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Inclusiveness and Gay Children of God

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"O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.

Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers.

How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ.

Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so."

Why stop with insisting we can't know about the afterlife? Can any of us know there even is an afterlife? Or that God even exists?

No knowledge. No prophecy. Just opinions and speculation. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, kllindley said:

"Why stop with insisting we can't know about the afterlife? Can any of us know there even is an afterlife? 

Actually there's truth with what you're saying here.  We honestly just have our strong faith and beliefs regarding that.  But, we do have some evidence from those who have passed over and returned to report their experiences.  Of course, that could all be a dream or minds playing tricks on us near our death.  I do strongly believe that our souls live on after this life.  The rest are hopes, I guess....and faith that we will be with our loved ones.

13 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Or that God even exists?

For me, this is something that I'm as close to knowing as anything.  I at least believe there is creation.... at pretty near a 100% certainty.    

Edited by ALarson
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4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

No, you fell off the cliff there. Who is the god of this world?  2 Cor 4:4 tells us explicitly:  4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Satan is the god of this world; he it is that blinds God's children to the Light of the gospel and twists their understanding of scripture. He it is that demands that we focus on our passions almost exclusively because in doing so we shut ourselves to the Spirit living in us. 

To die to oneself means to understand that God created each of us for a reason; that every individual is a part of God’s plan. To be used of God one must understand the essence of who we really are and how it is that God can use each of us. Every genuine child of God wants to be used by God to accomplish His purposes in the world — Jesus said, “Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples” (Jn 15:8). That is the essence of God’s plan – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10). We bear fruit when Christ lives His life in and through us (Jn 15:5; Gal 2:20). The apostle Paul said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil 1:21). The Lord wants us to live a godly and spiritually productive happy lives.

God is not about eat, drink and be merry - to sate our passions or to follow the life of the hedonist. We are meant for higher things. 

I don't believe anyone in this thread has advocated for hedonism. Creating that which has the ability to sin makes that creator the author of sin. The tempter is just that and people of faith give the tempter too much credit. "The devil made me do it!" is scapegoating, petulant, irrational, unreasonable and juvenile. 

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You know this how exactly? Or are you creating god in your own image?

Doesn't everyone to an extent? 

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I don't want to get into reparative legislation, antidemocratic hate crimes, and the politics of alleged victimhood.  Let's leave that alone.

I see that we're talking past each other.  I read in your offerings both accusation and enabling:  accusation that others, in upholding standards, lack compassion; and that, in order to be compassionate, one must excuse dysfunctional, antisocial, or whatever else you want to call sinful behavior, thus enabling it.

I am clear, at least in my own mind, on these issues.  I can weep for the homosexual to the extent he suffers.  I can also hold the apparently (but not really) antithetical thought that the homosexual who predates, threatens, tears down, acts out, or otherwise sins must not ever be excused because of his suffering.  Plenty of folks have suffered abuse and worse in this life without taking it out on others.

I don’t think we were going there. I wasn’t if that is what you are thinking.

I do think there is a shortage of empathy in this area though some of that may be from exhaustion. This issue has been tearing at many of our members and used as a weapon by our critics to the point that it is hard to want to care. I do not excuse their behavior but I do not truly condemn them either though I believe there is sin there.

I agree with most of your last paragraph. I have a personal conviction that one of the ways to make a sin much worse is to make it actively predatory and from what I know of my local gay community there is way too much predatory behavior. I admit I do sometimes want to excuse others from their sins when I know their story. I went in as a CASA volunteer with righteous indignation to save children from their derelict and abusive parents. Even in the guilty parents though I found humanity though and sometimes their actions were understandable even when they were unacceptable and needed to be stopped.

We are probably mostly on the same page though. The calligraphy we use to write it out just varies a bit.

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2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Can you quote what you're referencing?

Posted 7 hours ago (edited)

You said, “If I had been born gay, I don't know for sure where I'd be right now.  I hope I would be a follower of Christ and living His gospel…” Why would you suppose you might have any less faith, hope or grace just because of a different sexual orientation? I think this attitude denies our inherent spiritual nature to face social and societal challenges with the Lord's help. To paraphrase Alma 29:8, the opposition also descends upon all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to promote incorrect spiritual principles.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Doesn't everyone to an extent? 

