comes from my own pondering and praying about what was said.  

Once one looses complete trust in the words of those claiming to speak for God, then it does put in question all that they claim.  For me, credibility is at the top of the list when someone starts speaking for God.  

What do I believe came from Revelation?  This.  We have a Heavenly Father.  Christ is His son who died to atone for our sins and make possible for us to return to God.  The Holy Ghost will guide us in a path back to God.  That we are to bear each other's burdens.  That when we serve the least of man, we serve Christ.  That many are in spiritual prison and it is our responsibility to minister to them.  That there is more than a hunger for food, but a hunger for faith in God.   That many shall say they speak for God and God will say to them, I do not know you. Our relationship with God comes from within ourselves and not through someone else telling us what that relationship should or shouldn't be.  That those who worry more about the sins of others than their own are focused on the wrong thing.  That above all, charity never faileth.  That love will endure.

My rep point for the above was for the willingness of the poster to share his sincere belief in what has been shared via revelation.  I find much to agree with on his list, and while I believe there is more, acting upon many of the truths and principles in his list is a righteous endeavor.

i don’t share the posters distrust of the Brethren, my experience has been closer to the Lehi/Nephi model of prophetic/personal revelation.

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8 hours ago, california boy said:

It is interesting to me that it seems in the day and age we currently are in, members and church leaders are claiming revelation from God when even the people who express an opinion are not claiming it came from God.  The opinion of Elder Hafen is a good example of that.  The claim by Elder Nelson of revelation received by by President Monson  concerning the Oct policy is another.  Neither of the men that supposed revelation ever made such a claim.  

I do believe that God does guide each and every one of us if we seek Him.  

In other words, no. You don't believe in revelation to prophets. I respect that. What I don't understand is why you make such a big deal about the lack of revelation regarding LGBT issues.  You wouldn't give such a revelation any more credibility than the current authoritative statements. That makes the repeated statements about a lack of revelation seem like a disingenuous ploy.

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11 minutes ago, kllindley said:

In other words, no. You don't believe in revelation to prophets. I respect that. What I don't understand is why you make such a big deal about the lack of revelation regarding LGBT issues.  You wouldn't give such a revelation any more credibility than the current authoritative statements. That makes the repeated statements about a lack of revelation seem like a disingenuous ploy.

Maybe it’s more that he sees others claiming or believing there has been revelations on this topic (or that it’s taught so it’s doctrine or revealed)?

Does anyone believe there has been a revelation about our sexuality after we die?  Any actual doctrine about it?  I am just wondering.  Or are we all just expressing our opinions and hopes?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I expected california boy to dodge the question. He lived up (or rather, down) to the expectation. 

😒

I think he's very clearly answered the question (and then even added more clarity).  I admire how respectful and civil he remains while still disagreeing with many on a topic that is extremely personal for him and one that has really affected his life.  

(I feel the same regarding others on here....I highly value kllindley's opinions as well.)

Edited by ALarson
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6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I haven't finished reading the thread up to this point.  I started writing a reply.  I'm almost hesitant to post it here because, in the course of composing it, it took me in some directions I wasn't necessarily expecting and directions I'm unsure how well relate to the thread.  I thought about foregoing posting it here entirely and simply slapping it on my blog, but ... :huh::unknw:

If diversion it be, forgive the diversion:

We have such an incomplete, fragmentary, through-a-glass-darkly understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and yet it is the central doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God and Christ are omnipotent. That means that there is nothing they cannot do—except for one thing. Yes, God loves all of His children. Yes, He wants them to be saved and exalted. But the one thing He cannot and will not do is save or exalt anyone against his will. That’s it. So the real question isn’t whether anyone wants to be gay, or straight, or [fill-in-the-blank-with-adjective-here, ad infinitum] in the next life. The only real question is whether someone wants to be exalted—is he willing to be exalted?

To find out if I’m willing to be exalted, God has asked me to obey Him: Much of the time, I fail at that—miserably. Yes, my puny efforts to obey Him might add, in some infinitesimally small, barely perceptible way, to His glory: Glorifying Him and the life He has given me is another of my tasks, a task at which, like obedience, I fail, miserably and often. And yet there are moments—all-too-rare, all-too-fleeting, and seemingly-ephemeral and ethereal, perhaps, here amidst mortality’s prevailing “mists of darkness,” but transcendent and sublime moments, nonetheless—in which God tells me as He told Moses, “Thou art my son.” To quote the beautiful, oft-repeated refrain from the book of Isaiah, though I stumble, though I fail, though I fall (and that’s the real problem: we’re all fallen!), “His arm is stretched out still.”

