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Inclusiveness and Gay Children of God

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not gay but I have asked for this. I am in good company. The Savior would have opted out if there was another way.

Oh, I know...me too.  I'm just saying that those who are gay do not expect to not suffer the same physical (and mental) illnesses that others suffer with (or handicaps)....in broad and general terms.  But of course we all hope for relief or ask to ease (or remove) our suffering at times. 

Edited by ALarson

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16 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Don't know how.  Check up around 5 posts +/-.

I did find it (and edited my post).

I ask again:  

17 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Specifically what suffering are you referring to that you believe those who are gay are asking to escape from in this life?

 

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5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I did not suggest that they cannot be held to the same moral standards. I just empathize that some of those standards are harder because some drives have no permitted outlet and that one covenant and ordinance is unlikely to be attainable. I am also not surprised if they give up on the whole thing but I am not surprised when people leave over other things as well. I do not enable. I just do not condemn. I do believe the final judgment will factor in degree of difficulty. If that is enabling so be it.

My wife and I have been watching Mad Men for the first time on Netflix.  The central character, born to a hooker and a philandering farmer, losing his mother at birth, losing his father as a child, raised in a cathouse, sexually abused by the workers, grew up to be incapable of doing good, being loyal, and yet was capable of enormous generosity at times.  Yes, it's fictional.  But he is not permitted an outlet for the inevitable drives that informed all of his choices as a result of his birth and rearing.  Life is tough, and bad choices lead to generational dysfunctions.  You keep giving homosexuals an "out."  They aren't a special case, even though they want to be and you want to give it to them for whatever reason.

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Life is cruel. I actually admire your stoic take on afflictions and the evils of this world. I wish I could copy it but I do not seem to have that capability. I have to deal with pain in different ways.

I ain't stoic.  I'm a griper, too.  But griping hasn't brought me any relief.  Forgiveness of self and others takes a lot of time and effort, but it seems to do the trick for me.

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I would argue it does matter whether they existed. As a myth it works as man choosing to fall against God’s will and a redemption happening but with Latter-day Saint insights as to God wanting it to happen it becomes less clear. If the plan from the beginning was the Fall had to happen why all this rigamarole in the Garden? Why not start in a fallen world? We all agreed before the world started to be there. Why did our first parents have to kick that off when everyone agreed? Why did God forbid something He wanted to happen? Why not lay out the two options and forbid nothing? Why was Satan stupid enough to kick the thing off when he was in the initial council? Why let him into the Garden at all? So much seems off. Sorry, I will end this tangent.

The Temple makes clear that the choice was before them and, hence, before us, since we are to learn from their sad and tragic situation how we are to behave in extremis.  It is in those desperate moments when life overwhelms us, like Eve was overwhelmed by the voices in her head and in her ear, that we must take the leap of faith, do the difficult sometimes terrible thing, and trust G-d will make it right, even though we in our confusion may well have screwed up.  He is kinder than we sometimes imagine.

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I understand that's what you believe.  But you're stating all this as if it's a known fact.  You're doing a whole lot of speculating here.....

And your usage of normal (in scare quotes) is a big part of the problem here.  Those who are gay are normal and feel normal affection for others. 

I used the word normal with quotes because that's the word Elder Haden used in his statement, and yes I do consider it a fact that there is a "normal" way of seeing each other, as brothers and sisters.   Which is the way we saw each other before we came down here as we were born on this planet.  Which is the way we will see each other again when the veil is lifted and we see ourselves as we did before we came down here to be tested by all that we can experience while we are here.

I think it's helpful to realize that we have adapted somewhat to whatever culture we were born into and raised with while being influenced with things/thoughts/feelings which were either good or not good for us.  Including influences affecting how we now feel about men as well as women.  In today's world it's considered "okay" to do things which are not really okay to do. And also "okay" to not do some things that we really should do.  We can learn from making mistakes though and sometimes that is the only way some people are able to learn, because they do not heed good counsel when it is given to them.  And sometimes that is because things are not explained and clarified well enough so that they, some people, can understand why they should do or not do those certain things.  They instead get the feeling and support in the idea that it is okay to do whatever they feel like doing, whatever they want, whatever gratifies they carnal senses, even when it goes against the good influences that are promoting what is good or better for them to be doing.

Loving someone of the same sex is not a bad thing, though, and we should be careful to avoid giving the wrong impression.  Whenever anyone who identifies themselves as a "gay" or "lesbian" talks about how they love someone of the same sex we should not make them feel as if loving that person is a bad thing to do.   In fact we want them to love that person even more than they love them right now.  We want them to do what is good for themselves as well as for that other person.  Whatever will lift them up and give them access to all of the blessings available from our Lord and our Father in heaven.  

