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Inclusiveness and Gay Children of God

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19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I intend to reach that point. I do believe perfection can be daunting specifically because people often ascribe the failings of fallen flesh to eternal inadequacies. Recognizing what problems we should work on in ourselves and what is just a temporary affliction to be endured but not repented of makes life a lot easier.

But what if you just turn bi and double your options? Surely you could not object to that. ;) 

Being bisexual is being selfish. Lol. Could you imagine the disaster that would be bisexual eternal polygamy? Good grief!

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Interesting statistic here. In the article SLC, Utah is listed as the 7th in the nation's cities that is the gayest with the most population. http://www.newnownext.com/americas-10-gayest-and-least-gay-cities-revealed-in-new-poll/03/2015/

This is probably why so many Utah LDS, had an issue with the church's previous policy with gays being members of the church. And why the leaders changed it back so quickly. They saw the fall out I'm sure. It's because there are so many with a relative or friend that is gay. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Surely the LDS view is that you can reign in either.

The poster I quoted paraphrased Satan's slap at the Father.  I thought it appropriate to give context in case anybody missed the reference.

That said, Section 121 certainly applies here:  Those who gain celestial glory are presumed to have chosen a life of persuasion and love unfeigned rather than unrighteous dominion.

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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Well, I have never been to hell to compare the two, but I can vouch that being straight is not all that bad 😁

Hahahaha! I'm here because of heterosexuality so I can't be against it in principle. We need straight people to give all God's LGBTQ spirit babies a human body to advance His work and glory.

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8 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

No reigning on my part. I expect long and deserving torture befitting pond scum such as I.

Yeah, I pretty much expect the same:

l-30827-the-fact-that-theres-a-highway-t

 

Fortunately I have a backup plan:

tESvhkz.png

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6 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

Being bisexual is being selfish. Lol. Could you imagine the disaster that would be bisexual eternal polygamy? Good grief!

Disaster? Or opportunity?

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Honestly, I don’t even know if there is a place for someone who is gay in the Celestial Kingdom.  I am just trusting God that he has a plan for me.  It is hard to work towards something that might not be possible. I sometimes am envious of those who are straight.  Everything seems more clear. 

In all your interactions with me you’ve demonstrated that you have a kind and open heart.  I also admire your determination to try to fit together  the pieces of life’s puzzle.  With those characteristics going for you, my humble opinion is anything is possible for you.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I pretty much expect the same:

l-30827-the-fact-that-theres-a-highway-t

 

Fortunately I have a backup plan:

tESvhkz.png

I want to give you so many rep points for this!! Damn you, Nehor!!

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Disaster? Or opportunity?

How an opportunity?!?!

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31 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I'd rather be gay in the deepest pit of hell than a gay turned straight man in heaven.

I don't know. I've had several gay friends over the years say something to the effect of, 'if being gay were really a choice, I would chose to be straight.' 

If they would be willing to change now, in mortality, largely for social convenience, I don't see why they would be ardently opposed to the idea when their eternal salvation is on the line.

Then again, if someone wants to dwell "in the deepest pit of hell," well, that's their choice. I am reminded of the words of one of my favorite hymns: "For this eternal truth is giv'n: That God will force no man to heav'n." 

Sounds about right to me.

 

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1 minute ago, Amulek said:

I don't know. I've had several gay friends over the years say something to the effect of, 'if being gay were really a choice, I would chose to be straight.' 

If they would be willing to change now, in mortality, largely for social convenience, I don't see why they would be ardently opposed to the idea when their eternal salvation is on the line.

Then again, if someone wants to dwell "in the deepest pit of hell," well, that's their choice. I am reminded of the words of one of my favorite hymns: "For this eternal truth is giv'n: That God will force no man to heav'n." 

Sounds about right to me.

 

Being an eternally gay child of God has given me strength and deepened my love and respect for my Father in heaven.

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11 hours ago, california boy said:

At a conference in Honolulu Hawaii, in 1961 Joseph Fielding Smith made this statement over the pulpit

This meets the exact same criteria as Elder Hafen's remarks.  Is this also revelation from God?

I actually disagree that the two statements are similar in weight.  