Yet, here we are, so often groping about in mortality’s mists of darkness, hoping, somehow, in our mortal, fallen condition, to see the truth of the vision described by the Apostle Paul. To the Romans, in Romans 8:38-39, he described it this way: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And to the Corinthians, in 1 Corinthians 2:9, he described it this way: “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

And how do we demonstrate our love for God? “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15. And, though it occurs in a different context, I’m reminded of Peter’s exchange with the Savior: “Ken, lovest thou me?” “Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love Thee.” “Keep my commandments.” (See John 21:15-17.)

“Lord, I believe. Help Thou mine unbelief.” Mark 9:24.

For what it's worth.  (Sorry, Kevin Christensen! :D)

 

 

 

 

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Wow, excuse me if I read this wrong, but it appears that God loves everyone! And the church shouldn't ever separate us from Him.

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2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Maybe none of us will be sexually attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex after we pass away.  That would make more sense to me than that God will pick and choose who he cures or fixes and they then are suddenly attracted to someone different or a different sex.

Unless we continue to make new marriages in the eternities, what purpose would sexual attraction to someone besides our spouse (or spouses if we end up sealed to all we have married) serve in the eternities?  Definitely makes more sense it goes away unless we become capable of being attracted without lust in some sort of godly manner, perhaps appreciating like we might appreciate art. But attraction to the point of desiring to have a physical relationship with others besides a spouse?  Not sure how that could be godly or purposeful. 

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10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And the church shouldn't ever separate us from Him.

Good thing it doesn’t.

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1 hour ago, kllindley said:

In other words, no. You don't believe in revelation to prophets. I respect that. What I don't understand is why you make such a big deal about the lack of revelation regarding LGBT issues.  You wouldn't give such a revelation any more credibility than the current authoritative statements. That makes the repeated statements about a lack of revelation seem like a disingenuous ploy.

It seems to me that he believes revelations that have been confirmed for him by the Spirit, something consistent with church teachings imo.

What appears different imo to say my personal position is how he classes possible unconfirmed claimed revelations where I most likely am willing to act as if confirmed for now in trust that it probably is an actual revelation while he is not based on our personal experience with the success of our interpretations with unconfirmed, claimed revelations. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ALarson said:

😒

I think he's very clearly answered the question (and then even added more clarity).  I admire how respectful and civil he remains while still disagreeing with many on a topic that is extremely personal for him and one that has really affected his life.  

(I feel the same regarding others on here....I highly value kllindley's opinions as well.)

He answered it on the clarification. He skirted it on the first go-around. 

And kllindley is right. It is disingenuous to be constantly fussing about whether this or that statement is revelation or is inspired when he doesn’t believe that the Church’s leaders convey revelation to us anyway. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unless we continue to make new marriages in the eternities, what purpose would sexual attraction to someone besides our spouse (or spouses if we end up sealed to all we have married) serve in the eternities?  Definitely makes more sense it goes away unless we become capable of being attracted without lust in some sort of godly manner, perhaps appreciating like we might appreciate art. But attraction to the point of desiring to have a physical relationship with others besides a spouse?  Not sure how that could be godly or purposeful. 

I agree.

We don't really know how procreation even works after this life.  Our bodies will be changed.  I think it's pretty ridiculous to believe women will become pregnant (like here) in order to procreate.  I know most women are pretty opposed to that thought :) 

I firmly believe we will be with those we love.  That includes men being with men and women being with other women.  If that's in a nonsexual way, I cannot imagine anyone being against that.  

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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Wow, excuse me if I read this wrong, but it appears that God loves everyone! And the church shouldn't ever separate us from Him.

Yes, you read it wrong. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He answered it on the clarification. He skirted it on the first go-around. 

I didn't see it that way and felt he was attempting to be honest and give his opinion or beliefs.  His additional comments even clarified them further, IMO.

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And kllindley is right. It is disingenuous to be constantly fussing about whether this or that statement is revelation is inspired when he doesn’t believe that the Church’s leaders convey revelation to us anyway. 

I honestly do not see it that way.  It's a topic he's interested in and one that has greatly affected his life.  I doubt he'd care about the "revelation" aspect of it, if there weren't those who do seem to believe there has been revelation or doctrine taught regarding it.  So, it's not odd that he'd want to discuss it, IMO....and I definitely see nothing "disingenuous" with his comments.