Edited by Ahab
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23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And, my answer still stands.  No one who is gay is asking to get out of all the sufferings in this life that others suffer with.

As an example of one type of suffering and its consequences, you suggested that being gay would separate you out from knowing what is good. Can you explain why being gay would have that kind of impact on your faith, and describe how you might be healed from that through the Atonement of Christ?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I used the word normal with quotes because that's the word Elder Haden used in his statement,

Ok.  And that's the word that many objected to (even active, faithful members of the church felt that was offensive).  What's "normal"?  When we're talking about sex, that can mean all kinds of things 😉

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Which is the way we saw each other before we came down here as we were born on this planet.

I'm not sure what you're even referring to here.  Do you believe we were with our spouses prior to coming to earth? 

And...

The rest of your post is just weird, odd and creepy....

I respect that you believe all that you state (but disagree with a whole lot of it!).  Let's just leave it at that.

Edited by ALarson

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As an example of one type of suffering and its consequences, you suggested that being gay would separate you out from knowing what is good. Can you explain why being gay would have that kind of impact on your faith, and describe how you might be healed from that through the Atonement of Christ?

Can you quote what you're referencing?

Edited by ALarson

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2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok.  And that's the word that many objected to (even active, faithful members of the church felt that was offensive).  What's "normal"?  When we're talking about sex, that can mean all kinds of things 😉

I'm not sure what you're even referring to here.  Do you believe we were with our spouses prior to coming to earth? 

And...

The rest of your post is just weird, odd and creepy....

I respect that you believe all that you state (but disagree with a whole lot of it!).  Let's just leave it at that.

The word normal refers to the norm/standard/general consensus on an issue, and when we were in heaven before we came down here we saw each other as brothers or sisters, depending on what their/our gender was then, which is also the way we will see each other again when the veil is lifted and we remember all that we knew before we came down here to be tested.  Flashback!  Aha!  Now I remember!

You can call whatever you want to call weird, odd and creepy but someday you'll see how things really are and you'll also remember everything you have now forgotten.  Look forward to it!

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The word normal refers to the norm/standard/general consensus on an issue, and when we were in heaven before we came down here we saw each other as brothers or sisters, depending on what their/our gender was then, which is also the way we will see each other again when the veil is lifted and we remember all that we knew before we came down here to be tested. 

That's all speculation on your part, but you state it as if these are known facts.  I understand it's what you believe....but you can't know all of this.

I'm not saying that I disagree....just that none of us really knows how it's going to be after we die.

And, I'm not sure what this even has to do with being gay or heterosexual.  Are you saying you believe that men will be with the men they loved on earth (or prior to earth life) and women can be with the woman they love here (if they are gay)?   Or men will be able to be with the woman they love?  Etc.?

If so....I agree.

 

Edited by ALarson

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31 minutes ago, USU78 said:

My wife and I have been watching Mad Men for the first time on Netflix.  The central character, born to a hooker and a philandering farmer, losing his mother at birth, losing his father as a child, raised in a cathouse, sexually abused by the workers, grew up to be incapable of doing good, being loyal, and yet was capable of enormous generosity at times.  Yes, it's fictional.  But he is not permitted an outlet for the inevitable drives that informed all of his choices as a result of his birth and rearing.  Life is tough, and bad choices lead to generational dysfunctions.  You keep giving homosexuals an "out."  They aren't a special case, even though they want to be and you want to give it to them for whatever reason.

I ain't stoic.  I'm a griper, too.  But griping hasn't brought me any relief.  Forgiveness of self and others takes a lot of time and effort, but it seems to do the trick for me.

The Temple makes clear that the choice was before them and, hence, before us, since we are to learn from their sad and tragic situation how we are to behave in extremis.  It is in those desperate moments when life overwhelms us, like Eve was overwhelmed by the voices in her head and in her ear, that we must take the leap of faith, do the difficult sometimes terrible thing, and trust G-d will make it right, even though we in our confusion may well have screwed up.  He is kinder than we sometimes imagine.

I am not giving them an “out” and have repeatedly stated that I am not. I am giving empathy and realizing their burden is probably heavier then mine. Why do you insist that somehow I am pretending they get a free pass? Are you worried they might get something you don’t?

Griping has brought me all kinds of relief.