Yes, but the greatest evidence to me that God exists outside of some remarkable supernatural/spiritual experiences is that sometimes when I commune with God I hit a wall. I get told no or get told to do something I find unpalatable and sometimes even unvirtuous. It is what convinces me that it is not all in my head. There is something resisting and guiding and sometimes dragging me kicking and screaming that is not me. I have been told things I think are wrong are right and those I think are right are wrong. If God verified everything I read and thought that appealed to me I would get suspicious so I run up against God a lot. I highly recommend the experience. It is jarring but also very fulfilling.

I have mentioned before that God often communicates to me in a sort of irreverent way including things like sarcasm and jokes. That might be my own mind converting the real communication into a form I understand or it could be the Holy Ghost knowing me well enough to communicate that way or maybe that is a distinction without a difference. In that sense God mimics our image because He condescends to communicate. There is an old Christian saying I cannot find that says that when God enters the ocean He becomes a fish. God communicates with us as we are which is why the communication is so imperfect. How we are is not very good.

Edited by The Nehor
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10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Posted 7 hours ago (edited)

You said, “If I had been born gay, I don't know for sure where I'd be right now.  I hope I would be a follower of Christ and living His gospel…” Why would you suppose you might have any less faith, hope or grace just because of a different sexual orientation? I think this attitude denies our inherent spiritual nature to face social and societal challenges with the Lord's help. To paraphrase Alma 29:8, the opposition also descends upon all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to promote incorrect spiritual principles.

Might be less married.

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36 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I don't believe anyone in this thread has advocated for hedonism. Creating that which has the ability to sin makes that creator the author of sin. The tempter is just that and people of faith give the tempter too much credit. "The devil made me do it!" is scapegoating, petulant, irrational, unreasonable and juvenile. 

I advocate for hedonism. I want more pleasure in my life.

As the devil Screwtape said of God:

“He’s a hedonist at heart. All those fasts and vigils and stakes and crosses are only a facade. Or only like foam on the sea shore. Out at sea, out in His sea, there is pleasure, and more pleasure. He makes no secret of it; at His right hand are ‘pleasures for evermore.’

Ugh! I don’t think He has the least inkling of that high and austere mystery to which we rise in the Miserific Vision. He’s vulgar, Wormwood. He has a bourgeois mind. He has filled His world full of pleasures.

There are things for humans to do all day long without His minding in the least– sleeping, washing, eating, drinking, making love, playing, praying, working. Everything has to be twisted before it’s any use to us. We fight under cruel disadvantages. Nothing is naturally on our side.”

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1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

Creating that which has the ability to sin makes that creator the author of sin.

Uh, nope, not in our belief system.  Our Father created Lucifer as one of his children, having the ability to choose to become either good or evil.  Some time after that Lucifer chose to sin and to not repent and thus became an evil person.

We all have the ability to sin and thus to become evil but that doesn't make our Father the author of sin.  To sin is easy.  All it takes is the ability to not do what it takes to be good, including to not repent when it is what we should do. 

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13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Uh, nope, not in our belief system.  Our Father created Lucifer as one of his children, having the ability to choose to become either good or evil.  Some time after that Lucifer chose to sin and to not repent and thus became an evil person.

We all have the ability to sin and thus to become evil but that doesn't make our Father the author of sin.  To sin is easy.  All it takes is the ability to not do what it takes to be good, including to not repent when it is what we should do. 

Here is a puzzler though. Adam and Eve got the knowledge of good and evil from eating some fruit.....so how did Lucifer get it?

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39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Here is a puzzler though. Adam and Eve got the knowledge of good and evil from eating some fruit.....so how did Lucifer get it?

When the Bible says that they ate some fruit, did they eat some fruit?  Was it literal fruit?  Was it metaphorical fruit?  (Inquiring minds want to know!)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I don't believe anyone in this thread has advocated for hedonism. Creating that which has the ability to sin makes that creator the author of sin. The tempter is just that and people of faith give the tempter too much credit. "The devil made me do it!" is scapegoating, petulant, irrational, unreasonable and juvenile. 

I don't think we disagree on your point; I just don't know what that has to do with what I stated. My focus was on the necessity to die to self so that Christ could live through us; living a life in accordance with the Gospel. 

Val, you seem to have made some monumental changes in your belief system over the last few years. I don't recognize the same fellow I used to talk to about these things. 

Edited by Storm Rider

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think we were going there. I wasn’t if that is what you are thinking.

I do think there is a shortage of empathy in this area though some of that may be from exhaustion. This issue has been tearing at many of our members and used as a weapon by our critics to the point that it is hard to want to care. I do not excuse their behavior but I do not truly condemn them either though I believe there is sin there.