Do you believe there has been revelation or doctrine taught regarding our sexuality after this life (sexual attraction)?  It's ok if you choose not to answer, but I'd honestly like to know your beliefs on it.

Edited by ALarson
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4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I didn't see it that way and felt he was attempting to be honest and give his opinion or beliefs.  His additional comments even clarified them further, IMO.

I honestly do not see it that way.  It's a topic he's interested in and one that has greatly affected his life.  I doubt he'd care about the "revelation" aspect of it, if there weren't those who do seem to believe there has been revelation or doctrine taught regarding it.  So, it's not odd that he'd want to discuss it, IMO....and I definitely see nothing "disingenuous" with his comments.

Do you believe there has been revelation or doctrine taught regarding our sexuality after this life (sexual attraction)?  It's ok if you choose not to answer, but I'd honestly like to know your beliefs on it.

I believe that inspiration given to an authorized servant of God which he then conveys to others through his teachings constitutes revelation, whether or not it is explicitly labeled so by the authorized servant of God. You will say that I’m in a vulnerable position with that belief. I believe you are the one who is on shaky ground if you resist inspired instruction and warning just because it doesn’t come to you in the form you require or expect. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I believe that inspiration given to an authorized servant of God which he then conveys to others through his teachings constitutes revelation, whether or not it is explicitly labeled so by the authorized servant of God.

I believe that too (that it's personal revelation unless it's a revelation given to the Prophet for the church and all members.....but we have not seen that as of yet, IMO, on this topic).  I would also add that since we've only heard from a few leaders regarding what they believe (their opinion or beliefs), that it's important for each of us to then pray about it and determine what we believe....or receive our own personal revelation regarding it.

I believe that it's also fine to disagree at times with our leaders opinion's or beliefs or teachings (as long as we don't publicly teach against them, etc.).  They are not infallible.

We know that teachings have indeed changed regarding whether or not being gay can be cured....how can we really know if they will be cured then after this life?  Or that there is even a need for this cure?  I personally find that teaching insulting to those who love or who believe they want to be with a member of the same sex after this life....but I know others disagree.

 

Edited by ALarson
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On 8/2/2019 at 2:46 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Probably nothing that’s going to satisfy <you.> But in the sense that any inspired teaching from a general priesthood leader acting in the authority of his calling is tantamount to declaring the mind of the Lord, yes I can. 

I wonder how well that position holds up when it comes to past such declarations of past leaders.  As we know a typical response from some past declarations of past leaders is to suggest “it was only their opinion” meaning not the mind of the lord.  I suspect someday we’ll see the same from members when looking back on today’s leaders comments.  That’ll be quite a day I suppose, but I’m sure it’ll come gradually enough so as not to be very noteworthy seeming.  

It might prove a fairly interesting practice to find all, Or as many as possible, leaders’ words regarding lgbt (I know they wouldn’t be saying lgbt) from say the 70s and compare all declarations on the topic from leaders of the past 5 years.  I think the changing position found therein could be enlightening for us all.  

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On 8/2/2019 at 2:25 PM, alter idem said:

You think I buttressed your point?  Was your point that you, Stemelbow, have all the power within yourself to be make choices which are obedient to the will of God in this matter?  Each of us was sent here to earth to exercise agency, to choose.  Your choices determine the outcome for yourself.  If you choose to be obedient to the Laws of God, then you will receive the blessings that pertain to those laws.  The Gospel teaches that all will have the opportunity to choose, even those who 'don't know God and don't know the truth'.  They will one day, and they will be able to choose and enjoy all blessings.  Like the parable of the workers, it doesn't matter if you find out the truth in the morning, the afternoon, or the evening of the day you are invited to labor, you will receive the reward.  God has decreed it.  I don't know how it works in the next life, but as I said, I trust that God is what he claims to be, a loving, perfectly just Heavenly Father.  With the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be redeemed and become like them.  God does not excludes anyone, they choose to exclude themselves.

A person who is gay and knows the laws of God, excludes him/herself from his blessings, if they decide to act on their sexual impulses which God has called 'sin' and if they do not repent. If they are obedient to his laws, if they accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and do his will, then they will receive all that God has to offer, just like anyone else.

I think happyjack responded on this far better than I could.  But I wanted to add many people disagree with your opinion that gay people or anyone knows gods law on this.  I think Hafen has spoken presumptuously partly because there is no clear revelation on The matter.  He seems to be telling us his opinion of what gods law should be and nothing more.  If I’m wrong then by all means provide the text of the revelation and I’ll consider.  

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