I do not think that is the primary lesson to be learned about the garden. I am also not convinced that are was overwhelmed and confused when she made her choice. Nor do I think Adam was.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The word normal refers to the norm/standard/general consensus on an issue, and when we were in heaven before we came down here we saw each other as brothers or sisters, depending on what their/our gender was then, which is also the way we will see each other again when the veil is lifted and we remember all that we knew before we came down here to be tested.  Flashback!  Aha!  Now I remember!

You can call whatever you want to call weird, odd and creepy but someday you'll see how things really are and you'll also remember everything you have now forgotten.  Look forward to it!

While I’m not a fan of calling any other member creepy, I do think it might be a tad arrogant (?) to presume you have more insight into how things “really are” beyond the veil than any of the rest of us slugs have.  All opinions welcome, of course. But they are only that. 

I can see how sex, food, and money (hormones, hunger and greed) would likely look much different in an exalted or even just resurrected state.  But we are truly clueless. 

I can see how attraction might be a social construct.  If it is, then certainly we can choose to be drawn to whomever we need to be drawn to for whatever reason.  But that’s a really tough pill for any human to swallow. I don’t prrsonally expect many to achieve it. 

Edited by MustardSeed

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17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You can call whatever you want to call weird, odd and creepy but someday you'll see how things really are and you'll also remember everything you have now forgotten.

Yes, and so will you. You might be surprised and learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself and for everyone else ;))

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12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, and so will you. You might be surprised and learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself and for everyone else ;))

i only know what I know, I don't claim to know what I don't know, and what I don't know today could be something I'll learn tomorrow.

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25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That's all speculation on your part, but you state it as if these are known facts.  I understand it's what you believe....but you can't know all of this.

I'm not saying that I disagree....just that none of us really knows how it's going to be after we die.

And, I'm not sure what this even has to do with being gay or heterosexual.  Are you saying you believe that men will be with the men they loved on earth (or prior to earth life) and women can be with the woman they love here (if they are gay)?   Or men will be able to be with the woman they love?  Etc.?

If so....I agree.

 

No, I wasn't saying what you were speculating I might have been saying and if I would have said that then those would have been my words and not yours.

What i said was very simple doctrine and yes I do know that is how it was and how it will be... that we will see each other as brothers and sisters just as we did before we came down here. 

It seems that you may not have seen this memo or any others like it:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-children-of-heavenly-parents?lang=eng

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4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, I wasn't saying what you were speculating I might have been saying and if I would have said that then those would have been my words and not yours.

Well, we're ALL just speculating here (you included).  But I believe we will be with those we love and no one will be forced to be with someone they don't want to be with (ie: forced to live polygamy).

As far as procreation in the next life, we simply do not know much about that.  I believe there will be all combinations of "families" there just as there is here.  

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35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

While I’m not a fan of calling any other member creepy, I do think it might be a tad arrogant (?) to presume you have more insight into how things “really are” beyond the veil than any of the rest of us slugs have.  All opinions welcome, of course. But they are only that. 

I can see how sex, food, and money (hormones, hunger and greed) would likely look much different in an exalted or even just resurrected state.  But we are truly clueless. 

I can see how attraction might be a social construct.  If it is, then certainly we can choose to be drawn to whomever we need to be drawn to for whatever reason.  But that’s a really tough pill for any human to swallow. I don’t prrsonally expect many to achieve it. 

You do realize we are all at different levels of knowledge and intelligence, right?  What I shared in this case was very basic doctrine, perhaps just presented in a way that you did not recognize it. 

But yes I do know some things that some others on this website do not know, yet, and I also realize there are likely some people who post here who know some things that I haven't learned, yet.

We have been told quite a bit about how life will continue after this stage of existence, so to state that "we" are truly clueless is a gross misrepresentation of what "we" know about what "we" have been told, collectively.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You do realize we are all at different levels of knowledge and intelligence, right?  What I shared in this case was very basic doctrine, perhaps just presented in a way that you did not recognize it. 

But yes I do know some things that some others on this website do not know, yet, and I also realize there are likely some people who post here who know some things that I haven't learned, yet.

We have been told quite a bit about how life will continue after this stage of existence, so to state that "we" are truly clueless is a gross misrepresentation of what "we" know about what "we" have been told, collectively.

We’re pretty clueless about how spirit children are created.  

Do you believe there will be sex between males and females after this life?  Pregnancies?

Edited by JulieM
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6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, we're ALL just speculating here (you included).  But I believe we will be with those we love and no one will be forced to be with someone they don't want to be with (ie: forced to live polygamy).