I agree with most of your last paragraph. I have a personal conviction that one of the ways to make a sin much worse is to make it actively predatory and from what I know of my local gay community there is way too much predatory behavior. I admit I do sometimes want to excuse others from their sins when I know their story. I went in as a CASA volunteer with righteous indignation to save children from their derelict and abusive parents. Even in the guilty parents though I found humanity though and sometimes their actions were understandable even when they were unacceptable and needed to be stopped.

We are probably mostly on the same page though. The calligraphy we use to write it out just varies a bit.

Pax!

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Just now, USU78 said:

Pax!

Really, after all this talk about sin you want a kiss?

Okay fine, but no tongue.

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but the greatest evidence to me that God exists outside of some remarkable supernatural/spiritual experiences is that sometimes when I commune with God I hit a wall. I get told no or get told to do something I find unpalatable and sometimes even unvirtuous. It is what convinces me that it is not all in my head. There is something resisting and guiding and sometimes dragging me kicking and screaming that is not me. I have been told things I think are wrong are right and those I think are right are wrong. If God verified everything I read and thought that appealed to me I would get suspicious so run up against God a lot. I highly recommend the experience. It is jarring but also very fulfilling.

I have mentioned before that God often communicates to me in a sort of irreverent way including things like sarcasm and jokes. That might be my own mind converting the real communication into a form I understand or it could be the Holy Ghost knowing me well enough to communicate that way or maybe that is a distinction without a difference. In that sense God mimics our image because He condescends to communicate. There is an old Christian saying I cannot find that says that when God enters the ocean He becomes a fish. God communicates with us as we are which is why the communication is so imperfect. How we are is not very good.

I think this is the best post anyone has provided me with about how God communicates with them. Beautiful response and thank you, Nehor.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Uh, nope, not in our belief system.  Our Father created Lucifer as one of his children, having the ability to choose to become either good or evil.  Some time after that Lucifer chose to sin and to not repent and thus became an evil person.

We all have the ability to sin and thus to become evil but that doesn't make our Father the author of sin.  To sin is easy.  All it takes is the ability to not do what it takes to be good, including to not repent when it is what we should do. 

If God is not the author of sin then what truly is sin?

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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't think we disagree on your point; I just don't know what that has to do with what I stated. My focus was on the necessity to die to self so that Christ could live through us; living a life in accordance with the Gospel. 

Val, you seem to have made some monumental changes in your belief system over the last few years. I don't recognize the same fellow I used to talk to about these things. 

It's probably because not only can I not make sense of what I believe but I'm not sure I know what I believe.

Perhaps I should ask nothing of God and simply let Him be Him whatever that means and exorcise myself of any expectations. 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Really, after all this talk about sin you want a kiss?

Okay fine, but no tongue.

Well that's rude. Frenching is fun!!

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16 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

Well that's rude. Frenching is fun!!

I am not that kind of guy. I have standards. You have to buy me dinner first.

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3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

When the Bible says that they ate some fruit, did they eat some fruit?  Was it literal fruit?  Was it metaphorical fruit?  (Inquiring minds want to know!)

I believe so and yes, I suspect it is literal. I do not think the original plan though was for them to eat it so early in the process.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Might be less married.

Perhaps, but he might also be less married in consideration of a number of other extant factors, and only for the relative short-term. Marriage between a man and a woman is not determined by sexual orientation, and while it is a commandment, the mortal ordinance may be delayed due to choices and circumstances yet kept in spirit, in which case (all else being equal) one's faith, hope and grace would play out irrespective of sexual orientation.

Edited by CV75

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15 hours ago, ALarson said:

But, we do have some evidence from those who have passed over and returned to report their experiences.

Did any of them expound on their sexual orientation? If so, why do you think that is; if not, why not?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, CV75 said:

Posted 7 hours ago (edited)

You said, “If I had been born gay, I don't know for sure where I'd be right now.  I hope I would be a follower of Christ and living His gospel…” 

Here's my entire quote:

"If I had been born gay, I don't know for sure where I'd be right now.  I hope I would be a follower of Christ and living His gospel....gay or not....church member or not."

Do you think that statement "suggested that being gay would separate you out from knowing what is good"?  If so, you've misunderstood. (did you see the "gay or not" part that you left off when you quoted me?)

I was saying that it shouldn't matter whether one is gay or heterosexual when it comes to being a follower of Christ and living His gospel.

Edited by ALarson

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Did any of them expound on their sexual orientation? 

I have no idea about that.  I was responding to kllindley's post "Can any of us know there even is an afterlife?"

Edited by ALarson

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