Elder Hafen's statement was made in 2008. A year earlier the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve had published the booklet "God Loveth His Children."  This booklet contained the extended quote I shared earlier about the doctrine of eternal marriage between man and woman, the incompatibility of same-sex relationships with God's plan, and the promise that all feelings and desires would be refined in the resurrection so that those who desire will fend a fullness of joy in a heterosexual relationship.  His statement was reaffirming their unified teaching. 

Was there any comparable published statement about space travel that had the endorsement of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve at the time Joseph Fielding Smith spoke on Hawaii?

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Quote

Matthew 5:48 King James Version (KJV)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

In temporal form it is unrealistic. Perfection assumes you have nothing more to learn or progress. Because of my faith in God I'm able to be grateful and be humbled by my inability to ever be omnipotent or omniscient like He is.

 

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2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Never mind. The mental gymnastics of unpacking your response are too exhausting to qualify your post with a response of substance.

I'll just concede that the church has never sinned nor will it ever sin because it's perfect and the "kingdom of god" on earth and imply all other positive platitudes the church is due.

Sarcasm is the only response worth giving?  Is that really what this is about?  So the LDS Church is a liar's church filled with perfect Zoramites?  That is actually your position?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, USU78 said:

I'm having trouble following you here.  Diversity isn't the issue as I see it.  Morally turpidudinous decisions by nation-states and individuals is.

Abortion on demand is one such decision.

Preservation of nuclear family is another such decision.

Putting children and youth into risky situations without regard to risk because of political expedience.

IMNSHO homosexual marriage is another.  

One can be inviting of others, regardless of the moral turpitude of their personal decisions, without putting self, family, community, or nation-state at risk, so long as the others agree to abide by the moral strictures of one's home, family, community, or nation-state.  One must be free to enforce those strictures, however.  Impositions upon the individual, family, community, or nation-state from without are the stuff of Babylon.  Homosexual marriage is one such.  Abortion on demand is another.  Policies inimical to home and family yet another.  Putting children and youth into risky situations without regard to risk because of political expedience probably the worst of all.

America is about pluralism and tolerance, while a church may be about ethics and morals -- value judgments, which are not part of our legal structure.  The U.S. Constitution is about the rule of law, not theology.

Oh, and by the way, I consider the nuclear family to be sub-par.  I think that God prefers the extended family, which is superior in every way.

ETA: Rick Phillips, “Saints in Zion, Saints in Babylon: Religious Pluralism and the Transformation of Mormon Culture,” doctoral dissertation (Rutgers Univ., 2001).  Online at https://www.academia.edu/9832129/Saints_in_Zion_Saints_in_Babylon_Religious_Pluralism_and_the_Transformation_of_Mormon_Culture?email_work_card=title  .

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

Being an eternally gay child of God has given me strength and deepened my love and respect for my Father in heaven.

That eternally "gay" concept just never sits well with me. It conflicts so strongly, completely with my understanding of being one with the Father that I cringe when I hear it....or shake my head. 
My understanding tells me that regardless of my own weaknesses, shortcomings, sins, etc., as long as I desire to take his name upon me, to follow him, to die to myself as I live in him, then his Atonement fully sanctifies me and I am made one with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The descriptors that we might use in this life have no meaning. Those ordinances that have been sealed with the Priesthood are eternal and are evidence of our desire to follow him. 

Just some thoughts worth about two cents.

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13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sarcasm is the only response worth giving?  Is that really what this is about?  So the LDS Church is a liar's church filled with perfect Zoramites?  That is actually your position?

No. It's frustrating that policy does not allow for the church to look at itself critically from the perspective of those who do not feel welcomed or those who feel marginalized or ostracized. Therefore, because the leadership of the church is more like protectors of a corporation rather than a college of prophets in a traditional sense this perspective can never fully be grasped or understood by the church. Jesus's words "they know not what they do" emphatically resounds concerning the church and this subject.

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3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

That eternally "gay" concept just never sits well with me. It conflicts so strongly, completely with my understanding of being one with the Father that I cringe when I hear it....or shake my head. 
My understanding tells me that regardless of my own weaknesses, shortcomings, sins, etc., as long as I desire to take his name upon me, to follow him, to die to myself as I live in him, then his Atonement fully sanctifies me and I am made one with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The descriptors that we might use in this life have no meaning. Those ordinances that have been sealed with the Priesthood are eternal and are evidence of our desire to follow him. 