As far as procreation in the next life, we simply do not know much about that.  I believe there will be all combinations of "families" there just as there is here.  

I'm not going to continue to tell you I know things while you just keep responding with your claim that I am only speculating.  You appear to be speculating but I am stating that I know what I have said I do know and it is very basic doctrine. 

If you would like to know if it is true there is a way you can find out that it is, and that is the way I have found out.  Not just by reading or hearing what some prophet has said but by God confirming the truth of his message to me.

Again, this is just basic doctrine.  Milk stuff.  Meat would come next but you don't seem to be ready for it.  And I'm talking about the meat we have already been given, generally, on this issue.

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1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Well, we’re pretty clueless about how spirit children are created.  

Do you believe there will be sex between males and females after this life?  Pregnancies?

I believe there will be sexual relations between a husband and his wife, yes, and I believe there will also be other ways for a man and his wife to create their own children. We already know of multiple ways for it to happen, but the basic components will all be the same.

Sex is not something I am going to just forget all about, and my wife doesn't plan to forget it either.  Or at the least if we do there will be a way for us to remember and celebrate the experience all over again.

You don't have to believe me but I do know where babies come from, or at least one of the ways we will be able to make them.

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2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I believe there will be sexual relations between a husband and his wife, yes, and I believe there will also be other ways for a man and his wife to create their own children. We already know of multiple ways for it to happen, but the basic components will all be the same.

Sex is not something I am going to just forget all about, and my wife doesn't plan to forget it either.  Or at the least if we do there will be a way for us to remember and celebrate the experience all over again.

You don't have to believe me but I do know where babies come from, or at least one of the ways we will be able to make them.

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1h

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Just now, Ahab said:

I believe there will be sexual relations between a husband and his wife, yes, and I believe there will also be other ways for a man and his wife to create their own children. We already know of multiple ways for it to happen, but the basic components will all be the same.

Sex is not something I am going to just forget all about, and my wife doesn't plan to forget it either.  Or at the least if we do there will be a way for us to remember and celebrate the experience all over again.

You don't have to believe me but I do know where babies come from, or at least one of the ways we will be able to make them.

Sex in heaven?  More speculating if that's what you're claiming here.

And yes, some of what you believe is not as speculative as other things you're posting here.  But if we're being honest....we really do not know how it's going to be after this life.  We can put our trust into certain statements from those we trust and we can pray and go by our own feelings.  It still comes down to speculating and believing and hoping.....(not knowing).

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13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I'm not going to continue to tell you I know things while you just keep responding with your claim that I am only speculating.  You appear to be speculating but I am stating that I know what I have said I do know and it is very basic doctrine. 

If you would like to know if it is true there is a way you can find out that it is, and that is the way I have found out.  Not just by reading or hearing what some prophet has said but by God confirming the truth of his message to me.

Again, this is just basic doctrine.  Milk stuff.  Meat would come next but you don't seem to be ready for it. 

And.... I'm done with this conversation (with you). 

You most definitely are speculating.  I respect your right to believe what you choose to believe....

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am not giving them an “out” and have repeatedly stated that I am not. I am giving empathy and realizing their burden is probably heavier then mine. Why do you insist that somehow I am pretending they get a free pass? Are you worried they might get something you don’t? {snip}

I don't want to get into reparative legislation, antidemocratic hate crimes, and the politics of alleged victimhood.  Let's leave that alone.

I see that we're talking past each other.  I read in your offerings both accusation and enabling:  accusation that others, in upholding standards, lack compassion; and that, in order to be compassionate, one must excuse dysfunctional, antisocial, or whatever else you want to call sinful behavior, thus enabling it.

I am clear, at least in my own mind, on these issues.  I can weep for the homosexual to the extent he suffers.  I can also hold the apparently (but not really) antithetical thought that the homosexual who predates, threatens, tears down, acts out, or otherwise sins must not ever be excused because of his suffering.  Plenty of folks have suffered abuse and worse in this life without taking it out on others.

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2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And.... I'm done with this conversation (with you). 

You most definitely are speculating.  I respect your right to believe what you choose to believe....

Me: No, I'm not speculating on this issue, as I have told you repeatedly now.

You: Yes you are.

Me: No I'm not.

You: Yes you are.

Me: No I'm not.

You: Yes you are.

Me: No I'm not.

... etc, forever, and you never would or will know how much "I" know about this even with me continually telling you what "I" know forever and ever.

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1h

😂😂😂

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