Just some thoughts worth about two cents.

Just the same...eternally straight should be equally cringe worthy. 

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53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Matthew 5:48

I figured this would come up. Jesus is not unrealistically expecting us to be perfect like God. He's telling us to strive for more and better and to be the very best of ourselves that glorifies the Father.

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1 minute ago, Valentinus said:

Just the same...eternally straight should be equally cringe worthy. 

Val, I guess I don't even think in that term. I guess my sexual orientation is meaningless to me because it has never been in conflict with God's instructions, teachings, commandments to his children from the beginning of time. Having no conflict it melts into my unconscious thought. However, those areas where I struggle to observe God's commands are front and center. They are where my prayers and thoughts stay because they demonstrate my complete state of being a sinner before God. 

I do find it strange that when Gay people feel compelled to being Gay first and then a child of God. The world goes to hell in a handbasket, but what is most important is that you, the collective you, be gay. Why is that? I don't think that exists among those that are straight. 

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3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Val, I guess I don't even think in that term. I guess my sexual orientation is meaningless to me because it has never been in conflict with God's instructions, teachings, commandments to his children from the beginning of time. Having no conflict it melts into my unconscious thought. However, those areas where I struggle to observe God's commands are front and center. They are where my prayers and thoughts stay because they demonstrate my complete state of being a sinner before God. 

I do find it strange that when Gay people feel compelled to being Gay first and then a child of God. The world goes to hell in a handbasket, but what is most important is that you, the collective you, be gay. Why is that? I don't think that exists among those that are straight. 

If you would be denied exaltation unless you were sealed in a same sex marriage I think it would be a little different.

I am not arguing for it but you cannot claim equivalency here.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Val, I guess I don't even think in that term. I guess my sexual orientation is meaningless to me because it has never been in conflict with God's instructions, teachings, commandments to his children from the beginning of time. Having no conflict it melts into my unconscious thought. However, those areas where I struggle to observe God's commands are front and center. They are where my prayers and thoughts stay because they demonstrate my complete state of being a sinner before God. 

I do find it strange that when Gay people feel compelled to being Gay first and then a child of God. The world goes to hell in a handbasket, but what is most important is that you, the collective you, be gay. Why is that? I don't think that exists among those that are straight. 

Then let me clarify. I am a child of God divinely created to be attracted to men.

Edited by Valentinus
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28 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

I figured this would come up. Jesus is not unrealistically expecting us to be perfect like God. He's telling us to strive for more and better and to be the very best of ourselves that glorifies the Father.

One could argue that being "perfect" really means being "whole" or "complete".

Is a gay person truly "whole" or "complete" if they don't/can't accept their gayness? I don't know the answer, and I am not wanting to cast aspersions on any gay/SSA person who chooses not to accept his/her gayness. It's just a rhetorical question.

But I think it's worth thinking about. Could the admonition to "be ye therefore perfect" actually mean that a gay person should be complete with loving relationships, just like a hetero person as they strive to be the best, most complete, most perfect version of themselves?

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As an aside, some people’s perfectionism is merely a defense mechanism against fears of inadequacy.  I know two people with obsessive compulsive personality disorder and it’s debilitating. 

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1 hour ago, Valentinus said:

No. It's frustrating that policy does not allow for the church to look at itself critically from the perspective of those who do not feel welcomed or those who feel marginalized or ostracized. Therefore, because the leadership of the church is more like protectors of a corporation rather than a college of prophets in a traditional sense this perspective can never fully be grasped or understood by the church. Jesus's words "they know not what they do" emphatically resounds concerning the church and this subject.

But wouldn't ordinary boundary maintenance give the same result anyhow?  Humans are always going to make errors, no matter their best intentions.  The LDS Church, after all, doesn't function at all like the Hutterites or Amish.  The culture is utterly different.  What key recommendations do you feel would make a crucial difference for the Church -- such that your critique might be softened?  Is it more a matter of style, or substance?

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